Original vs Fake (Spoilers)

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Unread postby Rikh » September 26th, 2008, 3:19 am

elite5472 wrote:Theorically since hes a timeless Counter Guardian... he could have been summoned an unlimited amount of times in different pasts, presents, futures or different realities and thus, he would have an unlimited amount of blades to choose from since he could have spawned an unlimited amount of times in different realities, and seen different kinds of swords during his timeless history :D


I guess thats true. Since counter guardians receive all the data of when they were spawned (although its strictly informational format only) so he might actually have a vast amount of swords collected from his infinite spawning's

he was probably summoned a lot in the future and past events that required the saving of humanity (or killing those who opposed it...)
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 26th, 2008, 3:31 am

VERY INTERESTING. So Archer in fact has more potential than Gilgamesh, as he may have even more weapons than Gilgamesh. More options never hurt.
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Unread postby Rikh » September 26th, 2008, 6:39 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:VERY INTERESTING. So Archer in fact has more potential than Gilgamesh, as he may have even more weapons than Gilgamesh. More options never hurt.

well Archer can pretty much destroy gilgamesh at almost any point in the novel. Since he has every single counter for gilgamesh's weapons.
Taking out the suprise element, i am sure he can stand a fairly good chance with his reality marble too.
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » September 26th, 2008, 7:01 am

Rikh wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:VERY INTERESTING. So Archer in fact has more potential than Gilgamesh, as he may have even more weapons than Gilgamesh. More options never hurt.

well Archer can pretty much destroy gilgamesh at almost any point in the novel. Since he has every single counter for gilgamesh's weapons.
Taking out the suprise element, i am sure he can stand a fairly good chance with his reality marble too.


Well, thinking about it. Gil can shoot something more than swords actually. And since shirou can only project swords...
I don't know why Gil didn't used something more usefull than swords.
A rain of Maces or a rain of Lances would have been more than enough to kill shirou.
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Unread postby nanaya_shinya » September 26th, 2008, 8:38 am

zweiterversuch wrote:Well, thinking about it. Gil can shoot something more than swords actually. And since shirou can only project swords...
I don't know why Gil didn't used something more useful than swords.
A rain of Maces or a rain of Lances would have been more than enough to kill shirou.


That's because Nasu said so...
That or because Gil just used whichever he has access to first...his swords.
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Unread postby Rikh » September 26th, 2008, 8:28 pm

nanaya_shinya wrote:
zweiterversuch wrote:Well, thinking about it. Gil can shoot something more than swords actually. And since shirou can only project swords...
I don't know why Gil didn't used something more useful than swords.
A rain of Maces or a rain of Lances would have been more than enough to kill shirou.


That's because Nasu said so...
That or because Gil just used whichever he has access to first...his swords.


Shiro is pretty capable in projecting melee weapons mostly. Maces and Lances (well at least lances) he was able to project against gil.

Although if gil popped out with the flying machine, it might be tough
Or if he went to a large area and did a huge sword spam, then archer would have to go through a lot of pain to create all the same shots
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » September 26th, 2008, 8:54 pm

Rikh wrote:Although if gil popped out with the flying machine, it might be tough

If we come to unique items each one has, then Shirou will easily counter that Flying machine with his insanely powerful... soccer ball? :shock:

Jokes aside, Shirou is pretty much able to recreate most melee weapons, not just swords, altough the cost in mana is probably higher the more he departs from his speciality ("defensive equipment" such as shields, that are pretty much another concept although related to swords, cost him two to three times the ammount of magic for a plain sword)

And I thought that it was pretty much established that Gilgamesh was the King of Carelessness. Statemets like "he could have..." are ok, but questions like "why he didn't" are kinda obvious.
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Unread postby elite5472 » September 27th, 2008, 3:38 am

There is no limmit to the size of the sword he can trace, he can just imagine a gigantic bakuya and crash the thing into gilgamesh.
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Unread postby Rikh » September 27th, 2008, 5:02 pm

elite5472 wrote:There is no limmit to the size of the sword he can trace, he can just imagine a gigantic bakuya and crash the thing into gilgamesh.


umm there is a few errors
Design, materials, construction process, etc. When shiro makes a projection he has to perform all those acts to make sure the weapon that comes out as a product is correct. Since its a giant version, the structure would have to be remade to prevent bending/etc from its own weight, It would have no history as a weapon in time, nor the smithing method never existed in history, so he wouldn't even be able to accurately reproduce the traits of it

He also probably can make his own sword, but tracing it would make its quality extremely low since its not a NP. If he traces a long sword, it will be completely weaker compared to tracing Excalibur

Archer modifying caladbolg is possible however. Shiro can make alterations to his weapons slightly without much quality loss. At the expense of making caladbolg an aerial affiliated weapon, it lost most of its melee abilities. With kansho and byakua, shiro could make them a bit longer/lighter/sturdier, but the changes would have to be somewhat small so the product is still similar to the original

here's why he cannot do that projection
    * It costs too much mana to make a giant weapon that can crush people
    * He would not have the strength to even pick it up. In the nine lives case, he was able to also amplify his body by copying hercules's NP
    * The image would be incorrect and be very breakable*
    * It would not be too powerful since it stems way too far from the original
    * Would take too long to project if possible
    * Shiros mind would probably overload his magic circuit in the construction...


Although it would be awesome to do, he simply cannot project a giant weapon freely... at least without seeing one in the first place
this is considering his magic circuit, and mana supply could even handle doing that
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Unread postby Ryougi07 » October 13th, 2008, 12:52 pm

Rikh wrote:* He would not have the strength to even pick it up. In the nine lives case, he was able to also amplify his body by copying hercules's NP


You mean he got God Hand? Isn't God Hand a life supply/super regeneration/revival NP, does it give strength?
BTW
Please forgive me for going off topic in this sentence, but it's been bugging me for a while
Was it explained properly why Shirou couldn't make a copy of Ea?
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Unread postby Divine » October 13th, 2008, 3:44 pm

Ea is a weapon forged of materials that are not of this (Shirou's) world.

I wonder if Shirou would be able to trace Ea if he had access to the base samples that Ea was made of.
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Unread postby Rikh » October 13th, 2008, 8:33 pm

Ryougi07 wrote:
Rikh wrote:* He would not have the strength to even pick it up. In the nine lives case, he was able to also amplify his body by copying hercules's NP


You mean he got God Hand? Isn't God Hand a life supply/super regeneration/revival NP, does it give strength?
BTW
Please forgive me for going off topic in this sentence, but it's been bugging me for a while
Was it explained properly why Shirou couldn't make a copy of Ea?


umm he didnt copy god hand... actually i cant remember what happened

I think in the translation of the nine-bullet revolver scene Shiro copied berserkers sword, and since it was too big for him to hold, he also copied his herculean strength to match it
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » October 13th, 2008, 10:03 pm

In Nasuverse, everything has intrinsic memories, even inanimate objects. Also, things that you frequently come into contact with gain some of your characteristics. Weapons such as Berserker's axe remember how it was held, how it was swung, and how Nine Lives was executed. From Shirou's tracing of Caliburn and the axe club, it looks like that once held, the weapon would behave according to its memory (there is no way Shirou's swordsmanship can parry Berserker's attacks). Not sure about you guys, but my mental image is always Shirou being dragged around by the weapon like a puppet.

@Rikh,
I don't think strength can be traced, and also self-modification at that level would be tough for Shirou (temporarily boost your strength to A+? Archer maybe, as he was warping his eyeball and such). It was either the axe was moving itself (like a train following pre-constructed train tracks, and also guiding Shirou along). Or, the axe actually contained EVERYTHING about Berserker, all the status and noble phantasms, and Shirou just became a pseudo-Berserker by tracing the axe. The second theory sounds like a stretch, but then again, I only have access to summaries and fragments of translation....
Last edited by Keeper of Gil's Vault on October 13th, 2008, 10:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby Zensunni » October 13th, 2008, 10:05 pm

Yeah, the VN gave that impression when Shirou used Caliburn at least.
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Unread postby Rikh » October 14th, 2008, 1:30 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:@Rikh,
I don't think strength can be traced, and also self-modification at that level would be tough for Shirou (temporarily boost your strength to A+? Archer maybe, as he was warping his eyeball and such). It was either the axe was moving itself (like a train following pre-constructed train tracks, and also guiding Shirou along). Or, the axe actually contained EVERYTHING about Berserker, all the status and noble phantasms, and Shirou just became a pseudo-Berserker by tracing the axe. The second theory sounds like a stretch, but then again, I only have access to summaries and fragments of translation....


Ummm hmm, maybe it didnt say copy his strength...
Shiro can do reinforcement on his eyes though, its shown in the beginning of the novel in UBW (and i think fate)

Umm well maybe this makes sense...
Upon activating the arm, he gained archers strength through his magic circuits. And when he copied the NP, along with his nine live blade works ability, he gained the ability to fire off the np... which does nine hits so quickly that it breaches mach 5. So most likely the np guided him along? or it gave him the herculean strength to use it since he activated its name????


i dont know... ill read the translation when the patch is released and come back to this
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » October 15th, 2008, 1:54 pm

Rikh, like you said on the matter of God Hand. Regardless of the detail mechanism, the purpose of this scene is to demonstrate the sheer will and determination of Shirou. Because of Shirou's unwavering determination to protect those around him, he is able to achieve what others thought was impossible - slaying a servant.
Although you can say the artificial phantasm played a large part, but I think the point here is that Shirou is not only himself in this scene, he is also channeling Archer. The spotlight is rarely on Archer, and he does not get to showcase his skills much. I remeber in this scene Shirou keeps having visions of Archer, who encourges him to "catch up to him". This I thought was cool, because it kind of made this battle one for both Shirou and Archer.
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Unread postby gexer64 » October 15th, 2008, 2:50 pm

Rikh wrote:
Ryougi07 wrote:
Rikh wrote:* He would not have the strength to even pick it up. In the nine lives case, he was able to also amplify his body by copying hercules's NP


You mean he got God Hand? Isn't God Hand a life supply/super regeneration/revival NP, does it give strength?
BTW
Please forgive me for going off topic in this sentence, but it's been bugging me for a while
Was it explained properly why Shirou couldn't make a copy of Ea?


umm he didnt copy god hand... actually i cant remember what happened

I think in the translation of the nine-bullet revolver scene Shiro copied berserkers sword, and since it was too big for him to hold, he also copied his herculean strength to match it



Here from fuyuki wiki:
The Noble Phantasm that Heroic Spirit Hercules had relied on the most. The bows and arrows that destroyed the hydra. Afterwards, the ability of it was mimicked in an attack method which could be used with other weapons, such as a large sword. In other words, more like the Noble Phantasm art of Nine Lives. The main "Nine Lives" used by Hercules is supposed to be an anti-phantasm beast, dragon-type 9-shot simultaneous homing laser volley.

Basically it was able to used due to the fact that Shirou acquires the memory of the blade. This can be seen when he uses caliburn in the fate route. I stated this before but this allows shirou to counter Gilgamesh an "owner" and not a "wielder."
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » October 15th, 2008, 4:35 pm

@gexer64,
There is no doubt that the memory of the weapon is involved, but we were trying to discuss where is Shirou's strenght coming from. You can learn a new technique, but strength cannot really be learned. The technique may involve swinging at super-sonic speed, but not everyone's body can endure that.
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Unread postby Rikh » October 15th, 2008, 9:09 pm

the technique might also put the np on auto-pilot, so physical strength might not be necisarry

however....
Shiro held the weapon in the air before activating it...
shiro also made a strike with the weapon after nine lives was used

so the memories of the weapon could explain the mach-5-successive-hits , but the rest is a little unexplained
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Unread postby Raitei » October 16th, 2008, 12:09 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:@gexer64,
There is no doubt that the memory of the weapon is involved, but we were trying to discuss where is Shirou's strenght coming from. You can learn a new technique, but strength cannot really be learned. The technique may involve swinging at super-sonic speed, but not everyone's body can endure that.
shirou also copied berserker's strength of arm, you see.
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Perceive his great sword to perfection.
Open your left hand and grip the imagined handle.
Its astronomical weight.
Emiya Shirou can not handle that great sword.
But....definate replication of the monstrous strength of the enemy is possible with this left arm.

taken from that particular scene. it definitely shows strength COULD be traced.
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