About people liking Rin [Spoilerz]

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Unread postby nobaka » December 19th, 2008, 4:56 am

Ah well. I find Rin plenty likeable, just not as a love interest. Maybe if there was a bit more development between them, but meh.

I still find Sakura wholly lacking in character.
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Unread postby MaruKyuu » December 20th, 2008, 3:04 am

Out of all the arc-characters, Sakura is my favorite, in terms of personality. I didn't like her at first, but she gets major character development in HF. However, one of her sins is clearly unforgivable.

She killed my favorite character in her arc. Unforgivable.


Of course, I don't like Rin's personality, though I do think it's funny when she threatens people. That, and for another reason.

She saves my favorite character in her arc. Unforgettable!
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Unread postby aldw » December 20th, 2008, 5:50 am

nobaka wrote:I still find Sakura wholly lacking in character.


Yeah, I could never really like Sakura that much, she needed a bit more something to her character to make her more interesting, that's what I thought was a stronger point in Tsukihime with Kohaku and Hisui.
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Unread postby abscess » December 21st, 2008, 11:16 am

aldw wrote:
nobaka wrote:I still find Sakura wholly lacking in character.


Yeah, I could never really like Sakura that much, she needed a bit more something to her character to make her more interesting, that's what I thought was a stronger point in Tsukihime with Kohaku and Hisui.

Yes, that is very true. I still don't completely grasp the reason I like Sakura the most... The same applies to why I don't like Rin all that much. Most of the times she takes the decisions I'd most likely take.... maybe it's the how was it done and not the what was done that bothers me... Anyway, I'm out. Haven't gotten a nice sleep in 2-3 days.... and its 4 am... Laters.
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Unread postby potaatti » December 22nd, 2008, 10:58 pm

Catastrophe wrote:
Kid-Wolf wrote:Although if you want something along yanderie you could compair Akiha in Vermillion mode with Dark Sakura, and I think you'll understand what yanderie is as well.


or you can simply post this.....
HOLY SHIT...RUUUUN!!!!!!!! :shock:
Image

if someone doesn't get what yandere is after seeing this feel free to call him/her a "total retarded"


Who the heck they are? (other than Sakura)
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Unread postby negum » December 22nd, 2008, 11:36 pm

potaatti wrote:Who the heck are they? (other than Sakura)

From the top

Euphemia - Code Geass
Asakura - Haruhi
Rena - Higurashi no Naku Koro ni
Internet-Rule 20: "Nothing is to be taken (too) seriously." <-- So true. :mrgreen:
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Unread postby Altima of the Gates » December 23rd, 2008, 12:59 am

abscess wrote:
aldw wrote:
nobaka wrote:I still find Sakura wholly lacking in character.


Yeah, I could never really like Sakura that much, she needed a bit more something to her character to make her more interesting, that's what I thought was a stronger point in Tsukihime with Kohaku and Hisui.

Yes, that is very true. I still don't completely grasp the reason I like Sakura the most... The same applies to why I don't like Rin all that much. Most of the times she takes the decisions I'd most likely take.... maybe it's the how was it done and not the what was done that bothers me... Anyway, I'm out. Haven't gotten a nice sleep in 2-3 days.... and its 4 am... Laters.


Wellll... if you can't find why you like sakura then I'll go ahead for you. Besides just being a very caring generous person, she's pretty intelligent. There is also the fact that she is a good listener, very serious when it comes to defending the people she likes, and does have strength of character. She was really funny in HF in my opinion, and despite all that happened, there was some good times had between her and Shiro. Also, she the one female who wouldn't find it the least bit embarassing to be affectionate to the guy she likes.

You may fault her for being weak, but as I've said before on other forums, her mindset has been warped due to the environment that she was in since she was FIVE YEARS OLD. And it went on for ELEVEN YEARS. That is a lasting negative influence. Put Rin in the same boat, and she would have most likely crumbled after a few days. This isn't saying that Rin is weak, but you don't put a child in that position and don't see something changed in their mindset. And its not something that two weeks, or even several months of "just caring" for a person can totally heal. Rin even realized that just beleiving that acting like everything was fine was a mistake, and things might have been different had they reconciled sooner. This doesn't excuse sakura totally, but it should make you understand what was going on.

I like Rin too, very much so. But even she saw that their were FATAL flaws to her personality. She's just got too much pride in her to change lol. :P In the scene where she asks tests Shirou's loyalty on the rooftop (the one that leads to the "Geas" ending if you answer "....I guess it can't be helped.") she say that she NEEDS a person to be the brakes for her. Saying that, she tends to do things her own way, blindingly charging forward, she wanted Shirou to be her buffer. In my opinion, its a very dangerous part of he perfectionist mentality, and her balancing her identity as a magus and as Tohsaka Rin, the person. This can and DOES (points at the "Superhero" ending) have disastrous results.

All this to say that Rin has some cracks in her as well, just as much as Sakura does. If anything, the Rin fans who hate Sakura are just using their model of what they believe a woman should be, rather than the character herself.

@abscess
And you say that Hisui and Kohaku have more personality than Sakura? Hisui? I say "Ha!" to you good sir.
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Unread postby naturesbless » December 23rd, 2008, 1:13 am

First off: ha, at the person who thinks Hisui has more personality than Sakura.

Now, I like Rin. I find her physically attractive. I like her character... I also like her dress.

I don't think Rin has an over-inflated fanbase though. I hear talk of the other characters quite a bit... hm, Not much to say on this topic that hasn't been said already... ha

I agree with Altima on the fact that Rin is quite a prideful one. She has many character flaws, but I like her all the more for that... Okay, that's all for me... ha XD
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Unread postby Mkilbride » December 23rd, 2008, 3:32 am

Hisui does have more personality than Sakura, and by far.
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Unread postby Altima of the Gates » December 23rd, 2008, 3:53 am

Mkilbride wrote:Hisui does have more personality than Sakura, and by far.


:shock: :? :lol:

Care to elaborate? Because, and pardon me here, I think that's total BS.
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Unread postby Mkilbride » December 23rd, 2008, 5:17 am

Have you played Tsukihime? If you have, then you're lying to yourself. If you haven't, I can understand.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » December 23rd, 2008, 5:19 am

Well Hisui did have a personality when she was younger, but ended up acting like the way Kohaku was when she was a child. In any case compaired to Sakura Hisui could be kind of the polar opposite in certain traits and skills nothing more.
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Unread postby abscess » December 23rd, 2008, 6:18 am

Yay! I got "ha"-ed by two people on the net! It makes me feel all "giddy" and shit!
Think about it, will ya? Hisui and Kohaku can be thought of archetypes for Sakura:

Sakura is caring towards Shirou to the point of doing things that were unexpected of her (that's a good thing). Example: Sakura decides to stay when Rin says she will stay.
Hisui is also caring towards Shiki. It's not because she was the maid appointed to him, it goes way back
when they were children: Shiki was scared of living in that mansion thinking people would hurt him just as what happened in the Nanaya village, Hisui went to try and convince him to go out and have fun with them.


Sakura cares about her sister. After UBW she pretty much ends sliding towards oblivion so Rin can stay with Shirou. She stays in the Matou household and probably will still be getting raped in every possible way by the sexy worms and our beloved Shinji.
Hisui cares for Kohaku.
She decides to take the aloof role and stay like that so her sister can keep the warped happiness she has found in playing that role.


Shirou is the only man capable of making Sakura find real happinness (sorry Shinji, you are not accounted for :) ). That's pretty much proved in HF.
The same goes for Shiki, and it's even stated in Hisui's good end. That also applies to Kohaku (that's a guess of mine).
For me, that point detracts to the characters, but it applies to all three of them.

Sakura is more complex when compared to only Hisui or Kohaku, I give you that. She has her dark personality that goes on to fuckin' munch a huge load of people in town (and feels like shit afterwards). Now, since I am talking about Hisui and Kohaku,
Kohaku was the one orchestrating the downfall of the Tohno family by making SHIKI go crazy, waking Akiha's blood and playing with Shiki using drugs.
For me that's quite a feat to do when you can't use magic. Sakura can and does use magic. Not only that, she was being used by Zouken until the end when he got squashed by her, not the one using someone else.

Now, this is pretty much my personal view, but I find Hisui and Kohaku (as separate characters) more believable than Sakura. That probably is because of the nature of how was it that they got into that situation. While Sakura got crazy due to constant raping from magical worms and our fave zany char, Shinji (you just gotta love 'im, right?), Hisui and Kohaku were exposed to child abuse by factors that are more common IRL
(Kohaku: raped by Makihisa and then by SHIKI - Hisui: Being told that her sister was being raped practically in a daily basis so she wouldn't be touched by them)


I agree with Altima about Sakura, I'm not saying that Sakura is a character of a lower quality when compared to Hisui and Kohaku (alone or together). It's just that I see Hisui and Kohaku as archetypes for Sakura and, to tell you the truth, I don't see Sakura as being too much different from the yandere-type of characters. From what little I know, Hisui or Kohaku follow those other archetypes a bit less than how Sakura does. Thus, I find them more appealing to me.

P.S: Do correct me if I'm making any mistakes. I'm about to finish Ever 17 and when it comes to videogames, that's all I've been thinking about.
Bit o' rant about it:)
.... Seriously... so far, Coco's ending has just seemed like the writers said something like "Let's just fuckin' put a super-good ending!! YAAAAAAY!"... I mean... it's good and all, but when the plot-dumping started I was like "... Yeah... I kinda got that already...". After that, they went on and on and on repeating the same stuff over and over!!
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby Altima of the Gates » December 23rd, 2008, 2:33 pm

abscess wrote:Yay! I got "ha"-ed by two people on the net! It makes me feel all "giddy" and shit!
Think about it, will ya? Hisui and Kohaku can be thought of archetypes for Sakura:

Sakura is caring towards Shirou to the point of doing things that were unexpected of her (that's a good thing). Example: Sakura decides to stay when Rin says she will stay.
Hisui is also caring towards Shiki. It's not because she was the maid appointed to him, it goes way back
when they were children: Shiki was scared of living in that mansion thinking people would hurt him just as what happened in the Nanaya village, Hisui went to try and convince him to go out and have fun with them.


Sakura cares about her sister. After UBW she pretty much ends sliding towards oblivion so Rin can stay with Shirou. She stays in the Matou household and probably will still be getting raped in every possible way by the sexy worms and our beloved Shinji.
Hisui cares for Kohaku.
She decides to take the aloof role and stay like that so her sister can keep the warped happiness she has found in playing that role.


Shirou is the only man capable of making Sakura find real happinness (sorry Shinji, you are not accounted for :) ). That's pretty much proved in HF.
The same goes for Shiki, and it's even stated in Hisui's good end. That also applies to Kohaku (that's a guess of mine).
For me, that point detracts to the characters, but it applies to all three of them.

Sakura is more complex when compared to only Hisui or Kohaku, I give you that. She has her dark personality that goes on to fuckin' munch a huge load of people in town (and feels like shit afterwards). Now, since I am talking about Hisui and Kohaku,
Kohaku was the one orchestrating the downfall of the Tohno family by making SHIKI go crazy, waking Akiha's blood and playing with Shiki using drugs.
For me that's quite a feat to do when you can't use magic. Sakura can and does use magic. Not only that, she was being used by Zouken until the end when he got squashed by her, not the one using someone else.

Now, this is pretty much my personal view, but I find Hisui and Kohaku (as separate characters) more believable than Sakura. That probably is because of the nature of how was it that they got into that situation. While Sakura got crazy due to constant raping from magical worms and our fave zany char, Shinji (you just gotta love 'im, right?), Hisui and Kohaku were exposed to child abuse by factors that are more common IRL
(Kohaku: raped by Makihisa and then by SHIKI - Hisui: Being told that her sister was being raped practically in a daily basis so she wouldn't be touched by them)


I agree with Altima about Sakura, I'm not saying that Sakura is a character of a lower quality when compared to Hisui and Kohaku (alone or together). It's just that I see Hisui and Kohaku as archetypes for Sakura and, to tell you the truth, I don't see Sakura as being too much different from the yandere-type of characters. From what little I know, Hisui or Kohaku follow those other archetypes a bit less than how Sakura does. Thus, I find them more appealing to me.

P.S: Do correct me if I'm making any mistakes. I'm about to finish Ever 17 and when it comes to videogames, that's all I've been thinking about.
Bit o' rant about it:)
.... Seriously... so far, Coco's ending has just seemed like the writers said something like "Let's just fuckin' put a super-good ending!! YAAAAAAY!"... I mean... it's good and all, but when the plot-dumping started I was like "... Yeah... I kinda got that already...". After that, they went on and on and on repeating the same stuff over and over!!


I can agree with most of the facts you put up, I have played Tsukihime myself and know of K+H's circumstances. Its not that I don't like them either btw. However, I cannot agree with you saying that Sakura was catering to the yandere archetype more than Kohaku at least. I mean, with yanderes, they have one burning obsession that if you take it away, they break apart. For example, Kohaku's revenge and her making herself into a doll to shield her from her suffering. Once she realized she wasn't a doll, what happened? She broke apart (well she was already broken, but still you get what I mean). The same you can say for Sakura in wanting to not lose herself to the dark influence whispering in her ears, but when she killed Shinji, she pretty much went "Ah, fuck it, I'm just too impure." and broke apart there. Besides, if I was gonna put something that put her on a different level than Kohaku and Hisui, its that she went to school, got out of the house, and made some friends at least. there was loads of good interaction with her in Fate at school in the archery club, and even more in hollow.

In that I just can't see where you can say they are more appealing or believable, Sakura was drugged up and poisoned as well as being magically influenced you know. Also, Kohaku had the freedom of going behind Makihisa's, SHIKI's, and Akiha's back to further her objective. Sakura did not. And by the time she could, it was too late, as she was already put into a mentality that said "Disobeying Grandfather is not good, I'm gonna end up suffocating in the pit again or worse if I do." Besides, she probably tried.


Also, read Fate/zero before looking at this:

Oh, and look at Fate/Zero, Kariya, the one guy who was like a shining beacon for her in that house, was killed off by Zouken just like that. So for a young child, things like that would stay with you, that instilling of fear and terror.


@Mkilbride:

Yes I have played Tsukihime, and rather than saying that Kohaku and Hisui have NO personality (like you think I mean), I eamnt that it was laughable to say that it was much more than Sakura.
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Unread postby aldw » December 23rd, 2008, 6:30 pm

The interplay between Kohaku and Hisui made their story presentation more interesting to me, but the presentation for Sakura in her route seemed a bit too 'sterile' for my tastes, which is why I couldn't connect with her route. If anything the anime seemed better for me regarding Sakura's character.

Wrt Rin, I like Rin all the more because she has character flaws, not in spite of them, as they make her more real rather than merely an ideal template of a person.
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Unread postby Nerroth » December 23rd, 2008, 9:36 pm

There is no reason to say that, out of everyone on the entire planet, over the years that the characters would (presumably) live after Fate or UBW, that there would be not a single person out there who could help bring Sakura happiness...

...and while I would have been happier to see Shinji die in UBW, it's possible that the effect the Grail will eventually have on him could be akin to that which afflicted Kiritsugu - only the Emiya magus was, well, a trained magus, who took a long time to wither away from the ichor's effects.

So, if this is the case, his days are numbered - and as he gets weaker, he'd be even less able to hurt her again, even if he wanted to try and revive some of his reprehensible old habits.


And with the Grail System dismantled, the reliance on the worms to affect her would be less pressing, though of course it would still be of paramount importance to rid her of them sooner rather than later.



But this is what pisses me off the most about Fate and UBW - Nasu wasn't bothered to try and solve any of this in the story as written...

...and of course, fics intended to do just that can only go so far.
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Unread postby aldw » December 23rd, 2008, 9:54 pm

Nerroth wrote:There is no reason to say that, out of everyone on the entire planet, over the years that the characters would (presumably) live after Fate or UBW, that there would be not a single person out there who could help bring Sakura happiness...


Yeah, that pissed me off too, it's one of those conceits that pops up in many anime and manga that there's only ever 'one' person that can be a true partner, even though there are so many counterpoints to that in both reality and fiction.

But this is what pisses me off the most about Fate and UBW - Nasu wasn't bothered to try and solve any of this in the story as written...

...and of course, fics intended to do just that can only go so far.


Nasu himself tends to have a similar problem with George Lucas in organizing his canon, which is why for me making a good fanfic is a stepping stone to making a better original story equivalent (in a sense).
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Unread postby Altima of the Gates » December 24th, 2008, 6:42 am

aldw wrote:
Nerroth wrote:There is no reason to say that, out of everyone on the entire planet, over the years that the characters would (presumably) live after Fate or UBW, that there would be not a single person out there who could help bring Sakura happiness...


Yeah, that pissed me off too, it's one of those conceits that pops up in many anime and manga that there's only ever 'one' person that can be a true partner, even though there are so many counterpoints to that in both reality and fiction.

But this is what pisses me off the most about Fate and UBW - Nasu wasn't bothered to try and solve any of this in the story as written...

...and of course, fics intended to do just that can only go so far.


Nasu himself tends to have a similar problem with George Lucas in organizing his canon, which is why for me making a good fanfic is a stepping stone to making a better original story equivalent (in a sense).


Well:

1.) I can agree somewhat. Although the Good end for UBW kinda breaks that rule somewhat. Hell lets look at hollow, and the threesome with Sakura and Rider that Sakura condoned. Nasu didn't go for the "one person, one path" setup because he thought that their is only one true romantic partner or w/e. I think it was just for convenience and story focus.

2.) Whoa there. I wouldn't mind what you said but it was just how you said it. I can agree that a good fanfic can give us a cathartic feeling of accomplishment that we fulfilled something we didn't see in the original work, but to say the equivalent of "Damn this shit blows, I need to remake in my image to fit what I thought the author meant the characters were like," is not fair to the original author at all. Fanfics are our respect to the material we love so much and want to pool our own creativity onto it to create something of our own. Not something to hold over the original author's face, saying "Ha! I CAN do it better!" Remember, these characters are HIS characters. Fics are fine, overblown hubris is not.

@Nerroth
I agree that we should have seen what happened to Sakura at the end of Fate and UBW, but really I can see why Nasu did that, in anticipation of the HF storyline. Call it negligent, call it unfair, but it just happened that way. Your fic, AMoT was good to bring something new to the plate in tha UBW ending, but really, short of rewriting both scenarios yourself bit by bit and threatening Nasu to make it canon, this is all you can do. Its a great fic, you gave her a great love in that storyline, so you should be satisfied.
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Unread postby aldw » December 24th, 2008, 2:53 pm

Altima of the Gates wrote:2.) Whoa there. I wouldn't mind what you said but it was just how you said it. I can agree that a good fanfic can give us a cathartic feeling of accomplishment that we fulfilled something we didn't see in the original work, but to say the equivalent of "Damn this shit blows, I need to remake in my image to fit what I thought the author meant the characters were like," is not fair to the original author at all. Fanfics are our respect to the material we love so much and want to pool our own creativity onto it to create something of our own. Not something to hold over the original author's face, saying "Ha! I CAN do it better!" Remember, these characters are HIS characters. Fics are fine, overblown hubris is not.


I was referring to an original (original world and characters) setting of my own creation, not a fanfic. Nasu's work is but an inspiration for my own here, that is what I was referring to when saying using a fanfic idea to make my own original work.
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Unread postby Nerroth » December 25th, 2008, 12:43 am

Altima of the Gates wrote:1.) I can agree somewhat. Although the Good end for UBW kinda breaks that rule somewhat. Hell lets look at hollow, and the threesome with Sakura and Rider that Sakura condoned. Nasu didn't go for the "one person, one path" setup because he thought that their is only one true romantic partner or w/e. I think it was just for convenience and story focus.


To be fair, the issue of UBW-Good being a case of threesomes going forward is far from clear - though it is a possibility, it is merely one of many options which may stem from that ending.

@Nerroth
I agree that we should have seen what happened to Sakura at the end of Fate and UBW, but really I can see why Nasu did that, in anticipation of the HF storyline. Call it negligent, call it unfair, but it just happened that way. Your fic, AMoT was good to bring something new to the plate in tha UBW ending, but really, short of rewriting both scenarios yourself bit by bit and threatening Nasu to make it canon, this is all you can do. Its a great fic, you gave her a great love in that storyline, so you should be satisfied.


But is it so bad if I am not?

I tend to see fics as representations of settings, as much (if not more so) as tales in and of themselves - and while making the choice to focus on one side of a setting over another is fair enough, the world-builder in me still wants there to be that degree of consistency...

...and the Sakura fan in me wants her to receive justice (which I try to do in F/TF, too, as it happens).

Oh, and I wouldn't want to see either Fate or UBW re-written, as you suggested - just a bit more done by way of a follow-up, either as a separate story or as an add-on at the end, to show this kind of thing.
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