Shirou v. Shirou [SPOILERS]

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

Moderator: Staffers

Shirou v. Shirou [SPOILERS]

Unread postby nobaka » November 5th, 2008, 8:58 pm

The general consensus seems to be that HF Shirou is endlessly stronger than UBW Shirou. I don't get it. HF Shirou is completely powerless on his own. Even after receiving the GARm, he can only use it a few times before his brain explodes. While I agree that UBW Shirou would have NO FUCKING CHANCE against Black Berserker, I don't really consider that a basis for overall growth since he would have been unable to do it sans GARm.
User avatar
nobaka
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 581
Joined: January 11th, 2008, 6:12 am

Unread postby that one guy » November 5th, 2008, 9:17 pm

HF Shirou would win, every time. Even after he loses the arm, HF Shirou has the battle experience necessary to beat UBW Shirou. And, even if UBW Shirou could get off UBW, he still wouldn't be good enough to beat HF Shirou. I mean, this is the same guy who beat Black Saber on his own, and nearly killed her. That's damned impressive.
User avatar
that one guy
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 481
Joined: August 17th, 2008, 11:11 pm
Location: How should I know?

Unread postby Kcuf » November 5th, 2008, 9:20 pm

HF Shirou got more variety of skills he can use, here are the examples: "Nine lives Blade Works", "4-layer Rho Aius", "Caladbolg II", and "Kansho/Bakuya 3-pair combo", plus all the weapons UBW Shirou can use. Also he got a reinforced body and almost a servants speed. I would say that HF Shirou wins, heck, he got access to UBW after 2 years.

Excuse my English...
Kcuf
Addict
 
Posts: 69
Joined: November 3rd, 2008, 7:36 pm

Unread postby Rikh » November 5th, 2008, 9:28 pm

yah but the point is
HF shiro will die very soon after one activation of the arm. The first time he uses it, he will lose the ability to even go to sleep, as his mind will break down if its not focused continuously. HF shiro vs UBW shiro will always end in a draw, as UBW shiro will survive after a battle, while HF shiro is then a timebomb that will die shortly after the usage of archers arm


Thats why i believe UBW shiro is more capable than HF shiro. UBW shiro can reach higher levels over time, as HF shiro is unable to
User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread postby negum » November 5th, 2008, 9:36 pm

I think what nobaka is trying to say is that HF Shirou's abilities come all from archer's arm.
So his growth is in fact not as big as UBW Shirou's.

Yeah, HF Shirou beats Saber. But his using Archer's experience, fightingstyle and has an reiforced body.
UBW Shirou, on the other hand, is fighting on a par with Gil without this stuff.

I'm not saying that UBW Shirou can beat HF Shirou in a fight. And I'm not saying that HF Shirou will win either. =P

Edit: Seems it took me too long to type. -_-;
User avatar
negum
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 186
Joined: March 27th, 2008, 10:54 pm

Unread postby nobaka » November 5th, 2008, 10:58 pm

Kcuf wrote:HF Shirou got more variety of skills he can use, here are the examples: "Nine lives Blade Works", "4-layer Rho Aius", "Caladbolg II", and "Kansho/Bakuya 3-pair combo", plus all the weapons UBW Shirou can use. Also he got a reinforced body and almost a servants speed. I would say that HF Shirou wins, heck, he got access to UBW after 2 years.

Excuse my English...


The only thing that he made on his own is Nine Lives Blade Works. His body didn't get reinforced at all. It was just as weak as it had been (with regular physical training). Speed, battle experience, and all other weapons/techniques come from GARm.

Edit: Negum: Yes. UBW Shirou BEATS Gilgamesh.
User avatar
nobaka
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 581
Joined: January 11th, 2008, 6:12 am

Unread postby Rikh » November 6th, 2008, 3:13 am

nobaka wrote:
Kcuf wrote:HF Shirou got more variety of skills he can use, here are the examples: "Nine lives Blade Works", "4-layer Rho Aius", "Caladbolg II", and "Kansho/Bakuya 3-pair combo", plus all the weapons UBW Shirou can use. Also he got a reinforced body and almost a servants speed. I would say that HF Shirou wins, heck, he got access to UBW after 2 years.

Excuse my English...


The only thing that he made on his own is Nine Lives Blade Works. His body didn't get reinforced at all. It was just as weak as it had been (with regular physical training). Speed, battle experience, and all other weapons/techniques come from GARm.

Edit: Negum: Yes. UBW Shirou BEATS Gilgamesh.


eh he didnt do that on his own
HF shiro doesn't even know he is capable of tracing swords on his own until very late in the game, and then he only does so after inheriting knowledge from archer

And for nine lives, that was pretty much all his arms work. He had boosted stamina, and servant like speed by that point (example: him and kotomine running at like 50mph from berserker.... Also jumping from an equivalent nine story building and surviving...)

He did manage to copy berserkers sword once, but it was instantly shattered. for the second round, he used archers arm. Unable to use Unlimited Blade Works, he created Nine Live Blade Works based off of the NP of Hercules's sword
At least that's what i interpreted
User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread postby Raitei » November 6th, 2008, 3:16 am

nobaka wrote:
Kcuf wrote:HF Shirou got more variety of skills he can use, here are the examples: "Nine lives Blade Works", "4-layer Rho Aius", "Caladbolg II", and "Kansho/Bakuya 3-pair combo", plus all the weapons UBW Shirou can use. Also he got a reinforced body and almost a servants speed. I would say that HF Shirou wins, heck, he got access to UBW after 2 years.

Excuse my English...


The only thing that he made on his own is Nine Lives Blade Works. His body didn't get reinforced at all. It was just as weak as it had been (with regular physical training). Speed, battle experience, and all other weapons/techniques come from GARm.

Edit: Negum: Yes. UBW Shirou BEATS Gilgamesh.
sun tzu once said that retreat != defeat. :)
oh, and as a sidenote, magic circuit activation = slight boost in speed, strength, and stamina. so additional circuits = additional boost.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence
User avatar
Raitei
OMG! WTF WHO SET THIS TITLE! LULZ
 
Posts: 2277
Joined: August 7th, 2007, 12:26 pm
Location: Distant wilderness

Unread postby nobaka » November 6th, 2008, 4:08 am

Raitei wrote:
nobaka wrote:
Kcuf wrote:HF Shirou got more variety of skills he can use, here are the examples: "Nine lives Blade Works", "4-layer Rho Aius", "Caladbolg II", and "Kansho/Bakuya 3-pair combo", plus all the weapons UBW Shirou can use. Also he got a reinforced body and almost a servants speed. I would say that HF Shirou wins, heck, he got access to UBW after 2 years.

Excuse my English...


The only thing that he made on his own is Nine Lives Blade Works. His body didn't get reinforced at all. It was just as weak as it had been (with regular physical training). Speed, battle experience, and all other weapons/techniques come from GARm.

Edit: Negum: Yes. UBW Shirou BEATS Gilgamesh.
sun tzu once said that retreat != defeat. :)
oh, and as a sidenote, magic circuit activation = slight boost in speed, strength, and stamina. so additional circuits = additional boost.


Sun Tzu is also dead. :P (lulz)

In that fight, Shirou removes the shroud and then his mind goes through a quick list of what's been gained from Archer.



Also:

"Emiya Shirou cannot handle this giant sword./
But---my left arm will definitely reproduce the strength of my enemy."

Edit: Wow. Doesn't FEEL like I've posted here 200 times.
User avatar
nobaka
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 581
Joined: January 11th, 2008, 6:12 am

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 6th, 2008, 4:34 am

I thought of it this way for Shirou:

HF (GAR because of the arm, and acting like a real Master in the first place) > UBW (Idiot going GAR, and he even fought Arhcer so that should mean something) >>>> Fate (total noob)


So with that in mind I can understnad no one cares about Shirou form the Fate side, but the UBW vs the HF version is kind of a toss-up since they have different strengths and weeknesses in each storyline though.
User avatar
Kid-Wolf
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
 
Posts: 1833
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 8:08 pm
Location: Inside the Depletion Garden

Unread postby Raitei » November 6th, 2008, 4:36 am

Sun Tzu is also dead. :P (lulz)
yeah, but that doesn't deny the fact that retreat != defeat in every term, lol.
Kid-Wolf wrote:I thought of it this way for Shirou:

HF (GAR because of the arm, and acting like a real Master in the first place) > UBW (Idiot going GAR, and he even fought Arhcer so that should mean something) >>>> Fate (total noob)


So with that in mind I can understnad no one cares about Shirou form the Fate side, but the UBW vs the HF version is kind of a toss-up since they have different strengths and weeknesses in each storyline though.
strength and ability-wise, yes. but in maturity as a character, ubw shirou sux n00b ass. :P
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence
User avatar
Raitei
OMG! WTF WHO SET THIS TITLE! LULZ
 
Posts: 2277
Joined: August 7th, 2007, 12:26 pm
Location: Distant wilderness

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 6th, 2008, 4:42 am

Raitei wrote:
Kid-Wolf wrote:I thought of it this way for Shirou:

HF (GAR because of the arm, and acting like a real Master in the first place) > UBW (Idiot going GAR, and he even fought Arhcer so that should mean something) >>>> Fate (total noob)


So with that in mind I can understnad no one cares about Shirou form the Fate side, but the UBW vs the HF version is kind of a toss-up since they have different strengths and weeknesses in each storyline though.
strength and ability-wise, yes. but in maturity as a character, ubw shirou sux n00b ass. :P


Hence the reason for him being called a total idiot. I mean he might be worse personality wise then he was in Fate. Although if we're going by personality traits I think it's like this:

HF(Gar) > Fate(reckless but has his moments) >/< UBW(idoitcly reckless without Saber)


Well that's my take though.
User avatar
Kid-Wolf
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
 
Posts: 1833
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 8:08 pm
Location: Inside the Depletion Garden

Unread postby gexer64 » November 6th, 2008, 5:16 am

I thought that Shirou's increase in speed was due to the arm changing shirou's body to become archer like. Is this mistaken?


NLBW sucks cuz' it doesn't have a kick ass CG. :D
In a single answer lies a thousand questions.
User avatar
gexer64
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 342
Joined: August 9th, 2008, 5:09 pm

Unread postby fakeremiya » November 6th, 2008, 5:57 am

gexer64 wrote:
I thought that Shirou's increase in speed was due to the arm changing shirou's body to become archer like. Is this mistaken?


NLBW sucks cuz' it doesn't have a kick ass CG. :D


NLBW does have CG but its in the Realta Nua ver. :D
His general running speed did increase because of Archer arm starting to influence his body, but the attack itself NLBW is just godspeed fast.

As for the consensus of HF Shirou. He's only stronger because he can use Archer's arm as well as gain Archer's experience, history, knowedge. etc; but as it has been mentioned the mintue he uses it he becomes a time bomb.

I still think he's better than UBW Shirou, despite UBW Shirou using his own power but him being naive and immature just drags him down actually making Fate Shirou better in terms of persona wise in my opinion.
User avatar
fakeremiya
Might just like this board
 
Posts: 31
Joined: March 18th, 2008, 5:40 am
Location: Fuyuki City

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 6th, 2008, 6:12 am

fakeremiya wrote:
As for the consensus of HF Shirou. He's only stronger because he can use Archer's arm as well as gain Archer's experience, history, knowedge. etc; but as it has been mentioned the mintue he uses it he becomes a time bomb.

I still think he's better than UBW Shirou, despite UBW Shirou using his own power but him being naive and immature just drags him down actually making Fate Shirou better in terms of persona wise in my opinion.


Oh yeah, since you mentioned that
he does try not to use GARcher's arm because of that fact. Although it kind of makes you wonder how and why Shirou was able to have that arm with no problems at all. Not only that, but he was able to pick up the knowlegde that Archer had all this time, but instead of the way UBW did it with an epic fight, it was more like ad-hocked sugery though.
User avatar
Kid-Wolf
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
 
Posts: 1833
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 8:08 pm
Location: Inside the Depletion Garden

Unread postby nanaya_shinya » November 6th, 2008, 6:37 am

HF Shirou, insta-GAR but die quicker.

or

UBW Shirou, slow but sure path to GAR...

Hmmm, which to choose?
!すでのな
User avatar
nanaya_shinya
OMEGA DESU!
 
Posts: 1177
Joined: July 25th, 2008, 11:46 am
Location: Ahnenerbe Cafe, Beast's Lair branch, lurking the KanColle threads.

Unread postby Nerroth » November 6th, 2008, 6:46 am

Slow but sure.

Besides, if you were given a choice between living an UBW or HF route, it would be about more than what happens to you.

It would (in theory, at least) also be about the impact the War would thus have on the city at large.


And besides, what's to stop going after Zouken in the aftermath of UBW, anyway? Assuming they find out about Sakura and figure out a way to save her, that is. Plus, with the War over, he'd have a hard time trying to summon Hassan...
User avatar
Nerroth
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 285
Joined: June 22nd, 2007, 1:35 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Unread postby Raitei » November 6th, 2008, 7:01 am

Kid-Wolf wrote:
fakeremiya wrote:
As for the consensus of HF Shirou. He's only stronger because he can use Archer's arm as well as gain Archer's experience, history, knowedge. etc; but as it has been mentioned the mintue he uses it he becomes a time bomb.

I still think he's better than UBW Shirou, despite UBW Shirou using his own power but him being naive and immature just drags him down actually making Fate Shirou better in terms of persona wise in my opinion.


Oh yeah, since you mentioned that
he does try not to use GARcher's arm because of that fact. Although it kind of makes you wonder how and why Shirou was able to have that arm with no problems at all. Not only that, but he was able to pick up the knowlegde that Archer had all this time, but instead of the way UBW did it with an epic fight, it was more like ad-hocked sugery though.
not without problems at all. eventually that arm will eat him away and make him explode like a human bomb. that's why martin's burial cloth is needed to slow down the process when the arm's not used. and yes, it was like transplanting an artificial limb (eg robotic arm) in order to enhance someone's fighting abilities.


Nerroth wrote:
And besides, what's to stop going after Zouken in the aftermath of UBW, anyway? Assuming they find out about Sakura and figure out a way to save her, that is. Plus, with the War over, he'd have a hard time trying to summon Hassan...
that's the point. they wouldn't realize anything because sakura will not show any "symptoms".
Last edited by Raitei on November 6th, 2008, 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence
User avatar
Raitei
OMG! WTF WHO SET THIS TITLE! LULZ
 
Posts: 2277
Joined: August 7th, 2007, 12:26 pm
Location: Distant wilderness

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 6th, 2008, 7:07 am

Raitei wrote:
Nerroth wrote:
And besides, what's to stop going after Zouken in the aftermath of UBW, anyway? Assuming they find out about Sakura and figure out a way to save her, that is. Plus, with the War over, he'd have a hard time trying to summon Hassan...
that's the point. they wouldn't realize because sakura will not show any "symptoms".


Well not only that,
but what would be the point to get involed now that the Grail War is over this time around. I mean he kind of had a reason if Skaura wanted to be a little bit more involved then the was she usually is thoughout the other two routes. Although speaking of Sakura I think she's kept a safe distance from Shirou since if she was close to him during the war then maybe anything from the HF storyline might actually take over the route, or at least add about a few more tiger Dojos into the whole mess. Hey it's a possiblity.
User avatar
Kid-Wolf
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
 
Posts: 1833
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 8:08 pm
Location: Inside the Depletion Garden

Unread postby Tsubasa » November 6th, 2008, 3:35 pm

Here's my break down.
Both HF and UBW Shiro learn from Archer.
However while UBW Shiro learns to use the reality marble sooner than HF Shiro he lacks the experience to effectively use it.
Not to mention while UBW shiro has access to it, you're fighting against someone that has the experience of the original user and creator of said technique. In other words, it's totally pointless.
Tack on the fact that the experience UBW Shiro gains fighting through the Holy Grail war is minor compared to gaining battle experience from a literally endless time span...
Pretty sure HF Shiro takes the cake.

And none of this "Oh but he'll die using the GARm" stuff too, because in a VS match you're main objective is to kill/defeat/horriblyrape/disable your opponent, dying comes after the match. :P

*Edit*
Oh and by the way, HF Shiro says he could locate the incantation for Unlimited Blade Works, but says he can't use it if I'm not mistaken because his words aren't the same.
OR at least thats what I think I read a couple hours ago when my brain was functioning.
Interpret it how you will, I think HF Unlimited blade works incantation is different because of his change in ideals.
Last edited by Tsubasa on November 6th, 2008, 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Tsubasa
Addict
 
Posts: 101
Joined: October 31st, 2008, 2:37 pm
Location: "Wtf? Where am I?"

Next

Return to Fate/stay night Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests