True power of Archer (spoilers)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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gexer64
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Unread post by gexer64 » December 7th, 2008, 11:46 pm

hmmm interesting. An ultimate weapon being less effective? LOL @ archer.

IIRC though in UBW (route) didn't archer raise UBW without chanting the lines consecutively? If he did than w/e.
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Unread post by Watashimo » December 7th, 2008, 11:48 pm

Yea, you don't have the chant the lines consecutively, it just has to be completed. This is not Crucis Fatal/Fake ^^;;
Archer usually projects something after each line as he hypnotizes himself further (thats what chanting spells does) and gets closer to activating UBW.
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Unread post by Raitei » December 8th, 2008, 12:06 am

matthewfarenheit wrote:I more or less agree with the points that were made. I don't think it's an established 100% sure fact for the fandom if Archer managed or not to cast UBW against Berserker, but I wanted to adress a different point that I had repeatedly seen and think utterly erroneous:
Raitei wrote:3. not enough prana with only independent action to expand ubw. his master wasn't there, thus leaving him all alone with his resources
Independent action doesn't activate unless the Servant is rendered masterless. In no part of the game there's a stated limitation on the DISTANCE a Servant can have between him and his Master: Servants are always supplied with Prana as long as they have a Master and this FACT is given the spotlight when
► Show Spoiler
Running on Independent Action means that the Servant doesn't have a Master, not that it ditched him/her.
almost right, but not quite.
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I would suspect prana supply capabilities is less than usual when there is a great range between master and servant. and kiritsugu almost always taking saber with him whenever he goes in action, you know. he's not like kayneth who goes in hiding and just orders his servant here and there.

and by resources, you could also refer to master's resources; command spells, supporting magic, etc, etc...
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gexer64
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Unread post by gexer64 » December 8th, 2008, 12:19 am

Raitei wrote: and by resources, you could also refer to master's resources; command spells, supporting magic, etc, etc...
Bank account XD....
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Unread post by Watashimo » December 8th, 2008, 12:50 am

Credit Cards...
"Hah, I see, I see! Yeah, thats so much more important than who my master is! You're right, kid!" - Lancer
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Unread post by matthewfarenheit » December 8th, 2008, 3:49 am

Raitei wrote:almost right, but not quite.
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I would suspect prana supply capabilities is less than usual when there is a great range between master and servant. and kiritsugu almost always taking saber with him whenever he goes in action, you know. he's not like kayneth who goes in hiding and just orders his servant here and there.

and by resources, you could also refer to master's resources; command spells, supporting magic, etc, etc...
And? That pic cites that those Servants with Independent Action (Archer & Gilgamesh) tend to like to act on their own as one of their attributes. That Kiritsugu what? He's not even with Saber at all (as far as I know/the LN has been translated). You said that Archer may had not enough Prana to cast UBW because he was running on Independent Action, I corrected you as he couldn't possibly be running on Independent Action, but you counter with a technicality on how you worded "resource"? Please...

Fate/Zero spoiler ahead:
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Maybe we get back to topic now?

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 8th, 2008, 10:41 pm

The only specification of the Independent Action skill in the status screen is pertaining to how long a servant can remain in this world without a master. I guess the Archer class' tendency to wander off is due to less fear of losing their masters?

@Raitei,
The "independent action" in the screen shot may be literally referring to "working alone", rather than the Independent Action skill itself.

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Unread post by Serpentarius » December 9th, 2008, 9:08 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:The "independent action" in the screen shot may be literally referring to "working alone", rather than the Independent Action skill itself.
This.

And it seems most likely that Archer fought Berserker off for awhile, maybe took a couple of lives, which resulted in the mansion getting smashed up, and then was able to activate Unlimited Blade Works to take a few more. There's no reason to assume that he didn't use it.

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Unread post by Mkilbride » December 9th, 2008, 9:12 am

If your goal, is to hold the enemy off and give your allies enough time to get away; you're NOT going to pull out your best trick? Despite the fact you have a constant and high mana flow into you? Which would be great for UBW.


I dunno, I guess we never really can know, but I'd just like to assume Archer didn't half-ass it, despite his boast of "kicking his ass"

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Unread post by rastilin » December 9th, 2008, 12:57 pm

Some of his more powerful weapons, like Kaldbolg in BP mode would have filled the hall with fire, which would also have harmed Illya. Since it's unlikely that he was willing to hurt her, it's quite possible that he restricted his assault power on purpose.

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Unread post by Mkilbride » December 9th, 2008, 1:01 pm

He gets to choose whom he brings into UBW...so I don't think that's the issue.

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Unread post by Inverted » December 9th, 2008, 2:17 pm

Mkilbride wrote:He gets to choose whom he brings into UBW...so I don't think that's the issue.
It depends. Anyone within a certain radius will be swallowed in. If he wants to exclude that person he will have to go farther away.

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Unread post by Mkilbride » December 9th, 2008, 2:18 pm

Illya was quite the distance away, that was a HUGE hall. She was away up the stairs.

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Unread post by Inverted » December 9th, 2008, 2:31 pm

Mkilbride wrote:Illya was quite the distance away, that was a HUGE hall. She was away up the stairs.
Without knowing the diameter of UBW we'll never know. However, I believe it's still more efficient to trace and fire , rather than use your mana on UBW .Archer will be able to fire several Broken Phantasms with that same mana. In the end we don't know whether he used it or not. I personally believe he just used 6 B+(after tracing) and above swords .

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Unread post by Raitei » December 9th, 2008, 2:47 pm

Mkilbride wrote:Illya was quite the distance away, that was a HUGE hall. She was away up the stairs.
so? more than the whole church was swallowed inside ubw when archer activated it to taunt saber. and even if by a hundred million-th chance ilya didn't get sucked, berserker did. she would still recognize what's going on.

also, what inverted said.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

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Unread post by BlackTornado » December 9th, 2008, 3:07 pm

plus ubw does not really give archer a very good leverage over berserker. Its said that ubw is only an annoyance to normal servants. Its the natural counter to gilgamesh only. Furthermore, berserker is most suited for straightforward melee combat. In ubw, its mostly flat land (i assume from cgs), and that would be beneficial for berserker and a disadvantage for archer. In the hall, there are pillars to dodge behind, floors to climb, etc. A more uneven terrain is better for archer. So activating ubw has little point
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Unread post by gexer64 » December 9th, 2008, 3:16 pm

If illya commented "oh mah gawd he used a reality marble" that would have taken away some of it's grandeur when he summoned it in UBW. It might just have been the way it was written.

Also I don't think prana usage is a concern. Archer was going to take as many lives as he could, knowing he wasn't going to survive.
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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 9th, 2008, 5:12 pm

It doesn't really matter. Gilgamesh killed Berserker with Gate of Babylon only with the aid of Erikidu, the NP blast itself cannot kill Berserker sufficiently fast. He can get into melee range while taking the hits. UBW offers the same thing as GoB, only weaker. He would die whether he uses the reality marble or not. It seems Archer came from a time line in which he has never seen Erikidu. Otherwise he would have traced a bunch of them and hog-tied Berserker real good.

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Unread post by Raitei » December 9th, 2008, 5:46 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:It doesn't really matter. Gilgamesh killed Berserker with Gate of Babylon only with the aid of Erikidu, the NP blast itself cannot kill Berserker sufficiently fast. He can get into melee range while taking the hits. UBW offers the same thing as GoB, only weaker. He would die whether he uses the reality marble or not. It seems Archer came from a time line in which he has never seen Erikidu. Otherwise he would have traced a bunch of them and hog-tied Berserker real good.
seems like enkidu was made by non earth materials either... it's the chain that binds the bull of heaven; it should have been made with heavenly materials.
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread post by Rikh » December 9th, 2008, 7:04 pm

Raitei wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:It doesn't really matter. Gilgamesh killed Berserker with Gate of Babylon only with the aid of Erikidu, the NP blast itself cannot kill Berserker sufficiently fast. He can get into melee range while taking the hits. UBW offers the same thing as GoB, only weaker. He would die whether he uses the reality marble or not. It seems Archer came from a time line in which he has never seen Erikidu. Otherwise he would have traced a bunch of them and hog-tied Berserker real good.
seems like enkidu was made by non earth materials either... it's the chain that binds the bull of heaven; it should have been made with heavenly materials.
besides that point...
From all we know, Archer has the ability to trace
A) Basic things such as vases i would guess... Shiro can at least
B) Massive amounts of swords
C) Defensive armaments

Enkidu is not really considered a defensive armament or a sword... it can be seen as one if looked at from an alternate perspective, but honestly its just a high ranked chain. I dont believe he would be able to trace Enkidu, he probably wont see for a reason for it at least

Gilgamesh's one got broken by a half-dead Berserker, which the chain btw gets stronger with the opponents divinity... Archers Enkidu would be significantly weaker (by a rank) and hercules would probably easily break free of it.

(also archers UBW would be kinda a waste as he would use a lot of mana to create a world of infinite swords, but with only a few B ranked or higher weapons at disposal...)

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