True power of Archer (spoilers)

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Kansho
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Unread post by Kansho » November 22nd, 2008, 2:03 pm

Raitei, parameter numbers are canon. I do not recall when they appeared, but was in some material or magazine.
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misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » November 22nd, 2008, 3:03 pm

oh, my mistake. they do not appear on the game, so... yeah. but you can't deny the fact that rho aias has no apparent rank. especially if archer's the one using it.
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Kansho
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Unread post by Kansho » November 22nd, 2008, 3:13 pm

Raitei wrote:oh, my mistake. they do not appear on the game, so... yeah. but you can't deny the fact that rho aias has no apparent rank. especially if archer's the one using it.
Yeah, that's totally true. Go far than that is pure speculation.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

Rikh
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Unread post by Rikh » November 22nd, 2008, 3:45 pm

well i say that 7 layer Rho Aias has the ability to...

Deflect full powered Arc + Gil + MEoDP + Excaliblast + bellrephon + nine lives + ub3r h0li3 gr4il b34m! + Mikuru beam
at once...

but against a Gae bolg, it leaves the user weakened, due to lancers GAR counter

that's my accurate judgement of its power

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Unread post by spathi » November 22nd, 2008, 4:03 pm

Rikh wrote:well i say that 7 layer Rho Aias has the ability to...

Deflect full powered Arc + Gil + MEoDP + Excaliblast + bellrephon + nine lives + ub3r h0li3 gr4il b34m! + Mikuru beam
at once...

but against a Gae bolg, it leaves the user weakened, due to lancers GAR counter

that's my accurate judgement of its power
Mikuru Beam? WTF?!?

Keeper of Gil's Vault
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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » November 22nd, 2008, 6:52 pm

I know many people are pro-Archer, but you got to realize that Rho Aias is a mediocre NP at best. First of all, the Rho Aius Archer got is not the REAL Rho Aias. It is a conceptual weapon that embodies the concept of the original. Therefore, as a NP, it cannot match the mystery of Rider's phantasmal beast. In Nasuverse, a greater mystery always beats the lesser one.In addition, don't forget Rho Aias gets the projection degrading penalty. IF it is the original Rho Aias, then maybe.

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Unread post by spathi » November 22nd, 2008, 7:08 pm

I'm pretty much the Aius he has is just a projected one

Geburah san
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Unread post by Geburah san » November 22nd, 2008, 9:26 pm

Perhaps Aius finally broke due to Archer using it as broken phantasm?

On the last petal he uses most of his remaining prana to stop Gae Bolg "in extremis", that could mean reinforcement and/or using it as broken phantasm to boost its defence

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Unread post by AlinSabel » November 22nd, 2008, 9:29 pm

Geburah san wrote:Perhaps Aius finally broke due to Archer using it as broken phantasm?

On the last petal he uses most of his remaining prana to stop Gae Bolg "in extremis", that could mean reinforcement and/or using it as broken phantasm to boost its defence
It doesn't break. He makes projections - kinda like his own existence. The original has had a blueprint made of it, which is stored inside of him (a la throne of heroes), and he simply makes a copy of it based on this blueprint.

Geburah san
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Unread post by Geburah san » November 22nd, 2008, 11:06 pm

Emmm since Archers doesnt have any noble phantasm (aside perhaps avalon inside him) it was obvious that i was refering to a projection.
After the clash between archer and lancer, archer comments that his Aius was shattered, so one way or another his projection was destroyed

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Unread post by stryk3r » November 22nd, 2008, 11:31 pm

Well the numbers and even ranks that are attached to different weapons and abilities are clearly not set in stone to begin with. An A level attack may only perform at B level if the servant is injured, exhausted, or has a weak master. Saber is a good example of this, in Fate and UBW Berserker is more than she can handle, she is able to take his last 5 lives, but would have been defeated had Archer, not taken his first seven. In Heaven's Feel though, she's landed several devastating wounds before Shirou arrives on the scene.

To put it more concisely, the ranks don't really matter. A lower ranked ability or servant can win under favorable conditions, or if their weapon is just ideal for the task at hand. Otherwise the Grail War itself would be entirely pointless, a simple number crunch could determine the winner.

Geburah san
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Unread post by Geburah san » November 23rd, 2008, 12:23 am

Well, atack ranks DOES matter since in the case of Berserker no matter the how good the servant is, if he uses an atack lower than B it will be ignored.
In the case of Saber versus Berserker aside the Alter Saber thing she was always low of prana so using Excaliblast was out of the question, plus her stats with Shirou as master are lower, making her inferior in melee combat against Berserker
But i do agree that rank is not decisive unless is some weapons clash (Bellerophon against Excalibur is a pure contest of power the one whos stronger wins) since with a favorable situation an inferior weapon can win overcoming the odds

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Unread post by stryk3r » November 23rd, 2008, 4:18 am

What I was trying to say is that the attack won't always have an identical output. An attack that might normally be B ranked could end up being fired off as C rank if they were exhausted/wounded or conversely, if they had a massive surge in power from something it might be an A. Even the strongest and most skilled MMA fighters don't win every match, and not every punch or kick has the same amount of force behind it, and the Holy Grail war has more variables than sanctioned fights ie number of recent battles, strength of masters, and type of weapon/NP.

I guess it would be more accurate to say that the letter on the status screen doesn't matter, since an actual attack wouldn't have a fixed amount of damage, only an estimate.

Edit: Don't think I've given my actual thoughts on Archer's merits. His greatest aspect is versatility. He can use projectiles, he can melee, he can use NPs as arrows, and summon the greatest shield ever forged, if only a copy. He can also survive and fight without a master for much longer than should be possible. The only real weakness I see is dealing with a strong, aggressive fighter; even with the shield he's prone to be overwhelmed.

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Unread post by BlackTornado » November 26th, 2008, 5:09 am

Shiirn wrote:
Gilgamesh:
► Show Spoiler
Endiku would not work against Archer. It is stronger the more Godly the target. Although we would all like to think Archer as the God of Gar, he is not a god in any conventional sense. Hence endiku would only be a strong (normal) chain against him, which he can break easily. That does not prevent Ea from owning him though...

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » November 26th, 2008, 5:22 am

BlackTornado wrote:Endiku would not work against Archer. It is stronger the more Godly the target. Although we would all like to think Archer as the God of Gar, he is not a god in any conventional sense. Hence endiku would only be a strong (normal) chain against him, which he can break easily. That does not prevent Ea from owning him though...
not "easily". shirou didn't even manage to budge against enkidu (heck, and it's just 1 chain on the arm), let alone if there's many of them binding him from every corner.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread post by BlackTornado » November 26th, 2008, 5:29 am

er.. shirou is a noob. Archer is a heroic spirit whose is really much stronger than shirou... Shirou gets owned by Lancer who was not trying. Archer gets owned by lancer (who was trying but was restricted) only if he uses gae bolg

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » November 26th, 2008, 5:34 am

"much stronger" doesn't necessarily mean pure physical strength...
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

BlackTornado
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Unread post by BlackTornado » November 26th, 2008, 6:21 am

true. But don't Servants owned normal humans in terms of physical strength? Say if archer does not use any spells or weapons, he can still easily own any human fighters, no?

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Unread post by Euphemism » November 26th, 2008, 7:22 am

Regarding GoB and Ea power level discrepancy mentioned earlier... Wouldn't the GoB power rating reflect Gil's use of it - not to draw the weapons out, but to launch them at his enemies? Ea's Ex power (named as Enuma Elish) comes from its activated use, which wouldn't be part of the GoB use.

Regarding Bellerophon vs. Aius: Unless Aius has the effect of 'reducing damage', I don't see how the protection adds up with Bellerophon's. It doesn't reduce the effect of Excaliblast, it absorbs and diverts it - well, you could make the argument that Bellerophon's shield extends past Rho Aius and combines with it defensively, but eh. That seems like a bit of a stretch. Then again, I don't believe that 4-petal Aius could have any chance of holding off Excaliblast, so...

Someone mentioned that Rho Aius would be less effective against Bellerophon than Gae Bolg, assuming equal amounts of power, because the former is not a projectile. Eh, that doesn't make sense to me either. Rider's basically a fast moving, large projectile. I can buy the 'mystery' argument, if someone points out where that came from.

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Unread post by AlinSabel » November 26th, 2008, 7:34 am

Geburah san wrote:Emmm since Archers doesnt have any noble phantasm (aside perhaps avalon inside him) it was obvious that i was refering to a projection.
After the clash between archer and lancer, archer comments that his Aius was shattered, so one way or another his projection was destroyed
Ah, I see what you mean now. And BP are used as offensive things... it's not a "power boost", it's "an offensive power boost". <_<

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