Question about Zelretch(SPOILERS)

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Question about Zelretch(SPOILERS)

Unread postby Rokudaime » November 11th, 2008, 6:30 am

ok,so,the well known fact that Type-Moon's Tsukihime Universe,and Fate Universe,are actually one and the same,is one thing that intrigues me. ^^ I've noticed most of the common things too,but one thing I cannot find.It says on Wikipedia that Kishua Zelretch Schweinorg,one of the 4 Magus's in the world capable of "true sorcery",is first introduced in Tsukihime.but I have played through all of Tsukihime,Kagetsu Tohya,and the Tsukihime Plus+Disc,and I have never met him,seen anyone else in the game talk to him,or heard talk of him.I was introduced to the guy in the Heavens Feel scenario in Fate/stay night.So,my question is,just where in Tsukihime does Zelretch appear,or is mentioned? :-/


on a sidenote,I did notice Ilya mentioning Aozaki Aoko(another of the sorcerers,who makes a decent appearance in Tsukihime) in the HF route in Fate. ;-)
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Unread postby Blue Gunner » November 11th, 2008, 7:31 am

The dagger named Zelretch appears in Fate, however the man himself is only referred to in the games. In case you were looking for references, he's usually referred to as "the old man" or "the old man of the jewels", I believe. He's in the prologue material, where it talks a little about Arc discussing life with him when she was little.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 11th, 2008, 1:54 pm

He is mentioned in Kagetsu Tohya since he was originally Len's creator. Also, Arc explains that she worked with him at least once, and was given Len as a gift for her help. So in other words he can be a reall pervert since he is also the creator of the Kaleido staves. One named Ruby and the other named Saphire. I mean why else do you think Rin has mixed feeling about him, due to the fact she was Kaeido Ruby, and was embarassed when she was stll a kid though.

Although I would think this might be more along the line of a General Type-Moon Chater since this one can really go either way since he tends to go anywhere within the Nasuverse itself.
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Unread postby Rokudaime » November 11th, 2008, 10:53 pm

kei.thanks guys. :) now that you mention it,I think I read somewhere that the time Arcueid worked with him that you mention,was when they joined forces against one of the Dead Apostles(can't remember which) and defeated him,and that was also when Zelretch was bitten,and turned into a Dead Apostle himself(still remains an ally of humans and the True Ancestors though.well,humans and Arcueid that is,I guess,since she's the only True Ancestor left).
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Unread postby Undream » November 12th, 2008, 12:24 am

Rokudaime wrote:kei.thanks guys. :) now that you mention it,I think I read somewhere that the time Arcueid worked with him that you mention,was when they joined forces against one of the Dead Apostles(can't remember which) and defeated him,and that was also when Zelretch was bitten,and turned into a Dead Apostle himself(still remains an ally of humans and the True Ancestors though.well,humans and Arcueid that is,I guess,since she's the only True Ancestor left).


Well, if my memory serves, he was bitten by Crimson Moon...but didnt Zelretch defeat him alone, by using magic?
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 12th, 2008, 1:30 am

Hey I thought Altrouge had something to do with Zel becoming a DA. Although I'm not entirely sure about that now. In any case I thought after he defeated th eCrimson Moon, Altrouge saved him or something like that.
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Unread postby Blue Gunner » November 12th, 2008, 2:46 am

Kid-Wolf wrote:He is mentioned in Kagetsu Tohya since he was originally Len's creator.


Please let me know where you got this from... It wasn't in the version of Einnashe I read. As far as I know, he's never directly interfered with humanity other than helping to set up the Heaven's Feel ritual (the Holy Grail War in Fuyuki) since defeating the Crimson Moon and having his blood sucked. Also, I've never heard of a Sapphire kaleidostick, where did you find that?

The old man that Arc worked with was indeed Len's master, but he was an ordinary magus, who Arcueid worked with to destroy Einnashe, and Arc agreed to look after Len once the old man passed away.

And yes, Zelretch did fight and defeat the Crimson Moon, but not before having his blood sucked, hence his position as Number 4 on the list of 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors. No, Altrouge had nothing to do with it.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 12th, 2008, 3:38 am

Well I asumed that since Arc did worth for Zel once though so he's the only magus that fits the idea there. In any case that's what I kind of took frm that though. Unfortunately if you're saying that then I've interpereted the setting wrong then.

As for the Saphire stick, well he created Ruby, so he had to of created Saphire right? Since well I think it gets explained in that Illya becoming a magical girl manga.
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Unread postby AlinSabel » November 12th, 2008, 3:41 am

Kid-Wolf wrote:As for the Saphire stick, well he created Ruby, so he had to of created Saphire right? Since well I think it gets explained in that Illya becoming a magical girl manga.

Is that even canon?
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 12th, 2008, 3:42 am

Well that's what I would like to know about that as well, since I'm no longer sure anymore.
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Unread postby Blue Gunner » November 12th, 2008, 4:00 am

Kid-Wolf wrote:Well I asumed that since Arc did worth for Zel once though so he's the only magus that fits the idea there.


I don't mean to be tearing apart your posts, but where did you get that idea from? Zelretch was one of Arc's tutors when she was young, I don't recall there ever having been a mention of her having worked with, for or against him. She worked with an unknown magus against Einnashe. And I'm fairly sure that this Sapphire stick manga isn't canon. Not having seen it, I wouldn't be able to tell, however. But I'd bet against it.

On the original topic....

Read the prologue, and you'll have about all the info on Zelretch there is. He also appears in Heaven's Feel, apparently, but I'm not up to that part. If you aren't satisfied, read the Type Moon wiki article.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 12th, 2008, 4:29 am

Well I kind of put 2 and 2 together on that one so that's how I had the idea with Arc and Zel. Although I guess I was wrong on that part.

As for Saphire well since Luvia is technically Rin's rival in every single way, and now that Fate/Primer Illya is a legitamate Type-Moon manga series that's where Shpire comes into the mix. Besides with that one I kind of went with the rival between Rin and Luvia that they would also be Kaeido Ruby and Kaeido Saphire. I mean doesn't Ruby need a rvial?

As for HF he's only mentioned about being the creatore of the blade, and in the True HF Ending.

Also, don't worry about tearing apart my posts this is sometimes my take on the works though. So no worries.
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Unread postby Rokudaime » November 12th, 2008, 7:23 am

BlueGunner is correct about the old magus that created Len and helped Arcueid against Einnashe being an ordinary,unknown magus,and not Zelretch.I remember that now,I just forgot,and misplaced him with Zelretch.And as far as Altrouge helping Zelretch after he had been bitten by Crimson Moon goes,that wouldn't make any sense in the first place,since Altrouge and her followers are enemies of humanity,and Zelretch is an ally of humanity.so indeed,Altrouge had nothing to do with it.

Zelretch is mentioned in HF as being one of the sorcerers,being able to travel between dimensions,and being the creator of the Gem Sword Zelretch.All of this info comes from Rin.and he also congratulates Rin on her achievement,and kinda "saves" her ass,in the HF True Ending,but we don't get to see this,Rin just tells about it.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 12th, 2008, 3:11 pm

Yeah it's like Zel gets an honorable mention in the HF True Ending, and that's pretty much it. I kind of wonder if there is more info on him other then that wiki site.
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Unread postby Veldril » November 12th, 2008, 5:36 pm

Kid-Wolf wrote:Hey I thought Altrouge had something to do with Zel becoming a DA. Although I'm not entirely sure about that now. In any case I thought after he defeated th eCrimson Moon, Altrouge saved him or something like that.


He was bitten by Crimson Moon when Crimson Moon tried to crash the moon on earth. Before Zelretch killed Crimson Moon, Crimson Moon bit Zelretch and turned him to DA. Altrouge plays no role in that conflict.
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Unread postby radical_number6 » November 20th, 2008, 6:16 pm

does the old man of jewels sucks blood then?? does he gets urges and sucks blooooooood? blaaahhh blaaahhh blaaahhhhh. need BLOOODDD!!!
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Unread postby AvatarofRage » November 21st, 2008, 4:59 am

It's implied he's powerful enough to do what Arc does and repress the urge completely by using a good degree of his power.
He's also the only DA that has sides with humans
I don't quite remember, but isn't he involved with both the church, and the mage's association?
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Unread postby gexer64 » November 21st, 2008, 5:20 am

AvatarofRage wrote:It's implied he's powerful enough to do what Arc does and repress the urge completely by using a good degree of his power.
He's also the only DA that has sides with humans
I don't quite remember, but isn't he involved with both the church, and the mage's association?


I don't know about the church but he is with the MA. He is also known for traumatizing the students.
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Unread postby AvatarofRage » November 21st, 2008, 2:59 pm

I dunno, I mean, i seem to recall hearing he's part of the same execution detail that Ciel's a part of, but I could be mixing him up with someone else...
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Unread postby Nerroth » November 21st, 2008, 5:27 pm

Merem Solomon is the one who is involved with the Burial Agency.
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