Shirou v. Shirou [SPOILERS]

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

Moderator: Staffers

Unread postby Undream » November 13th, 2008, 1:17 am

supremehyren wrote:About Hercules as Saber... I'm pretty sure that would be the best servant, hands down. He'd have all of his skills, Nine Lives(sword version, I suppose) and God Hand as well. Also, instead of just madly rushing at people, he'd have actual technique when fighting, and he's probably better than Saber in skill. On top of that, he wouldn't drain so much mana, so anyone could use him...

Archer's Noble Phantasm is UBW. It's the skill that defines him as a hero. Also, Broken Phantasms are only possible because of UBW, because he can afford to use NP's on them.

As for Archer as a different class, isn't Saber(Arturia) the only possible person summoned as Saber(class)? I remember her saying something in Fate along the lines of 'as long as there's a holy grail I can recieve, I will always be summoned to the place it appears, and so will eventually recieve it', thanks to her deal with the world? If not, Archer could also be summoned as Saber, Caster, or Lancer(he can make lances, right?).


Archer's stats wont allow him to be a saber, he doesnt know enought magic to be a caster, and... well i dont know if he could be a lancer... but i suppose its called unlimited BLADE works for something... though ULW doesnt sound so bad...
"...One must wait continuously, one must pursue endlessly.
They must realize that it was impossible to succeed yet
at the same time be capable of enduring patiently.
Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?..."
Last Episode
User avatar
Undream
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 197
Joined: March 21st, 2008, 6:07 am
Location: There

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » November 13th, 2008, 5:21 am

Hercules as a Sabre will not be the best. Stat-wise, Hercules got a huge boost from Mad Enhancement, without it, all his stats will drop a rank from what you read in the stat screen. This will put him, stat-wise, on equal ground with Gilgamesh, but inferior with respect to Sabre (under optimal condition, with Ilya, Rin, or anyone that is not Shirou). So, melee combat with no tricks, a Sabre class Hercules will not be crushing Sabre like in the Fate route. The optimal choice will probably be Archer, a hybrid one like our EMIYA. Nine Lives is originally a bow-related NP, so best leave it as is. If called for, then Hercules can melee. As much as I hate to say this, Gilgamesh has the making of the best servant. Erikidu, GoB, and Ea, the dude has it down. However, we all know this is gonna happen:

Herc: I challenge thee to a duel to the death.
Gil: N00bs4u(e, 3y3 1s k1n9 0f h3r0z, ph3@r m@ 3nvM@ 31i5h ----
Herc: *shoots Gil in the face a la Archer's Bakuya head-shot move*
Gil: *blargh*
Herc: Sorry dude, please speak Japanese and use shorter taunts.

@Tsubasa,
What I meant with the GoB and Ea comment was that, Gil didn't REALLY use them. He was flinging swords at Shirou a few at a time, and he NEVER successfully used Ea on Shirou in the VN. So Shirou beating Gil is a reflection of Gil's flawed personality, not his skills (he can wipe the town off the map if he so inclined to).
User avatar
Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Unread postby Undream » November 13th, 2008, 10:45 am

It would be fearsome to see what a totally serious gil could do...
"...One must wait continuously, one must pursue endlessly.
They must realize that it was impossible to succeed yet
at the same time be capable of enduring patiently.
Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?..."
Last Episode
User avatar
Undream
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 197
Joined: March 21st, 2008, 6:07 am
Location: There

Unread postby Xamdou » November 13th, 2008, 10:47 am

It wuld also be awesome to see what a serious Archer
(Shirou)
can do
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
User avatar
Xamdou
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 584
Joined: October 19th, 2008, 7:38 am
Location: The Ever Distant WC

Unread postby glitter » November 13th, 2008, 7:35 pm

Shiirn wrote:In UBW, all Shirou has is...UBW. And even then, he's only able to use it efficiently because of the mana Rin is throwing at him - it is mentioned that he wouldn't be able to activate UBW by himself without some backup. Once inside it, people are pretty much fucked - Unless maybe HF Shirou could take some of the weapons in UBW as his own and use them?


Well, i think they would be equal, because while HF shirou can only make three projections of high quality, ubw shirou is able to make quite a lot at the same time (countered Gil's rain of weapons, not all in time, but 18 is definitely quite a match). And in is reality marble, ubw shirou is able to "call" weapons to him (just like archer), but since it is not HF shirou reality marble, he is unable to use effectively the swords he can find in this place.
I think the two of them could kill each other, after it depends of the use of their abilities.
User avatar
glitter
Totally hardly posted
 
Posts: 9
Joined: May 20th, 2007, 10:31 am
Location: France

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » November 13th, 2008, 8:51 pm

It is interesting to see that people think UBW is the ultimate skill. This is simply not true. The reality marble itself is just a very, very, very inefficient version of GoB. The only advantage as the VN described is that it is faster than GoB in terms of "weapon accessing" speed, because the blades are "here". If the initial surprise factor does not do the opponent in, then Archer will probably be burned out pretty fast. The true value of UBW lies in its extension, projection magic. I guess one can say almost everything that can be achieved in UBW can be done without it (at a slightly slower speed). Heck, Archer even sword spammed outside of UBW, so I don't see a reason to frequently deploy UBW. However, I guess using a reality marble will have a strong psychological effect on the opponent, as it is a indicator of great power (faeries, daemons, bloodsuckers).
A Gil vs EMIYA match will certainly be very interesting. Based on commonly-agreed power level chart (lol), a seriously Gil should overwhelm EMIYA. However, a counter argument is that, Based on power level, EMIYA should die instantly against Berserker (after all, a fight between a demigod and a mere mortal, who is not even from the age of gods, is over before it started). EMIYA managed to beat up Berserker pretty bad before dying. I suspect it all comes down to when Gil will whip out Ea, and can he get the chance to fire it.
User avatar
Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Unread postby Rikh » November 13th, 2008, 10:11 pm

id say going off stat charts will give you really bad results
Fights follow the plotline more than the stats

They also show multiple situations that can lead one or another to victory. I think fiction fights should be based off ingame novel information alone, instead of the ingame stat chart
User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread postby nobaka » November 13th, 2008, 10:26 pm

Rikh wrote:id say going off stat charts will give you really bad results
Fights follow the plotline more than the stats

They also show multiple situations that can lead one or another to victory. I think fiction fights should be based off ingame novel information alone, instead of the ingame stat chart


True dat.

When all is said and done, only ONE skill matters. Plot Armor rank A.
User avatar
nobaka
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 581
Joined: January 11th, 2008, 6:12 am

Unread postby samasamon » November 13th, 2008, 10:57 pm

What will happen? if two (people) use RM at same time.

It look like the only one servant UBW Shirou can beat is Gil. He can't even match servant in melee fight. He can fight Archer because Archer lose most of his strength. Shirou try to fight Archer in one of dead end when he go to church without Lancer and got beat very fast. He beat Gil because Gil's carelessness. The serious Gil will kill Shirou in less than 1 second.

UBW isn't trump card, but last choice. For Archer (not Shirou) what he can do inside UBW, he can do it outside.
samasamon
Might just like this board
 
Posts: 30
Joined: November 5th, 2008, 2:57 pm

Unread postby Xamdou » November 14th, 2008, 12:00 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:It is interesting to see that people think UBW is the ultimate skill. This is simply not true. The reality marble itself is just a very, very, very inefficient version of GoB. The only advantage as the VN described is that it is faster than GoB in terms of "weapon accessing" speed, because the blades are "here". If the initial surprise factor does not do the opponent in, then Archer will probably be burned out pretty fast. The true value of UBW lies in its extension, projection magic. I guess one can say almost everything that can be achieved in UBW can be done without it (at a slightly slower speed). Heck, Archer even sword spammed outside of UBW, so I don't see a reason to frequently deploy UBW. However, I guess using a reality marble will have a strong psychological effect on the opponent, as it is a indicator of great power (faeries, daemons, bloodsuckers).
A Gil vs EMIYA match will certainly be very interesting. Based on commonly-agreed power level chart (lol), a seriously Gil should overwhelm EMIYA. However, a counter argument is that, Based on power level, EMIYA should die instantly against Berserker (after all, a fight between a demigod and a mere mortal, who is not even from the age of gods, is over before it started). EMIYA managed to beat up Berserker pretty bad before dying. I suspect it all comes down to when Gil will whip out Ea, and can he get the chance to fire it.
he killed berserker 7 times before dying in fate route
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
User avatar
Xamdou
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 584
Joined: October 19th, 2008, 7:38 am
Location: The Ever Distant WC

Unread postby Ryougi07 » November 14th, 2008, 1:03 am

This is kinda off - topic, I just want to ask,
When shirou got his body wrecked during HF, he got a new body right? Does that mean he can still gain power like UBW Shirou? Or is UBW impossible for him because he abandoned his ideal?
"You're better off without the scent of blood, I might just suddenly cut you up."
User avatar
Ryougi07
Addict
 
Posts: 66
Joined: October 2nd, 2008, 3:23 pm

Unread postby Mkilbride » November 14th, 2008, 1:33 am

Well Rin said it's possible with enough training, he MAY be able to use it, but who knows. His chant would be drastically different than any of the other ones.


"I am the bone of my sword,
I abandoned what I sought,
This is the damage that it brought,
So as I pray, Unlimited Blade Works!"

Wow...that's just...just bad as hell, I really have no creativity.
User avatar
Mkilbride
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 686
Joined: May 20th, 2007, 7:56 pm

Unread postby Undream » November 14th, 2008, 2:18 am

Mkilbride wrote:Well Rin said it's possible with enough training, he MAY be able to use it, but who knows. His chant would be drastically different than any of the other ones.


I am the bone of my sword,
Steel was my body, fire was my blood.
I once created over a thousand blades
To save an only person.
Forsaken the lives of many so that one could live,
yet I shall bear no repentance.
Recalling the tilted scales,
Her whole life was "Unlimited Blade Works"

Wow...that's just...just bad as hell, You really have no creativity.


Ok so i went a bit overboard xD
"...One must wait continuously, one must pursue endlessly.
They must realize that it was impossible to succeed yet
at the same time be capable of enduring patiently.
Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?..."
Last Episode
User avatar
Undream
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 197
Joined: March 21st, 2008, 6:07 am
Location: There

Unread postby Serpentarius » November 14th, 2008, 5:20 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:It is interesting to see that people think UBW is the ultimate skill. This is simply not true. The reality marble itself is just a very, very, very inefficient version of GoB. The only advantage as the VN described is that it is faster than GoB in terms of "weapon accessing" speed, because the blades are "here". If the initial surprise factor does not do the opponent in, then Archer will probably be burned out pretty fast. The true value of UBW lies in its extension, projection magic. I guess one can say almost everything that can be achieved in UBW can be done without it (at a slightly slower speed). Heck, Archer even sword spammed outside of UBW, so I don't see a reason to frequently deploy UBW. However, I guess using a reality marble will have a strong psychological effect on the opponent, as it is a indicator of great power (faeries, daemons, bloodsuckers).
A Gil vs EMIYA match will certainly be very interesting. Based on commonly-agreed power level chart (lol), a seriously Gil should overwhelm EMIYA. However, a counter argument is that, Based on power level, EMIYA should die instantly against Berserker (after all, a fight between a demigod and a mere mortal, who is not even from the age of gods, is over before it started). EMIYA managed to beat up Berserker pretty bad before dying. I suspect it all comes down to when Gil will whip out Ea, and can he get the chance to fire it.
Archer is stronger than UBW Shirou in ever way. He has all of Shirou's abilities, and he's better at them. If UBW Shirou can barely beat Gilgamesh, then Archer should be able to do it without even trying, as long as he has enough mana to use Unlimited Blade Works.
User avatar
Serpentarius
Might just like this board
 
Posts: 57
Joined: March 17th, 2008, 11:24 pm

Unread postby abscess » November 14th, 2008, 6:43 am

Serpentarius wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:It is interesting to see that people think UBW is the ultimate skill. This is simply not true. The reality marble itself is just a very, very, very inefficient version of GoB. The only advantage as the VN described is that it is faster than GoB in terms of "weapon accessing" speed, because the blades are "here". If the initial surprise factor does not do the opponent in, then Archer will probably be burned out pretty fast. The true value of UBW lies in its extension, projection magic. I guess one can say almost everything that can be achieved in UBW can be done without it (at a slightly slower speed). Heck, Archer even sword spammed outside of UBW, so I don't see a reason to frequently deploy UBW. However, I guess using a reality marble will have a strong psychological effect on the opponent, as it is a indicator of great power (faeries, daemons, bloodsuckers).
A Gil vs EMIYA match will certainly be very interesting. Based on commonly-agreed power level chart (lol), a seriously Gil should overwhelm EMIYA. However, a counter argument is that, Based on power level, EMIYA should die instantly against Berserker (after all, a fight between a demigod and a mere mortal, who is not even from the age of gods, is over before it started). EMIYA managed to beat up Berserker pretty bad before dying. I suspect it all comes down to when Gil will whip out Ea, and can he get the chance to fire it.
Archer is stronger than UBW Shirou in ever way. He has all of Shirou's abilities, and he's better at them. If UBW Shirou can barely beat Gilgamesh, then Archer should be able to do it without even trying, as long as he has enough mana to use Unlimited Blade Works.

Hmmm.... I thought everyone agreed that Shirou won because Gil wasn't really being serious. I think that if it was an ArcherVSGil match Gil would be at least a bit more serious since he is fighting with a servant, not a mere copy of a copycat. In other words, Archer could get screwed harder just because of his title of servant.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
User avatar
abscess
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
 
Posts: 1939
Joined: April 25th, 2008, 10:08 am
Location: Parmistan lol

Unread postby Inverted » November 14th, 2008, 8:09 am

Gilgamesh is a jackass .He'll just find another way to lose a match.
User avatar
Inverted
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 263
Joined: February 2nd, 2008, 7:25 pm

Unread postby samasamon » November 14th, 2008, 12:04 pm

No one can't match Gil if he can't activate Gil's carelessness.

Against Gil, the weaker you are the higher chance (to win) you have.
samasamon
Might just like this board
 
Posts: 30
Joined: November 5th, 2008, 2:57 pm

Unread postby Rikh » November 14th, 2008, 12:20 pm

samasamon wrote:What will happen? if two (people) use RM at same time.

It look like the only one servant UBW Shirou can beat is Gil. He can't even match servant in melee fight. He can fight Archer because Archer lose most of his strength. Shirou try to fight Archer in one of dead end when he go to church without Lancer and got beat very fast. He beat Gil because Gil's carelessness. The serious Gil will kill Shirou in less than 1 second.

UBW isn't trump card, but last choice. For Archer (not Shirou) what he can do inside UBW, he can do it outside.


more gil powerlevels...


Ok, Gil can kill anyone then
Thats why he was conveiniently owned by Saiba (whom shiro destroyed in HF when she was charged with infinite prana), Shiro whom owned him in UBW, Archer who sniped his head with a sword, and Sakura whom really just devoured the little guy in one shot (after being sword rained by the KoH)

Yup, Gil can uberly pwn when serious right? :)

I don't know about him, but if my life is on the line, i go serious
User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread postby Tsubasa » November 14th, 2008, 12:42 pm

Rikh...
You said it perfectly, bravo bravo.
It seems as though only those that contradict existence are allowed to call themselves heroes.
血潮は鉄で 心は硝子。
User avatar
Tsubasa
Addict
 
Posts: 101
Joined: October 31st, 2008, 2:37 pm
Location: "Wtf? Where am I?"

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 14th, 2008, 3:02 pm

With that being said it seems that Gil is really careless when it comes to vertain oopenets, but th eonly one he took rather seriously was Beserker in UBW, and I think he even showed no mercy to Lancer in Fate. That and showing no mercy to Caster in Fate as well.

In any case he kind of went with kid glose against Saber, since were the guy really wanted her all to himself, so you can't blame him. As for Shirou fighting him in UBW it's more along the line of Real (that doesn't know how to wield them properly) vs. Fake (the one who can wield them properly). As for Sakura in HF, Gil really made the mistake of underestamating her like that.
User avatar
Kid-Wolf
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
 
Posts: 1833
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 8:08 pm
Location: Inside the Depletion Garden

PreviousNext

Return to Fate/stay night Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests