True power of Archer (spoilers)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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BlackTornado
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Unread post by BlackTornado » January 15th, 2009, 2:28 pm

Rikh wrote:
abscess wrote:I doubt Arc can create any weapon. So the answer would most likely be a simple no.
I have a question though, Are Excalibur and Arc of the same nature? I mean, the question sounds really stupid, I know, but they both have a relation to the Earth, the word was created by it and Arc is backed by it. Perhaps they have something in common that I've missed.... dunno if I'm making any sense...
Arc has become the bone of her sword
rofl...

On the topic of caliburn's power and all that, it is visited previously in this thread. I will summarize a few conclusions from my memory:

1. As its stated that Caliburn is used more for ceremonial purposes, its rank as a weapon is lower than Excalibur

2. Attacks above rank B can damage berserker. NPs above rank B can do so too. Although NPs lower than rank B are probably more powerful than attacks of rank A, they still get blocked. That's the system

3. NP status refers to the activated attack like excaliblast. Its rank does not reflect the rank of the weapon itself. How strength translates into attacking power its not known, but its suggested that rank A strength probably causes rank A attacks, with small deviations due to the rank of weapons. After all, a really strong guy swing a stick can hurt a lot. But against God Hand, low ranking weapons will break. (The stick swung against a wall by a strong guy breaks) Berserker might still suffer damage

4. Since Excalibur with prana burst did not do much against berserker, Caliburn as an attack should not do much either. So it makes sense that the real name of Caliburn is invoked. But as Shirou was suffering from cranial pain, he may not have registered Saber saying it. Again this is mere speculation.

5. Plot device rank EX buff ftw
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Unread post by Xanathos » January 15th, 2009, 6:11 pm

Rikh wrote:
abscess wrote:I doubt Arc can create any weapon. So the answer would most likely be a simple no.
I have a question though, Are Excalibur and Arc of the same nature? I mean, the question sounds really stupid, I know, but they both have a relation to the Earth, the word was created by it and Arc is backed by it. Perhaps they have something in common that I've missed.... dunno if I'm making any sense...
Arc has become the bone of her sword
And Arc is the boner of her sword? LOL what?
quoted from fuyuki wiki:

Excalibur - Sword of Promised Victory
The sword of light.

A divine construction, forged by the planet. The pinnacle of holy swords. The stored wishes of mankind that had become crystallized and tempered within the planet. It had been guarded by the extensions of the planet (High Spirits/fairies) but had passed briefly into the hands of a King Arthur.

Marble Phantasm
It is the ability of an elemental or True Ancestor to connect their will to nature, to interfere on probabilities, and to transfigure the surrounding world at will according to their vision of the world. As the user is part of nature, he can change the world as he wishes, but in the end, what an elemental can act on is only something within the scope of nature.

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Unread post by Rikh » January 15th, 2009, 11:35 pm

Xanathos wrote: Marble Phantasm
It is the ability of an elemental or True Ancestor to connect their will to nature, to interfere on probabilities, and to transfigure the surrounding world at will according to their vision of the world. As the user is part of nature, he can change the world as he wishes, but in the end, what an elemental can act on is only something within the scope of nature.
Basically a limitless reality marble

Arcueid could easily imitate unlimited blade works if she was against shiro or archer...
the only wep they have against her are things like Caladbolg II, Overdge, Nine live blade works, Excalibur/Caliburn (if they dont mind burning mana...), and various high ranking NP's not seen so far

Although i have to say, when re-reading the scene in HF against garzerker... it was stated shiro had to find a weapon in UBW and draw it out... so honestly, he gained the sword from archers arm.... but it was shiro himself who ported the skill using his own magic circuits to activate the ability

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » January 16th, 2009, 5:16 am

BlackTornado wrote:
Rikh wrote:
abscess wrote:I doubt Arc can create any weapon. So the answer would most likely be a simple no.
I have a question though, Are Excalibur and Arc of the same nature? I mean, the question sounds really stupid, I know, but they both have a relation to the Earth, the word was created by it and Arc is backed by it. Perhaps they have something in common that I've missed.... dunno if I'm making any sense...
Arc has become the bone of her sword
rofl...

On the topic of caliburn's power and all that, it is visited previously in this thread. I will summarize a few conclusions from my memory:

1. As its stated that Caliburn is used more for ceremonial purposes, its rank as a weapon is lower than Excalibur

2. Attacks above rank B can damage berserker. NPs above rank B can do so too. Although NPs lower than rank B are probably more powerful than attacks of rank A, they still get blocked. That's the system
Finally I see someone gets it. This is what Sabre is talking about, however, it makes little sense in terms of power level.

3. NP status refers to the activated attack like excaliblast. Its rank does not reflect the rank of the weapon itself. How strength translates into attacking power its not known, but its suggested that rank A strength probably causes rank A attacks, with small deviations due to the rank of weapons. After all, a really strong guy swing a stick can hurt a lot. But against God Hand, low ranking weapons will break. (The stick swung against a wall by a strong guy breaks) Berserker might still suffer damage

4. Since Excalibur with prana burst did not do much against berserker, Caliburn as an attack should not do much either. So it makes sense that the real name of Caliburn is invoked. But as Shirou was suffering from cranial pain, he may not have registered Saber saying it. Again this is mere speculation.

5. Plot device rank EX buff ftw
About the comparison between Excalibur and Arc. Excalibur is forged by the Lady of the Lake, a faerie. True Ancestor and faeries are not exactly the same thing, but they are both under the employment of the World. I am not too sure, but all the materials I read implies that True Ancestors are a few notches above faeries and have more autonomy. So I guess swords forged by faeries should not be more powerful than a True Ancestor. On the other hand, Avalon is also forged by faeries, and we all know it is essentially an impregnable barrier. So in the end, faeries may not be too inferior.

Reality Marble is a subtype of Marble Phantasm, but they do not cross each other, in fact they are polar opposites. Marble Phantasm realizes phenomenons that obey the rule of the World, but Marble Phantasms works by overlaying the user's world over the World, essentially violating the system. Therefore, Arc can never imitate UBW, since each Reality Marble is tied to only one individual. This is why the Reality Marbles of DAA's are essentially their signatures.

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Unread post by Rikh » January 16th, 2009, 11:55 pm

umm i think its stated that Arc created several swords with her MP against SHIKI/Roa before the ending of the route
Also she created the millenium castle with her MP. Also in Melty blood she recreated the crimson moon with her MP...

I think your mixing up reality marbles and marble phantasms. Reality marbles are limited to the mind of the magus alone, while Marble Phantasms can be manipulated. If arc can re-create a millenium castle/ spawn swords/create the crimson moon, then i think she would be capable of imitating Unlimited Blade Works

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Unread post by that one guy » January 17th, 2009, 12:30 am

I'm pretty sure she can't, simply because UBW is Archers world, nobdoy else's. She could probably do something similar, but it wouldn't be the same. I don't believe a Marble Phantasm can duplicate a Reality Marble, because MP uses nature, whereas RM changes what reality use. I'm not articulate enough to explain it in detail, but do you get what I'm saying?

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Unread post by Xanathos » January 17th, 2009, 1:14 am

If nature can do something, so can she. She can't do something along the lines of UBW since it goes against the world, which arc uses for her MP. But I think since Excalibur was forged by the world, she can recreate the original or perhaps something to surpass it. Arc + Sion acting as the weapon designer = win.

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Unread post by Rikh » January 17th, 2009, 4:50 am

Xanathos wrote:If nature can do something, so can she. She can't do something along the lines of UBW since it goes against the world, which arc uses for her MP. But I think since Excalibur was forged by the world, she can recreate the original or perhaps something to surpass it. Arc + Sion acting as the weapon designer = win.
Arc can alter the world around her to mimick UBW's effects
Such as spawning a lot of swords created by the wolrd on the ground

Sure she cant replicate the same thing, but she can definitely replicate the effect of UBW if she wanted to. Although i think her psuedo projected swords will fail in comparison to Shiro's swords. Even if her Marble Phantasm is great, Shiro and Archer are one of the best Sword Projectors on the planet

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Unread post by Xanathos » January 17th, 2009, 4:54 am

She wouldn't actually be using projection though. She would be using the original forging process by nature. UBW can not create anything unique. Arc can. But arc lacks sword making knowledge. If she had help her with sword production knowledge she could create some masterpieces.

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Unread post by BlackTornado » January 17th, 2009, 5:01 am

It is said somewhere by someone that Marble Phantasm is like drawing the only white bead out of a bag of black beads every single time. It is still allowed by nature, only that you alter certain natural aspects like probability. Reality marble is like making the entire bag of black beads + 1 white bead into white beads, so everytime you draw one out it is white. It is not natural and the world tries to crush it.

UBW brings everyone in the vicinity into Shirou's world of swords. If i am not wrong, those who are not in the range of the reality marble cannot enter it after it is cast. It is effectively isolating the area of effect (i think). Marble phantasm alters nature, but it does not isolate the user, unless the user specifically asks for it. (how i dunno. Is teleporting natural? Is creating an isolated world natural?)

Another difference i think, is that while UBW can spawn swords from prana along, marble phantasm must require the raw materials. It is more like the orthodox version of projection, which shirou's tracing deviates from.
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Unread post by Xanathos » January 17th, 2009, 5:05 am

However I believe MP can make the raw materials out of other materials. Ex: turning lead into gold. This is the limitation of speculation. Until we have something solid to go on we can't do guess at anything. Marble phantasm really hasn't been used like UBW so all we have to go on is the dictionary definition.

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » January 18th, 2009, 5:46 pm

Marble Phantasm must obey the laws of the World, it is as simple as that. As to turning lead into gold, it should be possible. Alchemy does exist in the Fate universe, and all magi still run by the rule of the World. However, Arc will never be able to duplicate UBW. Like people stated before, UBW belongs to Shirou and Shirou alone. Secondly, UBW directly violates the law of the World. For example, Caliburn has been registered as lost/destroyed by the World and cannot appear again after the event occurred. In this case, Arc can possibly produce something similar to Caliburn (but still, a different sword), but Shirou can produce something nearly identical to Caliburn.

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Unread post by Rikh » January 18th, 2009, 7:08 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Marble Phantasm must obey the laws of the World, it is as simple as that. As to turning lead into gold, it should be possible. Alchemy does exist in the Fate universe, and all magi still run by the rule of the World. However, Arc will never be able to duplicate UBW. Like people stated before, UBW belongs to Shirou and Shirou alone. Secondly, UBW directly violates the law of the World. For example, Caliburn has been registered as lost/destroyed by the World and cannot appear again after the event occurred. In this case, Arc can possibly produce something similar to Caliburn (but still, a different sword), but Shirou can produce something nearly identical to Caliburn.
ugh your missing my point...

Arc cannot recreate the exact same UBW. Although if she is exposed to it, she can use her Marble Phantasm to change the area around her naturally into a plain of swords. She can just make the world around her change into an environment similar to UBW, while UBW would just overwrite the environment around shiro

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Unread post by Xanathos » January 19th, 2009, 12:10 am

There are multiple methods to achieve the same result. For example there could be a magic to have the human body be ripped apart. But a meat grinder could create the same ending. You could have UBW recreate a sword or you could reforge a sword using the method it was originally created with. You see where I am going with this?

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » January 19th, 2009, 2:00 am

We are just talking over each other. I agree with you 100%. What I meant to say is that, Arc makes the sword by essentially making the sword auto-forge itself, while Shirou copies the sword and projects it. The difference is that, the sword Arc forges is just another sword that looks somewhat like the original and possess a few, if any, of the original abilities. I am more leaning towards NONE. Arc is educated in artifacts and magic, but she is NOWHERE close to Archer when it comes to perceiving the history and structure of a blade. Shirou's sword, on the other hand, is nearly identical to the original.

Now take a few steps back, WHY would Arc want to replicate UBW? UBW complements Archer skills and technique, giving him instant access to weapons. Arc has nothing to gain. It will be more efficient just for Arc to overwhelm her opponent with raw power.

Also, it is pretty safe to assume Reality Marbles pose very little threat to Arc. True Ancestors, as major spirits, are very likely to possess Reality Marbles, since Reality Marbles are intrinsic to demons and spirits. As for DAA's, we know everyone has one. Yet, Arc has encountered no trouble while laying individuals from both groups to waste in the past, until 4-eyes-with-a-peeling-knife popped up.

So... even if Reality Marbles could significantly affect Arc, they are not sufficient to overpower her. If I were a True Ancestor, I would be more concerned about Avalon.
Last edited by Keeper of Gil's Vault on January 19th, 2009, 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread post by Xanathos » January 19th, 2009, 2:09 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:We are just talking over each other. I agree with you 100%. What I meant to say is that, Arc makes the sword by essentially making the sword auto-forge itself, while Shirou copies the sword and projects it. The difference is that, the sword Arc forges is just another sword that looks somewhat like the original and possess a few, if any, of the original abilities. I am more leaning towards NONE. Arc is educated in artifacts and magic, but she is NOWHERE close to Archer when it comes to perceiving the history and structure of a blade. Shirou's sword, on the other hand, is nearly identical to the original.

Now take a few steps back, WHY would Arc want to replicate UBW? UBW complements Archer skills and technique, giving him instant access to weapons. Arc has nothing to gain. It will be more efficient just for Arc to overwhelm her opponent with raw power.
She can create an original sword something UBW can not do. Also if nature created excalibur I'm pretty sure if trained properly should be able to create something magnificent.

As to why she would do something like this, it can be solved by anaylizing arc's personality. She out of the blue became a magical girl after seeing a movie. She is weird like that. Going out and creating a sword just for the lolz is something she might do.

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » January 19th, 2009, 2:24 am

I think forging a phantasm on the caliber of Excalibur is way beyond Arc. Excalibur is the realization of the wishes of mankind for a miraculous weapon that suits a legendary king. I am not sure how the faeries interact with the World during such a task, but I imagine there will be some transfer of power and authority.

Plus, the whole point the World created Arc is to act as a demolition machine, not as a sword smith (Lady of the Lake got sword-forging covered).

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Unread post by wyldfire » January 19th, 2009, 5:11 am

even if arc creates excalibur it wont have the the abilities saber's excalibur...for example shirou/archer traces rock sword and downloads NLBW...arc creates the rock sword but there's nothing to download since its a completely different sword from what berserker used...it might not suffer from the global rank downgrade like shorou's though...

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Unread post by Xanathos » January 19th, 2009, 5:19 am

wyldfire wrote:even if arc creates excalibur it wont have the the abilities saber's excalibur...for example shirou/archer traces rock sword and downloads NLBW...arc creates the rock sword but there's nothing to download since its a completely different sword from what berserker used...it might not suffer from the global rank downgrade like shorou's though...
Come to think of it she would probably create something like what's in gil's vault. Splendid weapons without the fame or abilities.

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Unread post by wyldfire » January 19th, 2009, 7:12 am

ya! my point exactly! :)

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