Lancer *spoiler*

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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Unread postby zweiterversuch » November 5th, 2008, 12:40 am

Shikiller wrote:Yes, Ulster, thank you, i didn't remember the province.

The wielder of Kaladbolg has to be born in Ulster.



But Archer can do it, right?

....right?
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Unread postby Nerroth » November 5th, 2008, 1:15 am

As a 'normal' weapon, anyone can use it - but the geis part is restricted.


(Kinda like the opposite of Caliburn - it can be Traced, but only Arturia can fully activate it.)
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Unread postby Raitei » November 5th, 2008, 4:31 am

Nerroth wrote:(Kinda like the opposite of Caliburn - it can be Traced, but only Arturia can fully activate it.)
wrong.
Caliburn Status Screen wrote:Since it's a symbol of power (read=authority) a sword carried by a king usually ends up being degraded to the status of an ornament covered by decorations.

That is the biggest difference between Caliburn and Excalibur.
no one said it's only usable by the king, mind you. the difference is just one being fancy while the other being powerful. it's as simple as that. I wonder why fans tend to interpret caliburn as "usable-king only" while the status screen gives no clear evidence on that. the biggest difference is ornament vs weapon. end of story.
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Unread postby Divine » November 5th, 2008, 5:35 am

Cause the day after Rin says so.

Well, a battle between servants is a battle of noble phantasms.

In that regard, EA and Gae Bolg are equal since neither party can block the other. Presumably. It is never stated if the 17 runes Lancer possesses could stand up against EA. I doubt it, however, it is possible that the combined protection may be able to keep Lancer alive. On the other hand, Goldie would have to rely on luck to avoid Gae Bolg.

In an open setting, I doubt that lancer would have much trouble dodging stuff shot out of the Gate of Babylon. He might not be able to do anything but retreat and regroup but I don't think it would result in a loss.

Enkidu would seal the deal against Lancer. However, Goldie likes to play with his prey. Even though he is perfectly capable of winning every battle he lost, he chose the path that would test his opponent the most and cause the most pain. Even against Berserker, he didn't use it until well into the battle. Against Lancer who has an instant win NP, his personality might play against him.
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Unread postby Maes » November 5th, 2008, 9:41 am

In theory, if Archer were far enough away from Lancer when he fired something, say Kaladbolg II, he could possibly kill Lancer with it. His protection against projectiles doesn't cover extreme distance attacks like what Archer used on Berserker in UBW.
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Unread postby Nerroth » November 5th, 2008, 2:40 pm

Raitei wrote:
Nerroth wrote:(Kinda like the opposite of Caliburn - it can be Traced, but only Arturia can fully activate it.)
wrong.


Sure - which is why Shirou was able to finish off all of Berserker's remaining lives by using Caliburn himself.


Oh wait, no he didn't.


Saber did.


Its full power can only be activated by her!


(That he was able to cut off Berserker's arm was enough to show that Caliburn can be used as a 'normal' NP, and is still a powerful weapon - but not at the same level that Saber can use it.)
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Unread postby Raitei » November 5th, 2008, 3:08 pm

Nerroth wrote:
Raitei wrote:
Nerroth wrote:(Kinda like the opposite of Caliburn - it can be Traced, but only Arturia can fully activate it.)
wrong.


Sure - which is why Shirou was able to finish off all of Berserker's remaining lives by using Caliburn himself.


Oh wait, no he didn't.


Saber did.


Its full power can only be activated by her!
wrong again. THAT shirou cannot activate it; his body was almost torn apart because of the tracing. apparently, he cannot handle the holy sword by himself, just like he busted his own ass when he used excalibur. saber simply handled the sword with him, nothing else. and status screen definitely proves that it is NOT only usable by a king. end of story. the biggest difference between caliburn and excalibur IS THAT PARTICULAR POINT; one being fancy, and one being powerful. it's as simple as that.
Last edited by Raitei on November 5th, 2008, 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby samasamon » November 5th, 2008, 3:13 pm

It's impossible for Shirou in that stat can activate it, but who know archer can't. The game itself don't say it.

I think archer don't use Kaladbolg II againt Lancer because he don't want to kill and be killed.
Archer say to caster he don't want meaningless killing. His main purpose is lure caster and find chance to kill her.
We won't know how much info archer have about Gae Bolg, but if archer choose to attack instead of defend. He can use range B++, A+or A++ NP again Gae Bolg, but he will die because Gae Bolg will hit him for sure (Archer have rank E luck). The result will end as both of them die.
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Unread postby Rikh » November 5th, 2008, 9:35 pm

Gae bolg can be blocked by massive luck, which results in a partial avoidance
and it can also be blocked by something with a higher defensive concept than Gae Bolg itself
That's why Rho Aias has the ability to stop Gae Bolgs strongest attack, its concept is greater than Gae Bolg itself (however it pretty much kills archer during use)

Shiro and Archer can also activate Excalibur. Its stated in UBW and HF
UBW Spoilers
Archer threatens to use Excalibur on saber. Although Archers H4xcalibur will be weaker to Saibaz, it will annihilate anything around them if they both hit

HF Spoilers
Shiro projects Excalibur (or Darkh4xcalibur???) to destroy the grail. However Illya stops him before he does so, but it still proves he has the ability to use it to its extent


I don't know about Caliburn, but Excalibur is usable by anybody that has a high enough prana supply, along with its name being evoked... Or at least by Shiro, Archer, and Saber

(Zelretch however pwnz Excalibur tho... nuff said)
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Unread postby AlinSabel » November 5th, 2008, 9:56 pm

Caliburn's the sword in the stone, and the only person capable of pulling it out is the rightful King of England.

So... technically, the only person who should be wielding Caliburn is... the King of England.

There is no mention as to any requirement to activate it... but one could take the whole 'only retrievable from XYZ by the King' to mean 'only usable by the King'.
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Unread postby Nerroth » November 5th, 2008, 10:01 pm

More King of the sub-Roman Britons - there was no 'England' in Arturia's day (since the Angles and Saxons hadn't begun their larger efforts at colonisation yet) - but that's a fair point, too.

Especially if Merlin planned the whole thing to legitimise her ascendancy from the outset...
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Unread postby Raitei » November 6th, 2008, 1:16 am

AlinSabel wrote:Caliburn's the sword in the stone, and the only person capable of pulling it out is the rightful King of England.

So... technically, the only person who should be wielding Caliburn is... the King of England.

There is no mention as to any requirement to activate it... but one could take the whole 'only retrievable from XYZ by the King' to mean 'only usable by the King'.
then what's the difference with other noble phantasms? one can try swinging gae bolg or excalibur over and over but still, the ones capable of releasing their power are lancer and saber, respectively. however, we know there's a red hairdo capable of recreating the weapon AND activating them.

again,
fuyuki wiki wrote:Because swords are symbols of authority, the swords of kings are often lowered to the role of being fancy decorations. The biggest difference between Excalibur and Caliburn is that particular point. The cost of being a dazzling sword is that weapon's grade is inferior to Excalibur. By the legends, it was broken in a battle in which the rules of chivalry had been broken by Arthur.
Don't make me repeat myself over and over again please.
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Shikiller » November 6th, 2008, 1:44 am

That entry says the biggest difference, meaning there are other differences, and that entry talks about their differences as weapons, not NP.
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Unread postby Raitei » November 6th, 2008, 1:49 am

Shikiller wrote:That entry says the biggest difference, meaning there are other differences, and that entry talks about their differences as weapons, not NP.
so? what's of bigger importance, decorations or its requirement? if there's no bigger difference than the appearance and power, then there's nothing MORE IMPORTANT TO NOTE than it.

and that line is referring to both excalibur and caliburn IN GENERAL. it didn't refer specifically to their powerlevels or whatsoever. you can continue all your baseless assumption, I don't care. the status screen clearly says nothing about caliburn only usable by a king. in fact, it implies that it is NOT. end of story.
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Unread postby KratosIrving » November 6th, 2008, 2:07 am

I believe there's certainly at least one example of Caliburn being used by someone other than a King. Shirou in Fate when he tries to defend Saber from Gilgamesh the first time, they trade blows for a little bit before Gil pulls out the real version of the sword and proceeds to own him.
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Unread postby Shikiller » November 6th, 2008, 2:10 am

Ok, we will continue our assumptions, it's not like yours are better.

Caliburn can only be activated by the King of the britons , a good proof is Shirou vs Berserker, Saber activated it, and when Shirou traced it again against Gil, he didn't use any special skill.
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Unread postby Raitei » November 6th, 2008, 2:59 am

Ok, we will continue our assumptions, it's not like yours are better.

Caliburn can only be activated by the King of the britons , a good proof is Shirou vs Berserker, Saber activated it, and when Shirou traced it again against Gil, he didn't use any special skill.
and a good proof that there's no such thing is the status screen. nuff said.
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Unread postby Shikiller » November 6th, 2008, 3:26 am

What are you doing here? you said you don't care. The weapons screen doesn't prove you right either, it's just your assumption, so don't force them as a fact.
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Unread postby AlextheLazy » November 6th, 2008, 7:19 pm

can the two of you agree that the other could be right!


If Lancer was summoned in Ireland the only thing nerfing him would be the command spell and he would have able to defeat Gil(Ko-gil on the other hand would go all out from the start)

the only one I don't think Enkidu would not work is Rider
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Unread postby Rikh » November 6th, 2008, 9:40 pm

Enkidu also failed to work on Hercules, its strength is based off the opposing persons divinity, and Herc is pretty high up there

Im pretty sure lancer is able to escape Enkidu before it hits him, and even if it does, i am also sure a command spell to teleh4x him can work to get him out of the way
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