True power of Archer (spoilers)

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Keeper of Gil's Vault
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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 2nd, 2008, 6:06 pm

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Benawi
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Unread post by Benawi » December 2nd, 2008, 11:54 pm

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BlackTornado
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Unread post by BlackTornado » December 3rd, 2008, 12:20 am

wow benawi, you are the first person to fully understand and answer my question... thanks a lot, i have already given up finding such a good answer. But btw, archer surviving so long is only due to his independent action ability. so... well, in a sense it is not so impressive
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Benawi
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Unread post by Benawi » December 3rd, 2008, 12:23 am

is it impressive not really, but it still proves that he isnt as weak as people tend to consider him. He may not be close to Lancers capability of withstanding damage but he's definately no pushover

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Unread post by BlackTornado » December 3rd, 2008, 12:30 am

true true. That's why so many ppl are gar over him
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supremehyren
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Unread post by supremehyren » December 3rd, 2008, 12:42 am

Now that I think about it... even though everyone's saying that Archer-traced Excalibur is weak, shouldn't it still be one of the strongest weapons in the Holy Grail War?

First of all, Excalibur's an A++ rank, and the strongest holy sword. In other words, it's the maximum-strength NP that Archer can use, unless he happens to have an EX-rank or a demonic sword that surpasses Excalibur, which is unlikely.

Archer's Excalibur would be A+ rank, right? Bellerophon's also A+, so I can see why you might think that Rider would survive a weakened Excalibur attack. However... Excalibur's a wave of light. Pegasus is alive. Generally speaking, it's not a good idea to attack with your body if you're facing an Excaliblast. As far as I can tell, there's no way Pegasus would survive, not to mention Rider. Archer, on the other hand, would only suffer a gigantic loss of mana, but no bodily injuries from the clash, and mana can be replenished. In other words, he'd come out on top.

In other words, A+ rank isn't anything to laugh at.


Second of all, mana (magical energy, whatever). It seems to be the general consensus that Archer can't do shit with the amount of mana he has. However... he is a magus, after all. He's got at least a decent supply of mana naturally (it's 'C', right?) but fundamentally, a Servant is supplied mana by the Holy Grail and the Master.

At what point does he ever complain 'I don't have enough mana for this, I can't use it'? The only servant that's done that has been Saber, really, simply showing the role a master takes in providing mana. Even Rider had to use Bloodfort Andromeda to get enough to use Bellerophon, and Gil drained energy from the fire survivors for years.

As for the time he threated to use Excalibur in UBW, wasn't he running off of Independent Action AND wounded from the string of fights he had before that?(Not to mention that he would have been able to use Excalibur, in that condition, in a way that was at least strong enough to make Saber worry, although he'd disappear afterwards).

For instance, if (dark) Sakura had been his master, he'd have had a virtually infinite supply of mana.

The way that these theoretical fights have been set up, Archer's opponent is always given as much mana as needed, and he's always in the situation of 'using Excalibur will kill me'.

In a truely equal fight, with both sides given unlimited mana, Archer would win in most cases. In fact, he'd probably only lose to Ea (almost for certain) and Excalibur(less certain).

Also, think about this: he can trace multiple copies of noble phantasms. He did it with K&B, so why not with others? Tell me, what exactly can pass through three Rho Aius? How about an infinite number of swords, for real(that is, he can make copies of swords, so his final number can actually be higher than Gil's)?

Do you see the possibilities?
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Rikh
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Unread post by Rikh » December 3rd, 2008, 4:25 am

supremehyren wrote: Also, think about this: he can trace multiple copies of noble phantasms. He did it with K&B, so why not with others? Tell me, what exactly can pass through three Rho Aius? How about an infinite number of swords, for real(that is, he can make copies of swords, so his final number can actually be higher than Gil's)?

Do you see the possibilities?
well you see..

Shiro 'can' trace infinite swords if he really wanted to...
in fact, if given all the mana he can...

however, shown in all routes, especially in UBW... its impossible for him

He will kill him self through burning out his magic circuits and causing extreme physical damage on his body
creating a sword is not easy for archer, its just through time he has more ability, and experiences less pain than shiro...

Archer still has a penalty for projecting... Archers mana-pool is always decently high throughout the whole game, the whole problem as to why he cant just spawn infinite swords, is that his magic circuits will be destroyed

Well anyways, sure he can make multiple projections... but as shown from UBW and HF.... Projecting Rho Aias has a huge impact on him... HF shiro can barely take it, UBW shiro has difficulty projecting the full amount of it.... and UBW archer almost physically died from using it to protect him...

If he projected even two Rho Aias's... he would have surely died against lancer

Benawi
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Unread post by Benawi » December 3rd, 2008, 4:45 am

Ya using projection has more of a toll on his body then just depletion of mana. If he was to try project several high class noble phantasms at the same time he would certainly destroy himself rather than his enemy. With low ranked swords this would be okay but dont expect him to withstand spamming Rank A noble phatasms and such. One alone can take a serious toll on his body. Cant consider any more. Archer isnt suited nor is he able to win a fight on all out strength. Their are countless things he can create using his immagination but making countless weapons is out of the question. The reason he has Unlimited Blade Works is because he cant do such a thing. Because not even he can make a limitless supply of weapons he creates a world that holds a limited supply of weapons. Such a reality marble wouldnt be neccessary if he could make them on site. His strength would lie in executing an unpredictable attack that catches the enemy offguard or exposes their weakness not throu brute force.

I constantly tell myself imma make the next post short but i always seem to go on and on when it comes to these things. I thank anyone who has the patients to read throu all my Walls of Text

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Unread post by NonExistence » December 3rd, 2008, 4:52 am

it's true. the process of projection involves forming the blueprint in your head, analyzing its history, existence, and everything associated with it, and pumping enough energy to actually pretty much coagulate into that weapon. to try to spam rank A weapons simultaneously is ridiculous. first, he'd need to be able to compile information on multiple weapons, each with several hundreds to thousands of history behind it, at the same time. after which he needs to run his body into the ground trying to gather a giant pile of energy. there's only so much a magic circuit can handle. so winning by using projection to brute force your way through doesn't work, because your head would, well, asplode before you got anywhere close to what you're trying for. it's just like shiki with his eyes.
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Unread post by Rikh » December 3rd, 2008, 4:59 am

well i think Archer can trace 2 Excaliburs at the same time...

its just guaranteed that he will die almost immediately after so...

Also each one firing would be half its potential since he can only put in half the total mana he has in each on firing it...

So 2 projected Excaliblasts should be the same as one projected excaliblast...

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Unread post by Prince6233 » December 3rd, 2008, 9:48 am

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BlackTornado
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Unread post by BlackTornado » December 3rd, 2008, 10:57 am

... think of something better to say... or dun say it at all
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Unread post by wyldfire » December 3rd, 2008, 12:32 pm

archer CAN actually spam nps probably with UBW...inside the RM swords are produced at a glance...the only cost is to maintain the RM...

and archer using excalibar as a bp would have a rank of A++...he already has caladbolg II as a rank A bp...so more possibilities... :D

and anyway, these statistics doesn't matter anyway...archer owns everyone in pure GAR...thats his strongest np IMO...an EX++ in GAR rank... :lol:

and to whoever thought of that combo of kiritsugu and archer...dude, u ROCK!!!

Prince6233
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Unread post by Prince6233 » December 3rd, 2008, 1:48 pm

@WYLDFIRE

Prantik tui eto chap nis naa pagla hoye jaabi re :lol:

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » December 3rd, 2008, 1:58 pm

@Prince6233 : speak english, gujaratii freak. this is english based forum. and you need to learn how to read and speak english.
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Mkilbride
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Unread post by Mkilbride » December 3rd, 2008, 2:01 pm

Archer wins in all situations due to one thing.

His Reality Marble *violates* reality. I love saying that. I dunno why, but it makes it seem so much cooler than other animes "Make your own world" thing.

Cmon, how many other characters in the world of animes, VNs, ectera, can say they've VIOLATED REALITY and mean it. :P

Prince6233
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Unread post by Prince6233 » December 3rd, 2008, 4:43 pm

@ RAITEI
:o
First learn what is the diff between gujrati marathi bengali then comment :x
Second kindly mind your own business that post was for wyldfire who unlike u knows the language
Third i hate the character of archer gil gamesh rocks there is nothng u can do to change it
fourth should i pretend to be scared of your harsh words :lol:

Prince6233
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Unread post by Prince6233 » December 3rd, 2008, 4:51 pm

@Topic

Archer is like a photocopy machine so basically the power of archer is as good as his enemies strength i see nothing to go gaga over archer but again i m not an archer mark[fan] so it doesnt matter to me whatsoever :roll:

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » December 3rd, 2008, 5:01 pm

Prince6233 wrote:@ RAITEI
:o
First learn what is the diff between gujrati marathi bengali then comment :x
Second kindly mind your own business that post was for wyldfire who unlike u knows the language
Third i hate the character of archer gil gamesh rocks there is nothng u can do to change it
fourth should i pretend to be scared of your harsh words :lol:
who told you to be scared? I told you to follow the rules. and why should I give a damn about the difference? if you want to speak gutterspeak, orcish, or something like that, go somewhere else. I don't even care about you speaking alien languages, but in here everyone else speaks english. end of story.

edit : oh, before I forget, learn some more english if you please.

that said, back to topic.
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Benawi
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Unread post by Benawi » December 3rd, 2008, 5:09 pm

Prince6233 wrote:@Topic

Archer is like a photocopy machine so basically the power of archer is as good as his enemies strength i see nothing to go gaga over archer but again i m not an archer mark[fan] so it doesnt matter to me whatsoever :roll:
Archer doesnt neccesarilly copy the enemies strength. He copies their weapon. Which is a far different ability. Although he copies the weapon he can use it anyway he wants. Caladbolg II is an example of this. It was never intended to be an arrow however Archer altered it to fit his needs. So although he definately is faker, he is far from a simple copy machine.

As for the comment made by Raitei, I agree that in a forum where English is the common language you should speak it while commenting on a post. If your post is directed solely to one person you could simply send them a private message.

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