Heaven's Feel Discussion [Spoilers!]

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Unread postby abscess » November 29th, 2008, 5:49 pm

@Kansho
It's about the blackened servants. If the copy that is participating in the war is "corrupted to the core" but the main body stays the same, since it didn't enter into contact with the shadow, what happened o Saber? Since her actual soul is the one going from war to war, after being consumed by the shadow, would Saber's soul be screwed up now?
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby Euphemism » November 29th, 2008, 9:39 pm

Rikh wrote: time period where he and saber were killing off servants one by one every night
besides...
where he was gonna knife sakura in her room, he could have just traced rule breaker for that... its a good knife =P
Although a scene with rider might have ruined that



Main problem with that, besides the one you mentioned, is:
The piece of the grail that's lodged within her that is also Zouken, which doesn't get removed until Day 16.
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Unread postby Kansho » November 30th, 2008, 12:47 am

Rikh wrote:
where he was gonna knife sakura in her room, he could have just traced rule breaker for that... its a good knife =P
Although a scene with rider might have ruined that
You readed what I said? Rule Breaker didn't works if you use into Sakura's body. You have to stab the "Servant" AKA: The Shadow, to nullify the contract. When Shirou used Rule Breaker, the shadow was enveloped around her.

abscess wrote:@Kansho
It's about the blackened servants. If the copy that is participating in the war is "corrupted to the core" but the main body stays the same, since it didn't enter into contact with the shadow, what happened o Saber? Since her actual soul is the one going from war to war, after being consumed by the shadow, would Saber's soul be screwed up now?
Neh, probably nothing and she remains unaffected. She is still "frozen in time" anyways. She will probably see this as a nightmare, instead as a dream.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.
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Unread postby AlinSabel » November 30th, 2008, 1:08 am

Why does the Servant have to stabbed? The contract is on both of them (evidenced by the Command Spell), and doesn't Shirou get his contract broken on his side by Caster in one of the DEAD ENDs in UBW?
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 30th, 2008, 5:08 am

AlinSabel wrote:Why does the Servant have to stabbed? The contract is on both of them (evidenced by the Command Spell), and doesn't Shirou get his contract broken on his side by Caster in one of the DEAD ENDs in UBW?


Yes, and Caster also does it the other way by stabbing Saber to break her contract with Shirou as well. In the end it shows that Cater could stab either the Master or the Servant. With that in mind it depends on who is in front of Caster at the time the Master or the Servant. As for Shirou with Sakura, since she was somewhat absorbed by Avenger at the times it could of gone either way there as well, but it was more convient for Shirou to stab Sakura with the Rule Breaker since she was the so called Master of Avenger.

The only thing that is bugging me is that she used up her Command Spells for Rider, but she still remained even after the 3rd Command Spell though.
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Unread postby AlinSabel » November 30th, 2008, 5:20 am

AND she was still getting mana from Sakura. D:
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 30th, 2008, 5:26 am

Yeah that felt like the biggest plothole right there so far. I thought there was something going on to where Rider kind of made Shirou her Master or something like that, while no one was looking.
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Unread postby BlackTornado » November 30th, 2008, 6:47 am

I thought that command spells are just there for controlling the servants, using all of them do not break the contract. Ofc it is not advised to use all of them as the servants can easily disobey or even kill their master if they used all the command spells. So everyone keeps at least 1. But that does not mean that using all breaks the contract.

If the contract is broken however, then the master loses his/her command spell. So it works only 1 way
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Unread postby abscess » November 30th, 2008, 7:11 am

If my brain happens to be working correctly right now, thee command spells are the marks that say who is a master. After a master loses them (i.e. use them up, severed arm, severd magical nerves or whatever it is that Kotomine does...) that master is no longer a master and just goes back to be a common magus/magic user/dude who is capable of being a master.

And yeah, big plot hole is big. It surprises me that it wasn't mentioned earlier. Also, what AlinSabel says is true, I don't see why the RuleBreaker has to be used on the servant exclusivly. Unless the shadow is somehow considered the real master of Dark Saber and GARserker and using it directly in Sakura wouldn't really matter much, but that wouldn't prevent Shirou from using Rule Breaker against Dark Saber, supposing that he manages to catch up with her with his puny human body and not end up with a fried brain in the process.... dunno if Im'm making sense... I'm out, I seriously need to sleep......
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Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby Kansho » November 30th, 2008, 2:41 pm

The using of all the spells didn't means the end of the contract... Without them, a Servant can turn against his/her Master or go into another Master. But if the Servant is nice or likes his/her Master, the contract continues. If you use all of your Spells, you lost you right as a Master (the right to make a new contract with a new Servant) but if the first contract never broke, then it's already working as a typical magus-familiar contract.


And... what scene shows Caster using Rule Breaker against a Master? In Fate's Dead End at Ryuudo temple, Shirou says "she cuts my left arm off". And in UBW's one with Shirou siding with Caster, you didn't get to see nothing.

Around the game, you only saw Rule Breaker working to sever a contract if it's stabbed against a Servant. That's all. If not, why Caster makes all of that troublesome moves to preserve Shirou's arm with the Seals, or to lure Saber to her range? It's stupid.

And stabbing it against Black Saber or Black Berserker didn't works here. You will only destroy the contract between them and Sakura, but the contract between Sakura and the Shadow it's a different thing.
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Unread postby spathi » November 30th, 2008, 3:48 pm

huh? didn't caster try and stab shirou with the rulebreaker? but saber got in the way and got stabbed instead

so after that we can assume you can stab either one of them
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 30th, 2008, 4:02 pm

spathi wrote:huh? didn't caster try and stab shirou with the rulebreaker? but saber got in the way and got stabbed instead

so after that we can assume you can stab either one of them


So in the end you can kind of think of that weapon as a plot convience tool. It can work on either a Master or a Servant. Like I said beofre it's a matter of who is closer to the one wielding Rule Breaker for it to break any contracts.

Now that I think about it since Sakura had a contract with Avenger and Rider, would that mean that both contracts would of been nulled out. If you tink of it that way Sakura could of re-established herself as Rider's Master once more... but that's just a guess.
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Unread postby Rikh » November 30th, 2008, 4:23 pm

so debatably at the time around when shiro was going to stab sakura in bed, but backed out... it would have been an ideal time to have done so

Although rider probably would have pwned shiro if he tried...
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 30th, 2008, 4:45 pm

Well that's if he was going to use Rule Breaker other then any other kind of weapon. Although it probablly would of been the same end result of Rider finishing him off right then and there.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » November 30th, 2008, 4:55 pm

Command mantra doesn't have much to do with contract. Kuzuki made a contract with Caster without a mantra or even being a magus for that matter. I guess as long as a servant has a source of mana, it may choose who to listen to.
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Unread postby Kansho » November 30th, 2008, 6:10 pm

spathi wrote:huh? didn't caster try and stab shirou with the rulebreaker? but saber got in the way and got stabbed instead

so after that we can assume you can stab either one of them
Er no... Caster tried to KILL Shirou with the dagger. Re-read the scene.

No, and I will say it no matter what the times. It's a common consensus in the fandom that Rule Breaker only works severing contracts stabbing it against Servants, and that's what we saw in the game. That's all.
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Unread postby Catastrophe » November 30th, 2008, 6:40 pm

Kansho wrote:
spathi wrote:huh? didn't caster try and stab shirou with the rulebreaker? but saber got in the way and got stabbed instead

so after that we can assume you can stab either one of them
Er no... Caster tried to KILL Shirou with the dagger. Re-read the scene.

No, and I will say it no matter what the times. It's a common consensus in the fandom that Rule Breaker only works severing contracts stabbing it against Servants, and that's what we saw in the game. That's all.

also I recall during Fate route, just @ gil's appearance, that a choice (not bad/dead end) makes Caster to stab Shirou with it on the back without losing the command spell at all.
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Unread postby Raitei » December 1st, 2008, 3:05 am

Kansho wrote:
spathi wrote:huh? didn't caster try and stab shirou with the rulebreaker? but saber got in the way and got stabbed instead

so after that we can assume you can stab either one of them
Er no... Caster tried to KILL Shirou with the dagger. Re-read the scene.
actually, didn't she try to stab saber when shirou intervened? if you hadn't chosen the "stop saber" option, she would've done it.

No, and I will say it no matter what the times. It's a common consensus in the fandom that Rule Breaker only works severing contracts stabbing it against Servants, and that's what we saw in the game. That's all.
yes and yes. qft.
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Unread postby Rikh » December 1st, 2008, 3:31 am

Raitei wrote:
No, and I will say it no matter what the times. It's a common consensus in the fandom that Rule Breaker only works severing contracts stabbing it against Servants, and that's what we saw in the game. That's all.
yes and yes. qft.


So that means, all shiro has to poke with the dagger is the black fluid stuff then?
Honestly him stabbing Sakura in the end could fit that plan, but if you call that wrapping stuff angra whatevz, then you can consider the creepy creature things angra mainyu

Anywho, are u sure u cant stab sakura? She is still holding grail mana in her body most of the story
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Unread postby Altima of the Gates » December 1st, 2008, 6:40 am

First off, hey guys! My first post here. What's up? :lol:
Anyway:

Well, since Rule Breaker severs lasting magical ties (think like in DnD where you make magical items. Rule Breaker would nullify the item and make it a mundane item).

Now the gang didn't know that Sakura was bound by a magical contract until Ilya explains the situation with Avenger (Angra Manyu) AFTER Sakura turns completely dark. It's the long scene after the "Nine Bullet Revolver" scene. Then the next time they see her, its a shadow familiar. So I don't see where there is a hole there.

Also, and I saw this in the earlier part of the thread, but Sakura did indeed devour Gilgamesh, she even said that his soul "wasn't enough," but it took longer than usual to absorb.

It's in "Nightmare, awakening," an interlude on day 12 for reference.

And here's a pic:

h**p://img372.imageshack.us/my.php?image=whoatheresakurasw5.jpg

Hmph. Gil can rot for all I care, he was a complete douche in this scene. Too bad things went badly for him. heh. :lol:
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