Heaven's Feel Discussion [Spoilers!]

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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Unread postby Euphemism » November 26th, 2008, 7:56 am

Hm, just commenting on what Rufus (I think) said, where Sakura was compared to a serial killer.

That's not a good comparison. Here's a better one:

Consider a loved one (your mom, perhaps) becoming a carrier for a highly infectious disease that kills people horribly. Everyone he or she comes into contact with (except maybe you) will die, including any doctors or nurses who try to cure the disease. Do you kill them or try to find a cure?

Basic point is, Sakura was not morally responsible for the deaths caused by Angra Manyu. However, both she and Angra Manyu were 'threats' to human lives. It cannot be said whether taking their lives is 'good' or 'evil' - that's the point (one of them) of the story.

Another thing is, letting Sakura remain alive means that maybe 100 people will die. But can you kill one person because if you don't, 'probably' 100 people will die? Another thing. Is it natural to say that, 100 people are worth more than 1 person? If so, wouldn't I be justified in killing Bill Gates, taking all his money, and donating it to African charities? That 1 life could 'probably' save thousands. Morality is a tricky thing.
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Unread postby AlinSabel » November 26th, 2008, 8:10 am

Euphemism wrote:Another thing is, letting Sakura remain alive means that maybe 100 people will die. But can you kill one person because if you don't, 'probably' 100 people will die? Another thing. Is it natural to say that, 100 people are worth more than 1 person? If so, wouldn't I be justified in killing Bill Gates, taking all his money, and donating it to African charities? That 1 life could 'probably' save thousands. Morality is a tricky thing.

Well, those people will certainly die as the shadow would have most definitely continued on its rampage.

And... Bill Gates' "link" to the horrible deaths of countless Africans is tenuous at best, unlike the link between Sakura and the people of Shinto and Fuyuki.
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Unread postby samasamon » November 26th, 2008, 6:24 pm

The different of idea is only the different scale. Who is someone you love or prefer?

From the lowest scale
your lover
your parent
...
...
...
your nation
mankind (same species)
...
...
same order
...
...

If your lover is killer and you choose to protect them, you prefer your lover more than other.
If someone in your nation is killer and you choose to protect them, you prefer your nation.
If someone you don't know is animal killer and you choose to protect them, you prefer mankind.
...
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Unread postby rastilin » November 26th, 2008, 7:30 pm

Hm, just commenting on what Rufus (I think) said, where Sakura was compared to a serial killer.

That's not a good comparison. Here's a better one:

Consider a loved one (your mom, perhaps) becoming a carrier for a highly infectious disease that kills people horribly. Everyone he or she comes into contact with (except maybe you) will die, including any doctors or nurses who try to cure the disease. Do you kill them or try to find a cure?

Basic point is, Sakura was not morally responsible for the deaths caused by Angra Manyu. However, both she and Angra Manyu were 'threats' to human lives. It cannot be said whether taking their lives is 'good' or 'evil' - that's the point (one of them) of the story.

Another thing is, letting Sakura remain alive means that maybe 100 people will die. But can you kill one person because if you don't, 'probably' 100 people will die? Another thing. Is it natural to say that, 100 people are worth more than 1 person? If so, wouldn't I be justified in killing Bill Gates, taking all his money, and donating it to African charities? That 1 life could 'probably' save thousands. Morality is a tricky thing.


That's a fine analogy, but not taken to it's conclusion. If I had anyone at all taken with a horrible disease, I'd take them into confinement. Preferably, yes, beneath a mountain. If they decide that their comfort is more important than the lives of the people of the world, they've graduated to "serial killer" status and need to be stopped. I would take the same approach to Sakura, I'd hate to killer her outright while she's not doing anything, but this stops when she uses someone to take her place in order to escape to the outside so she can feed.

Don't have messed up hypotheticals, they fill me up with rage just like the worked over Fallout 3 ending, if you twist the pre-suppositions enough, you can get any answer you want. That's a useless argument to begin with.
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Unread postby Rikh » November 29th, 2008, 1:42 am

Come to think of it...

If shiro just projected Rule Breaker in the beginning, a large portion of HF would have been happier

(for instance)
He could have just used it on saber instead of azoth, and saber could have used her NP to destroy the grail...


or
On black berserker (although this would be pointless since NLBW is a better choice here... a freed berserker could be dangerous


plus he could have drew it on in the very beginning before all the events took place

Shame he never thought of it
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » November 29th, 2008, 2:12 am

Rikh wrote:Come to think of it...

If shiro just projected Rule Breaker in the beginning, a large portion of HF would have been happier

(for instance)
He could have just used it on saber instead of azoth, and saber could have used her NP to destroy the grail...


or
On black berserker (although this would be pointless since NLBW is a better choice here... a freed berserker could be dangerous


plus he could have drew it on in the very beginning before all the events took place

Shame he never thought of it


Damn man, when he projected it I thought "OMG, Shirou is a fucking genius, I never thought of that!" but now that you say it he seems like an idiot :P
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Unread postby abscess » November 29th, 2008, 2:24 am

matthewfarenheit wrote:
Rikh wrote:Come to think of it...

If shiro just projected Rule Breaker in the beginning, a large portion of HF would have been happier

(for instance)
He could have just used it on saber instead of azoth, and saber could have used her NP to destroy the grail...


or
On black berserker (although this would be pointless since NLBW is a better choice here... a freed berserker could be dangerous


plus he could have drew it on in the very beginning before all the events took place

Shame he never thought of it


Damn man, when he projected it I thought "OMG, Shirou is a fucking genius, I never thought of that!" but now that you say it he seems like an idiot :P
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Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby Rikh » November 29th, 2008, 4:57 am

abscess wrote:
matthewfarenheit wrote:
Rikh wrote:Come to think of it...

If shiro just projected Rule Breaker in the beginning, a large portion of HF would have been happier

(for instance)
He could have just used it on saber instead of azoth, and saber could have used her NP to destroy the grail...


or
On black berserker (although this would be pointless since NLBW is a better choice here... a freed berserker could be dangerous


plus he could have drew it on in the very beginning before all the events took place

Shame he never thought of it


Damn man, when he projected it I thought "OMG, Shirou is a fucking genius, I never thought of that!" but now that you say it he seems like an idiot :P
QFT!
Damn, I lol'd hard!

This is why UBW shiro is better than HF Shiro....
UBW shiro to save everybody would project that thing the first day it happened
HF shiro would wait about 10 days before almost dying until he decides to do it
UBW>HF :)
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Unread postby Raitei » November 29th, 2008, 5:24 am

first, you cannot reverse the curse. not by any means. corrupted servants will stay corrupted even if the core of the grail is destroyed (gil is the perfect example. moreover, gil was only "splashed " with the water. saber and berserker was immersed in the shadow and angra mainyu. and heck, if the grail is destroyed, they would also disappear unless sakura, the walking mana tank can supply them, which she most likely cannot since the grail is gone).

so even if shirou used rule breaker to sever the tie to the grail, it would only be a waste of time (and his own life).
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » November 29th, 2008, 6:07 am

Raitei wrote:first, you cannot reverse the curse. not by any means. corrupted servants will stay corrupted even if the core of the grail is destroyed (gil is the perfect example. moreover, gil was only "splashed " with the water. saber and berserker was immersed in the shadow and angra mainyu. and heck, if the grail is destroyed, they would also disappear unless sakura, the walking mana tank can supply them, which she most likely cannot since the grail is gone).

so even if shirou used rule breaker to sever the tie to the grail, it would only be a waste of time (and his own life).


Yeah, of course, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Berserker's God Hand wouldn't allow a Rule Breaker (rank C) to do any effect, or that Shirou wouldn't be able to renew a contract with a cleansed Saber without any Command Spells left. We just wanted to laugh a bit...

Until another technicality nitpicker showed up :P

PD: Yes you can reverse the curse! I said it and you have as many arguments as I do to back up your statements: none. Flame warz shield activated!
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Unread postby Raitei » November 29th, 2008, 6:18 am

matthewfarenheit wrote:PD: Yes you can reverse the curse! I said it and you have as many arguments as I do to back up your statements: none. Flame warz shield activated!
unfortunately for you, I have one : gil. be as it the grail destroyed or anything, he still won't come back to his former self. (yeah, still the king of carelessness with a solid / real body)

moreover, he went "ughaughaugha" after the grail was wiped out for good.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » November 29th, 2008, 6:41 am

Raitei wrote:
matthewfarenheit wrote:PD: Yes you can reverse the curse! I said it and you have as many arguments as I do to back up your statements: none. Flame warz shield activated!
unfortunately for you, I have one : gil. be as it the grail destroyed or anything, he still won't come back to his former self. (yeah, still the king of carelessness with a solid / real body)

moreover, he went "ughaughaugha" after the grail was wiped out for good.

lol, ugha-what? Anyways, be clearer as I don't understand most of what you said. If you mean that Gilgamesh wouldn't come back after the Sakura-grail or the Great grail was destroyed, of course he won't because, in contrast with the other Servants, he was eaten as pure mana and not assimilated. As we know and the scene with Dark Sakura & Kotomine shows just as Dark Berserker is defeated: Sakura doesn't eat the assimilated Servants right away because the mana overloads her, so she rather uses them, and when Dark Berserker dies we can see how eating so much mana drives her mad.

If you're saying something else, that's where my statement comes into play: how can you affirm or deny that a corrupted Servant can or cannot be cleansed if nothing like that happens or is stated that couldn't happen? After all, Rule Breaker IS the dagger that breaks ALL CONTRACTS, so it may as well do the job.

And we have F/HA with all the dark versions coming and going for comic relief... don't underestimate Nasu!
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Unread postby AlinSabel » November 29th, 2008, 6:55 am

matthewfarenheit wrote:If you're saying something else, that's where my statement comes into play: how can you affirm or deny that a corrupted Servant can or cannot be cleansed if nothing like that happens or is stated that couldn't happen? After all, Rule Breaker IS the dagger that breaks ALL CONTRACTS, so it may as well do the job.


While I understand that Gilgamesh is a real eirei and as such, there isn't really a contract existing between him and the Throne of Heroes/Grail - it's more of the Grail borrowing the heroes from the world, after all - how about Archer and his contract to ZA WARUDO?
Could Rule Breaker break his contract? Would he lose his contract-given power boosts?
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Unread postby Raitei » November 29th, 2008, 7:06 am

matthewfarenheit wrote:lol, ugha-what? Anyways, be clearer as I don't understand most of what you said. If you mean that Gilgamesh wouldn't come back after the Sakura-grail or the Great grail was destroyed, of course he won't because, in contrast with the other Servants, he was eaten as pure mana and not assimilated. As we know and the scene with Dark Sakura & Kotomine shows just as Dark Berserker is defeated: Sakura doesn't eat the assimilated Servants right away because the mana overloads her, so she rather uses them, and when Dark Berserker dies we can see how eating so much mana drives her mad.
you know, gil was splashed with the corrupted grail water / angra mainyu after the 4th war, giving him a real body and twisted mind. the amount of corruption wasn't even one tenth of the amount black saber and black berserker were immersed in, and even when the grail was destroyed in ubw (which means his connection with the grail is erased), he still won't come back to his former self; still possessing that real body and twisted mind.

matthewfarenheit wrote:If you're saying something else, that's where my statement comes into play: how can you affirm or deny that a corrupted Servant can or cannot be cleansed if nothing like that happens or is stated that couldn't happen? After all, Rule Breaker IS the dagger that breaks ALL CONTRACTS, so it may as well do the job.
as I said, breaking the contract won't do. the contract / link between gil and the grail was broken in the end of ubw, but gil still won't come back to his former self.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence
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Unread postby Inverted » November 29th, 2008, 11:46 am

I don't know, but what I think Raitei is trying to say is that rule-breaker can't separate you from your own body. The body of corrupted servants itself was made of Angra Mainyu stuff.Stabbing it with rule breaker would be pointless as there is no contract but their body itself is an extension of Angra Mainyu. It'll be like stabbing Gil with Rule-Breaker and hoping he loses his fake body. Made sense? Feel free to ignore if it doesn't.
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Unread postby Kansho » November 29th, 2008, 12:07 pm

Shirou can't RuleBreak Sakura at first. You have to use the dagger against the Servant, AKA: The shadow that enveloped her body.

And no, blackenned Servants can't come back to their previous selves. The curse totally warps the Servant, as they are spiritual entities. They are cursed to the core, and they suffer a negative inversion of personality. The copy ends totally "changed", but the main body at the Throne remains unaffected.
Last edited by Kansho on November 29th, 2008, 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
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Unread postby AlinSabel » November 29th, 2008, 12:13 pm

Kansho wrote:Shirou can't RuleBreak Sakura at first. You have to use the dagger against the Servant, AKA: The shadow that enveloped her body.

Could still do it on the times they meet the Shadow. -_-
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Unread postby Kansho » November 29th, 2008, 12:16 pm

AlinSabel wrote:
Kansho wrote:Shirou can't RuleBreak Sakura at first. You have to use the dagger against the Servant, AKA: The shadow that enveloped her body.

Could still do it on the times they meet the Shadow. -_-
He didn't know about it. When he learns that Sakura is the shadow's gate, the shadow didn't appear anymore.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.
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Unread postby Raitei » November 29th, 2008, 12:17 pm

Inverted wrote:I don't know, but what I think Raitei is trying to say is that rule-breaker can't separate you from your own body. The body of corrupted servants itself was made of Angra Mainyu stuff.Stabbing it with rule breaker would be pointless as there is no contract but their body itself is an extension of Angra Mainyu. It'll be like stabbing Gil with Rule-Breaker and hoping he loses his fake body. Made sense? Feel free to ignore if it doesn't.
yeah, pretty much like that. thanks for clearing. :)

to put it simpler, even though you remove a rotten apple from a rotten tree, it's still rotten. it won't turn good again even though after you remove it from its branch. just like that.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence
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Unread postby Rikh » November 29th, 2008, 4:22 pm

Kansho wrote:
AlinSabel wrote:
Kansho wrote:Shirou can't RuleBreak Sakura at first. You have to use the dagger against the Servant, AKA: The shadow that enveloped her body.

Could still do it on the times they meet the Shadow. -_-
He didn't know about it. When he learns that Sakura is the shadow's gate, the shadow didn't appear anymore.


he learned of rule breaker very early in the game :|

during the time period where he and saber were killing off servants one by one every night
besides...
where he was gonna knife sakura in her room, he could have just traced rule breaker for that... its a good knife =P
Although a scene with rider might have ruined that


btw, anyone else hate rider in HF? she was so annoying to me, i despised her... its like shirou had to put up with her very lack of support till the end

(EDITED HERE)
Btw, i need to say this... a lil off topic, but i might be a saber fan now...


This video, combined with the picture of saber, and the background music, has made me <3 saiba
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