Shirou v. Shirou [SPOILERS]

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Unread postby Xamdou » November 10th, 2008, 3:07 pm

KratosIrving wrote:I thought it was because the swords he could produce with UBW could be used like projectiles, just like the NP's in Gil's GoB.
In F/HA , Archer could snipe Shirou from a faraway place using his bow and arrow , which proves that his archery skill is also as good as an Archer servant too
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Unread postby KratosIrving » November 10th, 2008, 3:44 pm

It's well known that Shirou is excellent at archery, and therefore so is Archer. However, since his abilities don't focus on archery, it can't be the key component for making him a Servant. Firing the swords he Projects as projectiles (hmm, little pun there) fits, so therefore that's why he's Archer.
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » November 10th, 2008, 4:05 pm

The Archer class for Fate/stay night is just "the Heroic Spirit with the strongest arrows", meaning that the guy with the best NPs falls on this class regardless of stats. Thus, Archer, having the best NPs around (even if excalibur is the best on the 5th war, he can copy it regarldess of what happens after) got on the Archer class ignoring his low stats; and so it was with Gil, that had high enough stats for a Saber but got there as well. That, and the fact that he's not a sword user in the first place...
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Unread postby gmsephiroth » November 10th, 2008, 5:12 pm

Well, I'm not really too sure on the class selection process for the heroes of the Grail War, so I'll leave that topic alone. As for the previous topic, in terms of pure battle ability, I would have to say that HF Shirou > UBW Shirou.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » November 10th, 2008, 7:01 pm

Although not explicitly stated, each class has a "minimum requirement" that must be met (according to Rin, the cutoff line for Sabre is the highest). However, it is acceptable to surpass the requirement. As long as you have a NP that fits in the said class and you meet the minimum requirement, you are set. Archer has the NP to be Sabre (servant of the blade), but lacks the stats, so he got slided down to Archer. You know, now I think about it, Archer has Magic User as a characteristic in the stat screen. MAYBE he even failed the check for Caster due to low mana and medicore spells.
Both of the Archers we know are unorthodox. None of them used a bow NP, and all of their arrows are melee weapons, lol.
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Unread postby spathi » November 10th, 2008, 7:30 pm

Both Archers are also GAR in an absurd way
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Unread postby nobaka » November 10th, 2008, 8:11 pm

I realized that one of the main reasons that I don't like HF Shirou that much is because he killed/let Saber die.

That and I find HF's theme (fight for the one you love regardless of fucking everyone else over) unmoving.
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Unread postby Rikh » November 10th, 2008, 9:13 pm

nobaka wrote:I realized that one of the main reasons that I don't like HF Shirou that much is because he killed/let Saber die.

That and I find HF's theme (fight for the one you love regardless of fucking everyone else over) unmoving.


Saiba Fan protest obviously ;)

I still liked Rin in this route, she was 1337$4UC3
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Unread postby Tsubasa » November 11th, 2008, 12:45 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Although not explicitly stated, each class has a "minimum requirement" that must be met (according to Rin, the cutoff line for Sabre is the highest). However, it is acceptable to surpass the requirement. As long as you have a NP that fits in the said class and you meet the minimum requirement, you are set. Archer has the NP to be Sabre (servant of the blade), but lacks the stats, so he got slided down to Archer. You know, now I think about it, Archer has Magic User as a characteristic in the stat screen. MAYBE he even failed the check for Caster due to low mana and medicore spells.
Both of the Archers we know are unorthodox. None of them used a bow NP, and all of their arrows are melee weapons, lol.

Broken Phantasm is a bow NP.
PS. Gil did use GoB in the UBW route against Shirou.
It seems as though only those that contradict existence are allowed to call themselves heroes.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 11th, 2008, 1:50 pm

I guess there is another factor that is needed to become an Archer and since bot of the met the level of GARness that's how they were able to enter this status. Although it's very rare for two Saber Classes to fight in the Grail War. Although that did happen in the 3rd Grail War tough. At least that's what Hollow Ataraxia mentions bout that one. In any case Shirou was in the Archery club for a while and knows how to fight as an archer. So with that being said he has the natural trait at being in the Archer Class even if he uses blades for that matter.

In any case in the aftermath of HF
doesn't Shirou lose his GARm or what?
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Unread postby Shiirn » November 11th, 2008, 5:02 pm

Shirou's body dies in HF.

He is given a replacement body from Blue... but not directly, it was just one of her left-over experiments. Ilya transfers Shirou's soul to a container to be moved into another container (the puppet).

Rin says he's still just as human as the rest of us, but his magic circuit weakened a bit.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 11th, 2008, 5:20 pm

Uh don't you mean Ms. Blue's older sister Tohko? Also, that kind of gives rise to the Battle Moon Wars version of Shirou if you ask me. Wich in the end tends to become the positive atributes for each route he was in... more or less.

Also, with that in mind isn't he also kind of like Sakura's familar as well, since he tends to take care of her at times.
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » November 11th, 2008, 5:27 pm

Kid-Wolf wrote:Uh don't you mean Ms. Blue's older sister Tohko? Also, that kind of gives rise to the Battle Moon Wars version of Shirou if you ask me. Wich in the end tends to become the positive atributes for each route he was in... more or less.

Also, with that in mind isn't he also kind of like Sakura's familar as well, since he tends to take care of her at times.


...

Shirou isn't Sakura's familiar. He is sakura's bitch..
...
..
.
Excuse my bad lenguage. But that is true, isn't it?
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 11th, 2008, 5:30 pm

And what's wrong with having to be with such a horny girl like her now? Well... as long as he doesn't do anything rediculously idiotic, wich I think may be doubtful, he won't be horably taken down by her. Never the less
it seems that both Tohsaka sisters can be a dangerous bunch no matter which way you look at it.
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Unread postby Gunbladeuser » November 11th, 2008, 6:05 pm

zweiterversuch wrote:Shirou isn't Sakura's familiar. He is sakura's bitch..
...
..
.
Excuse my bad lenguage. But that is true, isn't it?

Umm... no?
I'm always wondering why some people think that. They are lovers in the first place!
Okay, there are certain "difficult circumstances", but these still don't change that fact.
Therefore, it is not strange in any way that they're having sex, or would you consider either partner in a relationship as a "bitch" just because the couple's having sex very often?
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » November 12th, 2008, 5:39 pm

Tsubasa wrote:Broken Phantasm is a bow NP.

The way that Archer used Broken Phantasms may make it seem that way, but it is not true. The term Broken Phantasm just means that you are overloading whatever NP at hand with mana and use it as a bomb. For example, Lancer may turn Gae Bolg into a Broken Phantasm and hurl it at the enemy for some serious damage. However, I doubt Lancer would ever do that since it is essentially disarming yourself. Probably only Archer/Shirou and Gilgamesh can afford to use Broken Phantasm. Also, I think the way Nasu defines Noble Phantasm is confusing. Let's again use Lancer as an example. The lance he is holding is a weapon(also called NP in the story, this is why it is confusing), the actual Noble Phantasms are Spear of Impaling Barbed Death and Spear of Striking Death Flight. As you can see, Broken Phantasm is not really a Noble Phantasm, it is more like a skill that everyone can use.

Tsubasa wrote:PS. Gil did use GoB in the UBW route against Shirou.

This is true, but I never stated it otherwise.
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Unread postby Tsubasa » November 12th, 2008, 11:17 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
He fought Gilgamesh, who did not really use GoB or Ea.

:D
I just had to bring it up since it really did measure how strong Shirou is, at least in the UBW route.
It seems as though only those that contradict existence are allowed to call themselves heroes.
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Unread postby Undream » November 12th, 2008, 11:55 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
Tsubasa wrote:Broken Phantasm is a bow NP.

The way that Archer used Broken Phantasms may make it seem that way, but it is not true. The term Broken Phantasm just means that you are overloading whatever NP at hand with mana and use it as a bomb. For example, Lancer may turn Gae Bolg into a Broken Phantasm and hurl it at the enemy for some serious damage. However, I doubt Lancer would ever do that since it is essentially disarming yourself. Probably only Archer/Shirou and Gilgamesh can afford to use Broken Phantasm. Also, I think the way Nasu defines Noble Phantasm is confusing. Let's again use Lancer as an example. The lance he is holding is a weapon(also called NP in the story, this is why it is confusing), the actual Noble Phantasms are Spear of Impaling Barbed Death and Spear of Striking Death Flight. As you can see, Broken Phantasm is not really a Noble Phantasm, it is more like a skill that everyone can use.

Tsubasa wrote:PS. Gil did use GoB in the UBW route against Shirou.

This is true, but I never stated it otherwise.


Basically the Noble Phantasm is the special skill of the Heroic spirit, which may be contained in the weapon, or in the hero itself.
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Unread postby supremehyren » November 13th, 2008, 12:28 am

About Hercules as Saber... I'm pretty sure that would be the best servant, hands down. He'd have all of his skills, Nine Lives(sword version, I suppose) and God Hand as well. Also, instead of just madly rushing at people, he'd have actual technique when fighting, and he's probably better than Saber in skill. On top of that, he wouldn't drain so much mana, so anyone could use him...

Archer's Noble Phantasm is UBW. It's the skill that defines him as a hero. Also, Broken Phantasms are only possible because of UBW, because he can afford to use NP's on them.

As for Archer as a different class, isn't Saber(Arturia) the only possible person summoned as Saber(class)? I remember her saying something in Fate along the lines of 'as long as there's a holy grail I can recieve, I will always be summoned to the place it appears, and so will eventually recieve it', thanks to her deal with the world? If not, Archer could also be summoned as Saber, Caster, or Lancer(he can make lances, right?).
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Unread postby Xamdou » November 13th, 2008, 1:10 am

wow , everyone is not using spoiler tag
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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