Shirou v. Shirou [SPOILERS]

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Unread postby AlextheLazy » November 6th, 2008, 3:36 pm

Rikh wrote:
nobaka wrote:
Kcuf wrote:HF Shirou got more variety of skills he can use, here are the examples: "Nine lives Blade Works", "4-layer Rho Aius", "Caladbolg II", and "Kansho/Bakuya 3-pair combo", plus all the weapons UBW Shirou can use. Also he got a reinforced body and almost a servants speed. I would say that HF Shirou wins, heck, he got access to UBW after 2 years.

Excuse my English...


The only thing that he made on his own is Nine Lives Blade Works. His body didn't get reinforced at all. It was just as weak as it had been (with regular physical training). Speed, battle experience, and all other weapons/techniques come from GARm.

Edit: Negum: Yes. UBW Shirou BEATS Gilgamesh.


eh he didnt do that on his own
HF shiro doesn't even know he is capable of tracing swords on his own until very late in the game, and then he only does so after inheriting knowledge from archer

And for nine lives, that was pretty much all his arms work. He had boosted stamina, and servant like speed by that point (example: him and kotomine running at like 50mph from berserker.... Also jumping from an equivalent nine story building and surviving...)

He did manage to copy berserkers sword once, but it was instantly shattered. for the second round, he used archers arm. Unable to use Unlimited Blade Works, he created Nine Live Blade Works based off of the NP of Hercules's sword
At least that's what i interpreted


That sword is not a Noble Phantasm it's just a rock and Hercules(if summoned as something other then Berserker) can embedded the power of Nine Lives into his weapon iirc Nine Lives is his Bow not a sword
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Unread postby Raitei » November 6th, 2008, 4:31 pm

AlextheLazy wrote:That sword is not a Noble Phantasm it's just a rock and Hercules(if summoned as something other then Berserker) can embedded the power of Nine Lives into his weapon iirc Nine Lives is his Bow not a sword
right you are. the sword is but just a rock. nine lives is originally the bow of hydra (not hydra's bow), which hercules later ports on his sword as a skill.
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Unread postby AlextheLazy » November 6th, 2008, 7:24 pm

Raitei wrote:
AlextheLazy wrote:That sword is not a Noble Phantasm it's just a rock and Hercules(if summoned as something other then Berserker) can embedded the power of Nine Lives into his weapon iirc Nine Lives is his Bow not a sword
right you are. the sword is but just a rock. nine lives is originally the bow of hydra (not hydra's bow), which hercules later ports on his sword as a skill.


most likely if he was summoned as a lancer he would apply it's power to a javelin after all he was very skilled with them
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Unread postby Rikh » November 6th, 2008, 9:37 pm

AlextheLazy wrote:
Raitei wrote:
AlextheLazy wrote:That sword is not a Noble Phantasm it's just a rock and Hercules(if summoned as something other then Berserker) can embedded the power of Nine Lives into his weapon iirc Nine Lives is his Bow not a sword
right you are. the sword is but just a rock. nine lives is originally the bow of hydra (not hydra's bow), which hercules later ports on his sword as a skill.


most likely if he was summoned as a lancer he would apply it's power to a javelin after all he was very skilled with them


it would basically be as destructive as Gae Bolg then....

although i admit, my bad, Shiro copied hercules's innate NP, and ported it to his own attack NLBW....

Hercules as saber class would be down right near indestructable imho.... King of the britains might have a gleaming sword, but Hercules has the strength to overpower almost any berserk class without his own berserk buff
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Unread postby Shiirn » November 7th, 2008, 2:20 am

Remember that Mad Enhancement also increases all stats by 1 rank - that is, all stats are lowered 1 rank when he's in any other class
(This is evidenced by the fact that his NP is ranked A in the status screen, despite it being an obvious B in the NP screen.)
Giving him A STR and B everything else (C luck). This is still as high as a Rin Saber, but not as omfgwtfpwn as people may believe. Nine Lives being unlocked would be awesome, but it's essentially a Tsubame Gaeshi with more hits that costs mana.


Shirou is physically weak compared to other people in the game. Even Rin has shown herself to be physically stronger when she Strengthens herself. Even the GARm only enhanced his stats to where he was barely able to keep up with Kotomine (Kotomine was carrying Ilya, remember, and they were about the same speed). He also cannot use UBW, because, IMO, his beliefs changed so much that Archer's incantation could no longer apply to him - He needed to find a new incantation, which Rin implied later.

In UBW, all Shirou has is...UBW. And even then, he's only able to use it efficiently because of the mana Rin is throwing at him - it is mentioned that he wouldn't be able to activate UBW by himself without some backup. Once inside it, people are pretty much fucked - Unless maybe HF Shirou could take some of the weapons in UBW as his own and use them?

If it came down to a GARm HF Shirou (Before activating GARm) VS UBW Shirou (With Rin backup) [Essentially when both are at full strength], HF Shirou has the highest chance of winning - simply because his immediate output of attacks is much higher then UBW Shirou, who must cast his trump card and, by all likelyhood, would find himself decapitated before he could pull it off, since the GARm Shirou can move much faster then UBW Shirou.

Even if UBW Shirou can get UBW on the field, he faces the problem of countering NLBW. Also, as I mentioned before, HF Shirou could, in all likelyhood, pick up the weapons in UBW and use them himself, essentially skipping the GARm's killer effects. They're the same person, after all.



Oh well. Assassin can still beat any character in F/SN in a 1v1 sword fight, no NPs. (A+ Agility + A Mind's Eye + A Luck = freaking hard to hit, as well as being able to spam Tsubame Gaeshi, on top of it literally being said 'his swordplay reached a level beyond what humans can attain'). For a fake servant, he sure is powerful, if very physically weak.


tl;dr
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Unread postby that one guy » November 7th, 2008, 3:10 am

The thing with UBW was that he couldn't use the same UBW that Archer used. They had two different worlds. However, he can still activate his own, he just needs to find out how. So long as he can still use projection/strengthening/whatever, he has access to UBW. That is the only magic given to Emiya Shirou.
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Unread postby fakeremiya » November 7th, 2008, 4:45 am

It was also mentioned in the ending that given the training, overtime Shirou will be able to activate his Reality Marble.
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Unread postby Tsubasa » November 7th, 2008, 4:50 am

Shiirn wrote:Shirou is physically weak compared to other people in the game. Even Rin has shown herself to be physically stronger when she Strengthens herself. Even the GARm only enhanced his stats to where he was barely able to keep up with Kotomine (Kotomine was carrying Ilya, remember, and they were about the same speed). He also cannot use UBW, because, IMO, his beliefs changed so much that Archer's incantation could no longer apply to him - He needed to find a new incantation, which Rin implied later.

In UBW, all Shirou has is...UBW. And even then, he's only able to use it efficiently because of the mana Rin is throwing at him - it is mentioned that he wouldn't be able to activate UBW by himself without some backup. Once inside it, people are pretty much fucked - Unless maybe HF Shirou could take some of the weapons in UBW as his own and use them?

If it came down to a GARm HF Shirou (Before activating GARm) VS UBW Shirou (With Rin backup) [Essentially when both are at full strength], HF Shirou has the highest chance of winning - simply because his immediate output of attacks is much higher then UBW Shirou, who must cast his trump card and, by all likelyhood, would find himself decapitated before he could pull it off, since the GARm Shirou can move much faster then UBW Shirou.

Even if UBW Shirou can get UBW on the field, he faces the problem of countering NLBW. Also, as I mentioned before, HF Shirou could, in all likelyhood, pick up the weapons in UBW and use them himself, essentially skipping the GARm's killer effects. They're the same person, after all.

I mentioned some of this in my post on the first page but yeah HF Shiro cannot use Archer's Incantation because he ends up with a different ideal(imo). But at the same time in a UBW Shiro vs HF Shiro, UBW is worthless against either one since UBW Shiro can use the technique that he merely copied off Archer, while HF Shiro has access to the knowledge of the original creator. It more or less cancels the advantage and technique out.
That aside everything comes down to battle experience.
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Unread postby Serpentarius » November 7th, 2008, 5:22 am

that one guy wrote:The thing with UBW was that he couldn't use the same UBW that Archer used. They had two different worlds. However, he can still activate his own, he just needs to find out how. So long as he can still use projection/strengthening/whatever, he has access to UBW. That is the only magic given to Emiya Shirou.
Well, to be precise, the only magic given to him is putting shape to his mind - HF's Shirou may have a completely different Reality Marble than UBW's Shirou. The field of unlimited blades might represent the constant struggle to approach the ideal of being a superhero that saves everyone, but what would represent Shirou's unconditional love of Sakura? I think it'd be pretty cool to see what shape his Reality Marble takes after the Heaven's Feel route.

Oh, who am I kidding? It's probably just a limitless field of mollusks.
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Unread postby AlextheLazy » November 7th, 2008, 7:10 am

Shiirn wrote:Remember that Mad Enhancement also increases all stats by 1 rank - that is, all stats are lowered 1 rank when he's in any other class
(This is evidenced by the fact that his NP is ranked A in the status screen, despite it being an obvious B in the NP screen.)
Giving him A STR and B everything else (C luck). This is still as high as a Rin Saber, but not as omfgwtfpwn as people may believe. Nine Lives being unlocked would be awesome, but it's essentially a Tsubame Gaeshi with more hits that costs mana.


Mad Enhancement was not active 24/7 as proven in Fate and and the rank A NP might just be Nine Lives after all he has it he just can't use it.

Shiirn wrote:Oh well. Assassin can still beat any character in F/SN in a 1v1 sword fight, no NPs. (A+ Agility + A Mind's Eye + A Luck = freaking hard to hit, as well as being able to spam Tsubame Gaeshi, on top of it literally being said 'his swordplay reached a level beyond what humans can attain'). For a fake servant, he sure is powerful, if very physically weak.


True he might even be able to completely evade Gae Bolg and that says something
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Unread postby Tsubasa » November 7th, 2008, 10:14 am

I know what HF Shirou's UBW would be, it'd really be Unlimited Imouto Works!
It'd be a field of Sakura and Ilya that would cripple even the Lowliest Otaku!

+1 HF Shirou.
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Unread postby Raitei » November 7th, 2008, 10:16 am

Tsubasa wrote:I know what HF Shirou's UBW would be, it'd really be Unlimited Imouto Works!
It'd be a field of Sakura and Ilya that would cripple even the Lowliest Otaku!

+1 HF Shirou.
you know what?
saber is also an imouto. and before you start jumping on me, yeah, I know what imouto means.
and unlimited saber world is enough to blow even the wickedest of otaku. :P
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Unread postby Tsubasa » November 7th, 2008, 10:39 am

Yeah I think we can say HF Shirou wins this match
*Gets up* Bout time to be hitting the old dusty trail~
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Unread postby Veldril » November 7th, 2008, 11:23 am

Fate's Shirou = Combat Knife (Azoth) with super barrier (Avalon)
UBW's Shirou = Handgun with combat shield (Rho Aius)
HF's Shirou = High-explosive grenade with combat shield (Rho Aius)

So I would say HF Shirou would win against UBW Shirou since UBW Shirou lack skill and experience that can match with HF's Shirou. However, HF's Shirou have a chance to loss against Fate's Shirou if the Fate's Shirou go in a totally defense mode using Avalon continuously (if he can keep up with speed of HF's Shirou) or before the fight since HF's Shirou's attacks would be completely nullified. But I would say a chance that HF's Shirou is quite slim.

Personality wise, I like UBW's Shirou as much as HF's Shirou. They are good in the each of their way. Their mind are strong, not yielding even they're shown that what they wish is (or seems) impossible to reach.
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Unread postby Xamdou » November 10th, 2008, 1:10 am

Fate Hollow Ataraxia's Shirou is so much better then any route of Shirou as
he can project Archer's greatest defence without Archer's arm ( even though he is Avenger and no one really know if he is the real Shirou or not).And also he projected a soccer ball when Saber broke one :wink:
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To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 10th, 2008, 3:06 am

IT goes to show you that F/HA Shirou rules them all since
he's a combination of the positive traits of all tree routes I'm guessing.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » November 10th, 2008, 4:47 am

It is really hard to gauge power level, as Shirou never fought a servant in a free-for-all open battle.
He fought Black Berserker who was blind and halted by Ilya.
He fought Black Sabre who used no NP due to fear of blowing up the cave.
He fought Rider who used no NP.
He fought Gilgamesh, who did not really use GoB or Ea.
His fight with Archer is really just symbolic...
O, and he fought Lancer and died.

In my opinion, the battle that best demonstrated Shirou's ability was his battle versus Black Sabre. An all-out battle of pure technique, and Shirou won (sort of, well Sabre admitted defeat). HF Shirou should theoretically be able to dispatch the Shirou's in other paths before NP can be invoked.
On a side note, this should also suggest that Archer may very well defeat Sabre in pure melee... O EMIYA, if only your status does not suck so bad, a Sabre you would have been.
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Unread postby KratosIrving » November 10th, 2008, 5:06 am

I don't think it was ever possible for EMIYA to be Saber. Sure, UBW allows him to make infinite swords, but he's Archer, and only Archer for the same reason Gil is also classified as Archer.
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Unread postby Undream » November 10th, 2008, 5:16 am

I though he was clasified as an Archer because he actually practiced archery while he was alive, mastering the... what was the skill again?
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They must realize that it was impossible to succeed yet
at the same time be capable of enduring patiently.
Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?..."
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Unread postby KratosIrving » November 10th, 2008, 3:04 pm

I thought it was because the swords he could produce with UBW could be used like projectiles, just like the NP's in Gil's GoB.
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