FSN commentary (SPOILERIFFIC!)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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Favourite Route, all said and done?

Fate
12
18%
Unlimited Blade Works
29
43%
Heavens Feel
18
27%
The secret Taiga/Illya Buruma route (LOL)
4
6%
Actually, I'm just GAR for Beserker!
4
6%
 
Total votes : 67

Unread postby Shikiller » November 23rd, 2008, 1:50 am

Now that people are mentioning it, it is hard to believe that he suddenly dropped his 10 years self. He never realizes that the ideals are fake, he says " i will betray miself , charge with the sin, pay the price " etc, really suddenly with not much explanation after Ilya tells him "it's natural to protect the ones you love"
And the route is really "convenient" , what will Shirou do if Sakura threatens somebody close to him like Taiga or Illya?
He never knew that Sakura was killing people, and when he does, Sakura stops killing, so he never " holds the burden of letting Sakura kill people " , he doesn't do the real sacrifice of letting people die for Sakura.
I getting the feeling that the route lacks some deepness that the other routes had.
Last edited by Shikiller on November 23rd, 2008, 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Kansho » November 23rd, 2008, 1:59 am

Well, probably Kinoko Nasu didn't wanted to wrote something really to that extent. His objective was to change Shirou, nothing more, nothing less.

And I didn't see how is really that hard to believe his change. It's a matter of "what is more important", simply that. For him, Sakura is more important, so that's all.

I wouldn't go to the extent to say that lacks some deepness, as the route is deep, extreme and sentimental enough. But it's a "convenient" story to show his change, that's true. But, well, it's kinda logical that ended that way, as that the story going to the extreme you present probably would never work to the public, as you need a hero and a heroine, after all.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
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Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.
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Unread postby abscess » November 23rd, 2008, 2:10 am

Watashimo wrote:Feelings are something completely different than a person's nature. Shirou's beliefs, way of life, and foundation are all based on the ideal of being a superhero. He was reborn into such a person when he was saved by Kiritsugu. Even though he loved Sakura, I don't see how he could so easily change himself. Such a change occurs over an extended period of time or in a traumatizing event that would shatter your foundations (something that would take a long while to recover from).

I understood it that Shirou always had something for Sakura from... a year and a half more or less (I think...). It isn't so mind-warping that Shirou wants to protect her the most. I actually was asking myself the whole Fate and UBW routes what the hell was Shirou thinking, he had someone at his side all the time and suddenly an unknown girl comes along (Fate, Saber) or someone he idolized but didn't really know much of (UBW, Tohsaka) appear and he forgets all about Sakura.... what's with him, really? Anyway, that's just me in a bit of a rant, ignore it :P

In HF he did stay with Sakura, but it was different from what I expected. Sakura was no longer the girl there, she had some depth and presented some moral ambiguity that made me take interest in the story. In this route he tried to change his foundation of being a superhero, but it wasn't as drastic or easy, we get to see Shirou constantly ask himself if that is the right thing to do, if it isn't better to kill Sakura and stop everything. He did experience a "traumatizing event" (sort of) when Zouken tells him that Sakura is the one to blame, it did come out as a shock, even if he did somewhat saw it coming (I think he did, but can't remember...).

I don't agree with the "atone later, let shit hit the fan now"-approach of things from Shirou and some more development couldn't have hurt the story, but as a whole it's good enough for a tragic tale.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby Watashimo » November 23rd, 2008, 2:16 am

I just didn't like the route in general. It was very depressing and infuriating at times, not to mention I dislike Sakura. I think the True end really ruins the mood of the whole route. Shirou fights to the end and dies for the girl he loves (depressing), and then suddenly its a happily-ever-after ending where Sakura, Rin, Shirou, and even Rider are all alive. I believe that even though it makes sense, it just sort of ruins what has been building up through the entire route. The Normal end seemed more appropriate, but made it even more depressing. It was a sucky end, but much more appropriate than the True end imho. As I said before, what I hated the most was Shirou losing his memories, mainly because I consider memories precious. Even though the route had awesome fights, I just don't like it.

The UBW and Fate routes were better mainly because the ends were appropriate, and weren't really depressing. But, thats just my personal taste.
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Unread postby Shikiller » November 23rd, 2008, 2:33 am

Kansho wrote:Well, probably Kinoko Nasu didn't wanted to wrote something really to that extent. His objective was to change Shirou, nothing more, nothing less.

And I didn't see how is really that hard to believe his change. It's a matter of "what is more important", simply that. For him, Sakura is more important, so that's all.

I wouldn't go to the extent to say that lacks some deepness, as the route is deep, extreme and sentimental enough. But it's a "convenient" story to show his change, that's true. But, well, it's kinda logical that ended that way, as that the story going to the extreme you present probably would never work to the public, as you need a hero and a heroine, after all.


I don't think is just a matter of choose what is more important, as wastashimo said, Shirou's beliefs, way of life, and foundation are all based on the ideal of being a superhero. He was reborn into such a person when he was saved by Kiritsugu. So i think the execution of how he changes is really lacking, and the sudden change can even be called unrealistic.
By convenient i was trying to express that the story is forgiving with Shirou's new determination, he doesn't really test it or charge with a real burden of letting people die for Sakura, or maybe i am asking for very extremes ways.
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Unread postby abscess » November 23rd, 2008, 2:36 am

Haahaha! It is true that it is sort of depressing, but it's intended to be that way. You can't say you hate the story itself just because of its nature. Dunno why, but I do like sort of depressing stuff for some reason (NOT emo-stuff, that just plainly sucks BAD), so I did dig into the story. But it is true that it ended way to convinient. As I said somewhere in othe thread, it would have been more appropriate if we had a scenario much like the normal end, but with the diference of Sakura moving on while atoning (not just the flower garbage that made me angry). Anyway, just my opinion.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby Gunbladeuser » November 23rd, 2008, 2:41 am

Watashimo wrote:As I said before, what I hated the most was Shirou losing his memories, mainly because I consider memories precious. Even though the route had awesome fights, I just don't like it.

Shirou loses his memories? When was that?
Or do you mean that he couldn't remember certain things during the route when his body was being "destroyed" by Archer's arm?
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Unread postby Watashimo » November 23rd, 2008, 2:44 am

abscess wrote:Haahaha! It is true that it is sort of depressing, but it's intended to be that way. You can't say you hate the story itself just because of its nature.


So I can't hate a person because of how they act? And I can't hate food because of how it tastes? Lol :P I understand that it was intended to be depressing, but that doesn't mean I can't dislike it. I did enjoy the fights and I liked learning more about the entire Holy Grail War, but I dislike the route because:
1. Shirou lost his memories - boo
2. Sakura XD, sorry Sakura fans.
3. I 3 annoying. blocks.
4. See? Losing memories sucks. Oh yea. Cause its depressing.

Gunbladeuser wrote:
Watashimo wrote:As I said before, what I hated the most was Shirou losing his memories, mainly because I consider memories precious. Even though the route had awesome fights, I just don't like it.

Shirou loses his memories? When was that?
Or do you mean that he couldn't remember certain things during the route when his body was being "destroyed" by Archer's arm?


Yes that, and how near the end he could barely remember anything at all.
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Unread postby stryk3r » November 23rd, 2008, 4:37 am

I look at Shirou's ideals as his religion. They were what he had previously focused his entire life upon, and they were probably ingrained deeper than most people's religion because the source of them, Kiritsugu, actually sheltered, taught, and fed him for five years. That's what makes the fact that he sacrificed them to be with Sakura, and save her from the darkness no matter what all the more profound. In the other two arcs he mostly used them to hide from reality and he was continually making things difficult and dangerous for the people around him by being stubborn and unrealistic (Saber's not allowed to fight, etc). Once he decides to give them up, not only has he utterly and irrevocably thrown his lot in with Sakura (she really is all that he has from that moment forward), he has become the master of his own destiny. The passive and immature Shirou we've been forced to put up with up until now is replaced by a resolute hero who's aware of his own flaws but presses on regardless to protect what he treasures most. HF is about sacrificing everything, and in the end getting even more back.

To use American comics as an analogy, he changes from the black and white, idealistic DC type that's defined by absolutes to the more compelling and human Marvel type whose souls are shades of gray, riddled with both merits and flaws.
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Unread postby abscess » November 23rd, 2008, 5:54 am

Watashimo wrote:So I can't hate a person because of how they act? And I can't hate food because of how it tastes? Lol :P I understand that it was intended to be depressing, but that doesn't mean I can't dislike it. I did enjoy the fights and I liked learning more about the entire Holy Grail War,[...]

Those analogies don't actually work, at least not for me. As I see it, using you analogies, you shouldn't say you hate an apple just because it's a fruit, or it's red or because it's round-ish; you should at least check one out before saying something about food you haven't even tasted. The same would be with a person, but that's got nothing to do with the topic, so I'll stop talking about the flaws I see in the analogies. Besides, it's only my opinion and you can disagree as much as you like

Watashimo wrote:[...] but I dislike the route because:
1. Shirou lost his memories - boo

See? You don't like the story because of more specific reasons, not just because it's a tragic one :)
Anyway, jokes aside, I can't see the problem with losing memories. Sure, losing one's memories are like losing one's self, losing part of them is losing a part of yourself, and that (for most people) sucks bad. But that's part of the story and it goes well with it. Shirou is changing himself and losing a part of himself when denying his dream, the price he has to pay in order to be useful and help Sakura is losing his memories, forgetting his past, about his dream, about Kiritsugu, about Saber (too bad about that....), etc.

Watashimo wrote:2. Sakura XD, sorry Sakura fans.

So, you don't like Sakura? Well, no surprise. I don't really like Tohsaka either, but I liked UBW. Sure, if I liked the character I could have probably liked the route more. Personal tastes.

Watashimo wrote:3. I 3 annoying. blocks.

I, uh..... don't get what you are saying here...

Watashimo wrote:4. See? Losing memories sucks. Oh yea. Cause its depressing.

You are repeating yourself here...

Anyway. I'm only interested in knowing why you didn't like the story, since you seem capable of not going postal. It's not that I want to make you like it, just curious.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby Watashimo » November 23rd, 2008, 7:18 am

# 3 was a joke about losing memories, hence there being many words missing in there, like what happens in the game. The first part of 4 was explaining that and the 2nd part of 4 was the real # 3 :P It was a failed joke apparently. And yes they were flawed analogies, but I didn't really think it was important. Seeing as how I've read the entire route, its not like I'm judging a book by its cover. I disliked the story in general because it was a depressing story. The fact that Shirou dropped his ideal for Sakura a bit too easily bugged me as well(as has been discussed in previous posts). Overall I think it was just the atmosphere and mood of the story that I really didn't like. That and said reasons just made me dislike the route. They did a good job, it just wasn't the type of storyline I like.
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Unread postby stryk3r » November 23rd, 2008, 9:17 am

I wasn't a fan of the blocks either, but the spaces I thought were really clever. I never installed a voice patch, but I was able to follow the fact that Shirou wasn't comprehending what was being said, but at the same time get an idea of the inflection, sentence structure, etc. This really is purely about taste though; no route or aspect is verifiably good or bad.
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Unread postby Rikh » November 24th, 2008, 2:50 am

However in HF, Shiro, because of his memory loss, and valiant attempts, he has reached the pure epitome of GAR

You do know the famous GAR names of
GARcher
GARncer
GARserker
GARtomine

however shiro is above them...
fighting to the point where
His body was freaking being destroyed/repaired by swords, losing all his memories, unable to even SLEEP because he will mentally die without supreme concentration, Taking punches from the Chinese master martial artist of pwnsauce Kotomine, killing HERCULES, jumping out of 7 story buildings and surviving, Pwning KING ARTHUR AND EXCALIBUR, had sex at least 3 times over the course of three days, allowed a city to start dying, withdrew from a cursed ideal in 5 minutes when it took him in UBW several DAYS to have a strong opinion about it, let his arm get chopped off, got a toxin arm slashed on which kills him and causes him intolerable pain, got saber sucked away from him early on, and DESTROYED (Depending on route) A GRAND HOLY GRAIL

in the course of like 17 days? pretty GAR for shiro now...


anywho, those are my reasons for being more GAR for shiro than any others...
Although GARcher is pretty close still
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Unread postby abscess » November 24th, 2008, 3:51 am

Rikh wrote:however shiro is above them...
fighting to the point where
His body was freaking being destroyed/repaired by swords, losing all his memories, unable to even SLEEP because he will mentally die without supreme concentration, Taking punches from the Chinese master martial artist of pwnsauce Kotomine, killing HERCULES, jumping out of 7 story buildings and surviving, Pwning KING ARTHUR AND EXCALIBUR, had sex at least 3 times over the course of three days, allowed a city to start dying, withdrew from a cursed ideal in 5 minutes when it took him in UBW several DAYS to have a strong opinion about it, let his arm get chopped off, got a toxin arm slashed on which kills him and causes him intolerable pain, got saber sucked away from him early on, and DESTROYED (Depending on route) A GRAND HOLY GRAIL

in the course of like 17 days? pretty GAR for shiro now...


anywho, those are my reasons for being more GAR for shiro than any others...

WOW When you put it like that, something starts throbbing in my underpants.....
what?
By the way. Didn't he have sex four times? 3xSakura and 1xRider (with the freakky-eyed Tohsaka dream thing)? Oh mAaaaan he got laid there twice as much than in Fate and four times more than in UBW! And if we count the ones not mentioned in the True End (the [in]famous wild shampoo sex :D).... well, that just leaves me speechless.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby NonExistence » November 24th, 2008, 5:54 am

abscess, too much info.

and yes, he did screw four times in HF. 3xSakura and 1xRider. and not to mention the attempted threesome in f/ha. see, shirou makes up for not having a harem by oversexing his girls. (yes, oversexing.)
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 24th, 2008, 6:17 am

Really you sure it's not Sakura wanting to rape the living daylights out of him instead? *chuckles*

In any case technically he does do it with Rider, but more along the line on how Shiki did Len in his dream... more or less there.
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Unread postby abscess » November 24th, 2008, 7:10 am

NonExistence wrote:abscess, too much info.

Yeah, maybe... juuuust maybe :)

Kid-Wolf wrote:Really you sure it's not Sakura wanting to rape the living daylights out of him instead? *chuckles*

In any case technically he does do it with Rider, but more along the line on how Shiki did Len in his dream... more or less there.

Hmm... not exactly. As I got it, Len projected some dream into Shiki's brain or something, not being nailed by Shiki. Rider did have sex with Shirou to replenish her magical stuff and be less of a burden to Sakura. Again, that's how I got it.

Anyway, what's so wrong of being raped by sultry woman? I see no wrong there! :lol:
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 24th, 2008, 7:21 am

Well as long as it's the mowan you love doing that then there's no problem in it though. *chuckles*

Well with what you've said now makes me wonder how did Rider project that dream then if it wasn't something that Len could do? I mean it looks like it's the same technique if you ask me, that's all.
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Unread postby Kansho » November 24th, 2008, 12:47 pm

Kid-Wolf wrote:Well as long as it's the mowan you love doing that then there's no problem in it though. *chuckles*

Well with what you've said now makes me wonder how did Rider project that dream then if it wasn't something that Len could do? I mean it looks like it's the same technique if you ask me, that's all.

Self Sealing - Temple of Darkness
Breaker Gorgon is the anti-mystic eye mask that Rider wears. It is a bounded field not unlike the Temple of Blood which envelops the shapeless island, except the Temple of Darkness seals the world out. To lure a human in it lets the user suck his blood through his dreams ; the target's consciousness is sealed in the Gorgon's heart. The dream is a nightmare mixing pleasure and sometimes, sex. When Medusa becomes a monster and Perseus turns it against herself through Kibisis, her nightmare has her picked on by her sisters Sthenno and Euryale. A nightmare can be anything, but to her who would never see her sisters again, it wasn't a bad dream.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » November 24th, 2008, 1:56 pm

Kansho wrote:
Kid-Wolf wrote:Well as long as it's the mowan you love doing that then there's no problem in it though. *chuckles*

Well with what you've said now makes me wonder how did Rider project that dream then if it wasn't something that Len could do? I mean it looks like it's the same technique if you ask me, that's all.

Self Sealing - Temple of Darkness
Breaker Gorgon is the anti-mystic eye mask that Rider wears. It is a bounded field not unlike the Temple of Blood which envelops the shapeless island, except the Temple of Darkness seals the world out. To lure a human in it lets the user suck his blood through his dreams ; the target's consciousness is sealed in the Gorgon's heart. The dream is a nightmare mixing pleasure and sometimes, sex. When Medusa becomes a monster and Perseus turns it against herself through Kibisis, her nightmare has her picked on by her sisters Sthenno and Euryale. A nightmare can be anything, but to her who would never see her sisters again, it wasn't a bad dream.




That is really confusing.

Rider is the one who must dream of Shirou in order to drink his blood, right?

mmm.....

Or is Shirou the one who dreams of Rider and because of that She is able to suck him dry?....
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