Rank and Power (*warning* spoiler galore)

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Rank and Power (*warning* spoiler galore)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 5th, 2008, 2:54 am

Through some digging around and reading Fate, it is apparent that rank (or mystery) and power do not correlate. Fuyuki wiki stated that as an object or living organism accumulate age and fame, it gains degree of mystery. I interpret this as the rank of a noble phantasm or a phantasmal beast. Power is more obvious, it is essentially the destructive potential of a weapon. Waver Velvet described Iskander's Gordius Wheel chariot has the destructive power equivalent to a carpet bomber. However, here is where the power and rank issue comes in, a carpet comber will do nothing to a servant, because it possesses no degree of mystery, nor is it magical (not like a magical bomb made by a modern magus is gonna help much, as servants all have some degree of magical resistance). On the other hand, the Gordius Wheel may leave a low ranking servant half dead.
Another example is a hypothetical clash between Berserker and Lancer. Lancer launches Gae Bolg, which is rank B and should result in instant death if the LUCK check fails. However, God Hand kicks in, nullifying all weapons below rank B, thus Gae Bolg bounces off. Now this is pretty interesting, we can unleash an anti-world weapon, but if its degree of mystery is not high enough, it will not even dent Berserker.
Now, let's hypothetically say Gilgamesh is serious about fight Berserker, he obtains "Big Rock-ancestor of all weapons", the first weapon utilized by mankind, from Gate of Babylon. It inflicts the same damage as any other object of the same mass that obeys Newtonian physics, but it is older than all the weapons in the world and gained much fame because everyone knows about it, or maybe even used a replica of it. As a result, this said rock achieves a high rank, lets say A or A+. If Gilgamesh hurls this rock and invokes its true name, it will effectively obliterate Berserker?
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Unread postby Atvaark » September 5th, 2008, 12:14 pm

sorry, but the idea of berserker getting his ass handed to him by a rock just made me snort my cereals. well let's face it. gilgamesh is physically weak. about the same level as shirou. now if you have a regular human throw a rock at berseker, even the most famous rock ever, i still doubt it will do any damage. think about it. that said rock would have become famous because it created the meaning of weaponry. if that rock was a weak weapon, meaning couldn't down a rabbit, making that rock a A+ weapon wouldn't increase it's power. it would just mean it could *potentially* hurt berserker....but i think the only person that would be capable of hurting him with said rock...would be himself, who has the required power to make it an effective weapon.
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Unread postby Rikh » September 5th, 2008, 3:10 pm

Atvaark wrote:sorry, but the idea of berserker getting his ass handed to him by a rock just made me snort my cereals. well let's face it. gilgamesh is physically weak. about the same level as shirou. now if you have a regular human throw a rock at berseker, even the most famous rock ever, i still doubt it will do any damage. think about it. that said rock would have become famous because it created the meaning of weaponry. if that rock was a weak weapon, meaning couldn't down a rabbit, making that rock a A+ weapon wouldn't increase it's power. it would just mean it could *potentially* hurt berserker....but i think the only person that would be capable of hurting him with said rock...would be himself, who has the required power to make it an effective weapon.


Also you might hurt him if the grade is B or above, but it doesnt mean itil kill him. To kill berserker you basically need to have the ability to kill a very overly strong human 12 times total. This means fatal blows (heart, skull, etc...) also remember servants dont die so easily from even impossible wounds. Lancer had his heart destroyed and he still moved around just fine for some revenge. (also in F/HA he has a much much larger damage inflicted while still being able to move/talk somewhat) So if you want to kill Berserker with a rock, by all means go for it

Its concept of a weapon must be intolerably high to make up for the little damage a normal rock...boulder....or even mountain can cause him. and then it must kill him 12 other times in different ways... hopefully if your lucky, god hand wont record the rock, and only the way you used the rock to kill him =)
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Unread postby Raitei » September 5th, 2008, 3:16 pm

Rikh wrote:
Atvaark wrote:sorry, but the idea of berserker getting his ass handed to him by a rock just made me snort my cereals. well let's face it. gilgamesh is physically weak. about the same level as shirou. now if you have a regular human throw a rock at berseker, even the most famous rock ever, i still doubt it will do any damage. think about it. that said rock would have become famous because it created the meaning of weaponry. if that rock was a weak weapon, meaning couldn't down a rabbit, making that rock a A+ weapon wouldn't increase it's power. it would just mean it could *potentially* hurt berserker....but i think the only person that would be capable of hurting him with said rock...would be himself, who has the required power to make it an effective weapon.


Also you might hurt him if the grade is B or above, but it doesnt mean itil kill him. To kill berserker you basically need to have the ability to kill a very overly strong human 12 times total. This means fatal blows (heart, skull, etc...) also remember servants dont die so easily from even impossible wounds. Lancer had his heart destroyed and he still moved around just fine for some revenge. (also in F/HA he has a much much larger damage inflicted while still being able to move/talk somewhat) So if you want to kill Berserker with a rock, by all means go for it
you're a bit off. most servants won't die from severe wounds or blood loss, but they will most likely die if they take a truly fatal wound. as in, having their "heart / core" destroyed. but berserker and lancer has battle continuation skill, which contributes for them to stay put a bit longer even when they took such wound. (like when lancer stabbed himself in the heart, and when berserker was impaled by a gae bolg-like spear straight at the heart by gilgamesh).

Rikh wrote:Its concept of a weapon must be intolerably high to make up for the little damage a normal rock...boulder....or even mountain can cause him. and then it must kill him 12 other times in different ways... hopefully if your lucky, god hand wont record the rock, and only the way you used the rock to kill him =)
hmm, if you use magic to create what's like an avalanche, I doubt berserker will be able to stand against it...
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 6th, 2008, 6:13 am

Well, this Berserker getting killed by a rock thing amuses me to no end. It might not be all that far-fetched. Remember King David? In Nasuverse, humans from ancient times are way way powerful. King David killed Goliath (which is one beast of a man, and in Nasuverse terms probably even more powerful). David killed him with a sling shot and a pebble, and you guessed it, Gilgamesh probably has that slingshot and that pebble, or the prototype of it (I am laughing so hard as I am typing this). SO, this sling shot and pebble combo (let's assume they work like Bellerphone and the Pegasus), killed this Philistine champion, and is very well known (come on, all my friends know this tale, and most of them are not even Jewish or Christian, and you, who are reading this, probably know it well too). Therefore, it is not absurd to give it a rank A+ right? Since David's sling shot can slay a champion from the age of prophets and true miracles, for sure it is going to cost Hercules some lives, don't you agree?
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Unread postby AlinSabel » September 6th, 2008, 6:18 am

David and Goliath... was that before or after Ancient Greece? I get the feeling it was after, so it may not have as much mystery as Heracles.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 6th, 2008, 6:29 am

Arg, touche, David and Goliath is after Ancient Greece. HOWEVER, it is before King Arthur's legend I believe, since Caliburn obliterated Berserker, I think the pebble still has a pretty good chance, ahahaha.

Edit: Confirmed David's pebble is older than Arthur's Excalibur and Caliburn. Now watch out for that head shot Berserker.
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Unread postby GreenSamurai » September 7th, 2008, 4:05 pm

This thread is funny but I will join in anyway.Yeah,if Haxiburn can take away 7 of Berserker's life then the pebble will take away 8-11 lives depending on where it hit.8 for body shots,9 for neck shots,10 for head shots and 11 for groin shots.I can see Berserker's terrified face now...MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
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Unread postby kensain » September 15th, 2008, 3:38 am

Hey, it's not ~THAT~ ridiculous.

After all, in the original legend, Excalibur was just a bloody sharp sword (and gae bolg had that yummy 7x7 spearhead deal).
I'm sure Nasu would make the sling travel at the speed of gods (after all, it ~is~ a divine mystery)
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Unread postby GreenSamurai » September 15th, 2008, 4:16 am

Yes,i can see it now.In an alternate reality where Archer escaped Berserker and met Gilgamesh on a mountain somewhere near Illya's castle.

Archer:Who are you?
Gilgamesh:I am the king on kings FTW.
Archer:???Whatever man.

*Hears the sound of battling between Saber and Berserker*

Archer:Oh noes!!!My love Saber is getting owned!!!
Gilgamesh:Your Saber!??Imma PWN you for saying that!!
Archer:Wait!Before that,let's save her first.

*Archer begins trace some weapons*

Gilgamesh:Wait!Use this.

*Gilgamesh pulls out a slingshot and pebble from his Gate of Babylon*

Archer:Ehh.....
Gilgamesh:This slingshot and pebble is one of the haxest Noble Phantasm out there.It's almost on the level of my Haxnuma and Saber's Haxalon.
Archer:No shit?Cool.

*Archer grabs the slingshot and shoots the pebble at Berserker*
*It hits Berserker at the spot where Shirou and Saber stab him with Caliburn*
*Berserker talks some shit and dissapears*

Archer:Cool stuff!I didn't know weapons like these exist.

*Archer turns to face Gilgamesh*

Gilgamesh:Yes,and now you die!

*Gilgamesh proceeds to Enuma Archer's ass to oblivion*

Archer:F*** you bishonen!!!

*Archer's body was deostroyed*

Gilgamesh:Stupid!

Now you know the real cause of Archer and Berserker's death in 'Fate'.
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Unread postby Rikh » September 15th, 2008, 5:46 am

GreenSamurai wrote:Yes,i can see it now.In an alternate reality where Archer escaped Berserker and met Gilgamesh on a mountain somewhere near Illya's castle.

Archer:Who are you?
Gilgamesh:I am the king on kings FTW.
Archer:???Whatever man.

*Hears the sound of battling between Saber and Berserker*

Archer:Oh noes!!!My love Saber is getting owned!!!
Gilgamesh:Your Saber!??Imma PWN you for saying that!!
Archer:Wait!Before that,let's save her first.

*Archer begins trace some weapons*

Gilgamesh:Wait!Use this.

*Gilgamesh pulls out a slingshot and pebble from his Gate of Babylon*

Archer:Ehh.....
Gilgamesh:This slingshot and pebble is one of the haxest Noble Phantasm out there.It's almost on the level of my Haxnuma and Saber's Haxalon.
Archer:No shit?Cool.

*Archer grabs the slingshot and shoots the pebble at Berserker*
*It hits Berserker at the spot where Shirou and Saber stab him with Caliburn*
*Berserker talks some shit and dissapears*

Archer:Cool stuff!I didn't know weapons like these exist.

*Archer turns to face Gilgamesh*

Gilgamesh:Yes,and now you die!

*Gilgamesh proceeds to Enuma Archer's ass to oblivion*

Archer:F*** you bishonen!!!

*Archer's body was deostroyed*

Gilgamesh:Stupid!

Now you know the real cause of Archer and Berserker's death in 'Fate'.

impossible. Goldie would have rushed in for saber right after berserker faded away

other than that, me-likes
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Unread postby AvatarofRage » September 15th, 2008, 9:58 am

Hmm...how about not a rock, but a bone. If 2001 A Space Odyssey is anything to go by, the first weapon was a bone used to bludgeon another monkey's head in. Wouldn't that be the primordial uber-hax? And it's true name is HAERGHK!!! After all, the monkey-man screamed it out as he unleashed its true power.
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Unread postby GreenSamurai » September 15th, 2008, 10:11 am

AvatarofRage wrote:Hmm...how about not a rock, but a bone. If 2001 A Space Odyssey is anything to go by, the first weapon was a bone used to bludgeon another monkey's head in. Wouldn't that be the primordial uber-hax? And it's true name is HAERGHK!!! After all, the monkey-man screamed it out as he unleashed its true power.


Another hax weapon!!Give me some time to compose a story for this one..
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Unread postby Raitei » September 15th, 2008, 10:34 am

GreenSamurai wrote:
AvatarofRage wrote:Hmm...how about not a rock, but a bone. If 2001 A Space Odyssey is anything to go by, the first weapon was a bone used to bludgeon another monkey's head in. Wouldn't that be the primordial uber-hax? And it's true name is HAERGHK!!! After all, the monkey-man screamed it out as he unleashed its true power.


Another hax weapon!!Give me some time to compose a story for this one..
... wrong topic (and forum), dude. :|
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Unread postby Nephilm » September 15th, 2008, 2:34 pm

David's sling would be more of an incapacitating NP, seeing as it didn't kill Goliath.

And (HF spoilers)
Shirou kills Berserker several times with a rock
, so a deadly rock might not be that far-fetched. Also, it should be mentioned that Gae Bolg, with its power boosted by runes, is probably capable of killing Berserker.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 15th, 2008, 3:12 pm

Well, the sling didn't kill him outright, but legends can be warped in Nasuverse, ahaha. Also, even a NP that can stun and immobilize is still good. As a NP, the sling will probably grant you auto-head shot.

Shirou didn't kill the corrupted Berserker with the stone axe/sword. It was the Nine Lives that killed Berserker, the stone axe is nothing more than a really durable weapon.
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Unread postby Raitei » September 15th, 2008, 3:40 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Well, the sling didn't kill him outright, but legends can be warped in Nasuverse, ahaha. Also, even a NP that can stun and immobilize is still good. As a NP, the sling will probably grant you auto-head shot.

Shirou didn't kill the corrupted Berserker with the stone axe/sword. It was the Nine Lives that killed Berserker, the stone axe is nothing more than a really durable weapon.
well, shirou used that to download the "shooting hundred heads". it's not like anyone else would be able to do it, though... moreover, black berserker > blinded > lost many lives already, only few are left (if not only one)
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Unread postby Rikh » September 15th, 2008, 8:24 pm

Raitei wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Well, the sling didn't kill him outright, but legends can be warped in Nasuverse, ahaha. Also, even a NP that can stun and immobilize is still good. As a NP, the sling will probably grant you auto-head shot.

Shirou didn't kill the corrupted Berserker with the stone axe/sword. It was the Nine Lives that killed Berserker, the stone axe is nothing more than a really durable weapon.
well, shirou used that to download the "shooting hundred heads". it's not like anyone else would be able to do it, though... moreover, black berserker > blinded > lost many lives already, only few are left (if not only one)

He had ten lives left, shiro hit him with nine lives, then killed him with the 10th strike (with illyas help of course)
at least from what i remember... but thats based off other forums/videos
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Unread postby Kansho » September 15th, 2008, 8:38 pm

Nine Lives didn't necessarily kill... nine lives... And Berserker received a Blackcalibur-blast hit before.


Talking of the sword-axe thing... well, that stone probably carry some kind of conceptual meaning, as it's part of the temple that the Einzbern used as catalyst.
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Unread postby Rikh » September 15th, 2008, 9:07 pm

Kansho wrote:
Nine Lives didn't necessarily kill... nine lives... And Berserker received a Blackcalibur-blast hit before.


Talking of the sword-axe thing... well, that stone probably carry some kind of conceptual meaning, as it's part of the temple that the Einzbern used as catalyst.


Its certainly stronger than your average stone at least though. Berserker could take part of a mountain and still possibly live. So for that rock to stay intact against all those hits, its certainly strong =P
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