Translation error in UBW? (Re: Implied lesbian sequence.)

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Unread postby Wiiown » October 31st, 2008, 2:11 am

AlinSabel wrote:
Wiiown wrote:Well the other alternatives were already stated as possibilities by myself and others, but as I said what you say is possible just unlikely to me. However if we were to assume what you said was true for the sake of discussion........hot.

You're into taking advantage of unconscious girls, when there may or may not be other methods to benefit them? @_@


Of course not, I'm into having hot tsundere sadists taking advantage of unconscious girls when there may or may not be other methods to benefit them and watching......what?
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Unread postby AlinSabel » October 31st, 2008, 2:19 am

Wiiown wrote:
AlinSabel wrote:
Wiiown wrote:Well the other alternatives were already stated as possibilities by myself and others, but as I said what you say is possible just unlikely to me. However if we were to assume what you said was true for the sake of discussion........hot.

You're into taking advantage of unconscious girls, when there may or may not be other methods to benefit them? @_@


Of course not, I'm into having hot tsundere sadists taking advantage of unconscious girls when there may or may not be other methods to benefit them and watching......what?

:oops:




:roll:

I still think the "Rin"/Ayako scene should've been in the computer version as well!
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Unread postby Wiiown » October 31st, 2008, 2:21 am

AlinSabel wrote: :oops:




:roll:

I still think the "Rin"/Ayako scene should've been in the computer version as well!


I totally agree, because that way they could have made it more....ahem explicit. Although on second thought I wouldn't want Nasu's writing ruining something so nice.
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Unread postby Balcerzak » October 31st, 2008, 12:23 pm

The text of the scenes in question:
凛ルート五日目-09.ks wrote:*page5|
"...Good. She's only unconscious."[l][r]
I check on the female student.[l][r]
She must be in the first year.[l][r]
She's unconscious, but I don't see any wounds, so she should be all right.
*page6|
"You're wrong[line3]! She's so pale! Can't you tell that she's empty inside!?"[l][r]
"Huh...? Empty inside...?"
*page7|
"She has had her magical energy, no, life energy to be precise, drained. ...This is about as bad, no, worse than the people who got attacked by Caster.[l][r]
[line3]She'll die if we let her be."[l][r]
"Die!? Even though she doesn't have any wounds!?"
*page8|
"Hey now. It's only natural for someone to die if they're empty inside even if they don't have any external wounds. ...Hold on, I think I can do something with the stone I have[line4]"
*page9|
She searches her pocket.[l][r]
...Thank God.[l][r]
It seems serious, but Tohsaka seems to know how to cure her.
*page10|
Tohsaka kneels down and looks at the female student.[l][r]
"[line8]"[l][r]
Her face looks serious.[l][r]
She tends to the female student while sweat forms on her forehead.

Rider attacks and Shirou follows.
Stuff happens.
凛ルート五日目-13.ks wrote:*page10|
"[line4]Hm?"[l][r]
Then that Master is the one who attacked the female student...?[l][r]
"Hold on, Tohsaka. How's that girl...!?"
*page11|
"She's doing better. She's sleeping in the nurse's office now, so her life's not in danger."[l][r]
"[line6]I see. That's good."[l][r]
I sigh with relief.[l][r]
...That means all problems have been resolved.[l][r]
Then what's left is[line4]
*page12|
"Huh? W-Why are you staring at me? H-Hey, I won't do something like that!"[l][r]
I don't know how she misunderstood.[l][r]
Tohsaka, um, sometimes makes the stupidest misunderstandings.
*page13|
"Hey, I know that. You won't do such a thing. What I want to ask is if you want to continue. Do you want to keep fighting or not?"[l][r]
"[line8]"[l][r]
Hearing this, Tohsaka freezes.
*page14|
...How long did it last?[l][r]
Tohsaka glares at me once,[l][r]
then hangs her head as if giving up.
*page15|
"......"[l][r]
That's fine.[l][r]
But it troubles me if she makes such a face near me.
*page16|
"Tohsaka? What do you want to do?"[l][r]
"I won't do it. This is it for today. I'm not in the mood anymore, and I owe you for another thing."[l][r]
She gets up and brushes dirt off her knees.


To summarize some important points already mentioned in the thread:
  • Iiyo wrote:I'm much more inclined to believe that Tohsaka managed to create lesbian innuendo by herself about the idea of "mana restoration," [...] [as] "mana restoration" would solve the drained girl's problem[.]
  • AlinSabel wrote:Shirou was thinking about the third party who had interrupted the battle, Rin was thinking about continuing the attack on Shirou.
  • Iiyo wrote:Shirou points out that Rin's reaction is a misunderstanding, so she wasn't thinking about what Shirou was thinking. Plus, when Shirou asked whether Rin wanted to continue the fight from before, a new look of surprise appeared. So, clearly, that was not on her mind.
  • Iiyo wrote:I'm tempted to go with the possibility that she might really have done that, considering her apparent need to awkwardly deny something Shirou wasn't even thinking about, but for some reason she was.

Firstly, Iiyo's interpretation that Rin has come to an embarrassing misunderstanding by assuming Shirou is staring at her due to overtones of "sexual healing" is a very interesting one, and I think it comes with a lot of merit to be perfectly honest. I think everyone is perfectly content in the fact that this idea at least was certainly not on Shirou's mind at all. AlinSabel's counterarguement seems to be that Shirou is thinking of the third master, while Rin is thinking of continuing her assault and that this is what explains all of the misunderstandings going on, but this is clearly not the case.

"Hey, I know that. You won't do such a thing. What I want to ask is if you want to continue. Do you want to keep fighting or not?"[l][r]
"[line8]"[l][r]
Hearing this, Tohsaka freezes.


To me these few lines succinctly summarize the situation. Shirou was the one who was considering the fact of whether or not Rin was still going to attack him. We honestly don't know what Rin was thinking, but we know that it wasn't this. Upon my first reading of the passages my initial thought was that Rin's misunderstanding was that she thought that Shirou thought that she was somehow involved in the attack on the student, and she proceeds to defend herself with the now familiar "I won't do something like that", which in this interpretation could just as easily be expressed as "I wouldn't do something like that". (The former having the sort of nuanced meaning of "I currently won't engage in such behaviour", whereas the later is more "I haven't done anything like that, and regardless of circumstances in the future I wouldn't do it then either", at least as I see it.) So I would at any rate tend to agree that the proposed correction is valid (and should apply to Shirou's counter "I know you won't"->"I know you wouldn't" as well), even regardless of the final judgement on whether or not Rin's train of thought had rolled a gutter-ball at this particular point in time.

That being said, Rin is certainly prone to making grievous misunderstandings throughout the game, in particular when they regard other masters and "common knowledge" for magi or on the matters of sex.
Witness her assumption that Shirou had a magic crest, her assumption that masters had to be magi leading her to discount Shinji and Kuzuki, her surprise at the size of Shirou's "equipment", etc.

I find it completely plausible that Rin expected Shirou to be knowledgeable on the various methods of mana transfer, and could have misinterpreted his stare (which was meant to size up whether she was still a threat) as accusation of lebsian behaviour. Making this kind of misunderstanding and becoming flustered and making rattled protestations is fully within her character, and would add a lovely optional humourous subtext to this scene.

As far as her actually performing such a means to restore the girl's health goes, contrary to Iiyo's assertion of plausibility based on the strength of Rin's denial, I find rather that the following lines quite clearly indicate what happened.
"Hey now. It's only natural for someone to die if they're empty inside even if they don't have any external wounds. ...Hold on, I think I can do something with the stone I have[line4]"
*page9|
She searches her pocket.[l][r]
...Thank God.[l][r]
It seems serious, but Tohsaka seems to know how to cure her.

It seems to be to be quite apparently that Rin used one of her many jewels to help stabilize the girl (which I believe was also floated as an option by somebody else previously, probably AlinSabel"). So as far as our resident tsundere taking advantage of the helpless maiden goes, as hot an option as that may have been to speculate about, it was sadly not to be.

One final comment:
AlinSabel wrote:And anyway, original text reads "Huh? W-why are you staring at me? H-hey, I won't do something like that!", right? 'Won't' meaning 'will not' -> something happening in the future? I highly doubt Taka would make a mistake with the tense. :P

You can't be serious. Taka makes mistakes with tenses all the time.

Dozens of won't/wouldn't and can't/couldn't can be easily found perusing the typo/grammar thread. Here's a small sampling:
Line: I realized even as a child. ----That most likely... He won't be coming back.
Problem: verb tense agreement. "realized" is in the past tense, so the other verb in the sentence should match it, however "won't" (or will not) is used, which is in the future tense. The conditional tense should be used instead, as the conditional is used to express the "future" when one is in the past.

Line: Of course! She won't be so unkind to me if that wasn't the case...!
Problem: verb tense, subjunctive. Past tense leads to conditional tense. Also, positing something contrary to fact.
Solution: She _wouldn't_ be so unkind to me if that _weren't_ the case

Line: Saber won't last long. I vaguely knew that she won't be able to make it until morning like this.
Problem: tense. Past tense takes the conditional not the future.
Solution: that she _wouldn't_ be able to

Line: She's looking around the living room curiously, but it seems like Tohsaka and Saber are none of her concern. She probably won't listen even if they talked to her.
Problem: tense. Conditional
Solution: probably _wouldn't_ listen

Line: But Saber. This won't change even if I valued my life above all.
Problem: tense. Conditional
Solution: This _wouldn't_ change

Line: But you were in pain, you weren't the only one, I had my hands full restraining myself, and I had to act calm even after it so that I won't attack you, well, that's not true, but um----
Problem: wrong tense. Past tense takes conditional not future.
Solution: so that I _wouldn't_ attack
Solution: He _wouldn't_ be coming back.

etc.

Taka can't be expected to catch them all, nor can the proofers, nor can the beta-testers, a few of them will inevitably slip past. Some of them aren't crucial errors, and don't really make a large difference in meaning, and often one's brain will internally adjust what it reads to make sense with what you'd expect it to say, which is often good enough. This just seems like another case of mixed tense matching in my opinion. Rin is referencing the attack on the girl (or her subsequent healing by embarrassing circumstances), which happened in the past, explaining that she wasn't responsible, she wouldn't do it. In neither interpretation is "won't" a preferable choice, although it can serve passably. I'd honestly suggest Iiyo make a report of this line in the typo/grammar thread, so that Taka can review it, and see if it fits with his interpretation.

I think that's really all I have to say on the matter at this point.
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Unread postby Catastrophe » October 31st, 2008, 1:37 pm

Balcerzak wrote:The text of the scenes in question:
凛ルート五日目-09.ks wrote:*page5|
"...Good. She's only unconscious."[l][r]
I check on the female student.[l][r]
She must be in the first year.[l][r]
She's unconscious, but I don't see any wounds, so she should be all right.
*page6|
"You're wrong[line3]! She's so pale! Can't you tell that she's empty inside!?"[l][r]
"Huh...? Empty inside...?"
*page7|
"She has had her magical energy, no, life energy to be precise, drained. ...This is about as bad, no, worse than the people who got attacked by Caster.[l][r]
[line3]She'll die if we let her be."[l][r]
"Die!? Even though she doesn't have any wounds!?"
*page8|
"Hey now. It's only natural for someone to die if they're empty inside even if they don't have any external wounds. ...Hold on, I think I can do something with the stone I have[line4]"
tl/dr



but anyway, there in bold is the only line to prove Iiyo's theory wrong.
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Unread postby Mkilbride » October 31st, 2008, 4:04 pm

Ring a ding ding. Knockout.
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Unread postby Wiiown » October 31st, 2008, 6:52 pm

The only hole in your above theory is that Rin knew beforehand that Shirou
was completely useless as a magi when it comes to knowledge, she also learned that Kiritsugu didn't teach him much at all. She probably would have known therefore that he didn't consider the idea of sex to restore mana. The line about the stone proves she didn't, but her having that misunderstanding also seems unlikely because of her foreknowledge of shirou's lack of knowledge.
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