Rank and Power (*warning* spoiler galore)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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Unread postby Raitei » September 24th, 2008, 9:14 am

matthewfarenheit wrote:This is obviously true, but we are told in game that Assassin has held his own against every 5th grail servant on his duty of defending the temple's entrance. How could he defend it against berserker? Maybe some help from Caster? Maybe even a trio with Kuzuki? Or he went all solo "Ultimate technique>Ultimate strenght"? This one would be the coolest, yet unnarrated, 5th grail war battle EVER. Why Nasu, why? Crying or Very sad


Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Monohoshi Zao is pretty terrible as a sword, since Sabre bent it with raw strength. Consequently I doubt Tsubame Gaeshi even at its finest can dent God Hand. I agree with Raitei, the situation was probably a weird stalemate, and Ilya got bored. I hazard a guess that, Berzerker couldn't really hit Kojiro because of his high agility and luck, and Kojiro couldn't lay a scratch on Berserker. Ilya didn't want to go all out on a small fry like Kojiro, so she got bored a left.

and what I said before that.
probably a better explanation is that ilya is a childish girl who gets bored easily. she called berserker back after she'd seen no point in continuing the fight any longer.


@rikh : lolwhut? do you think that kojirou can reach ilya that easily? berserker's speed is A, mind you. not very much different from assassin's. the reason why berserker couldn't dodge the rain of nps by gil is because it's a rain. and even if he could, ilya'd be dead. and what good nature? his alignment is neutral evil. and it doesn't state that he won't create collateral damage willingly. (although he mostly won't)
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Unread postby Rikh » September 24th, 2008, 9:23 pm

Raitei wrote:
matthewfarenheit wrote:This is obviously true, but we are told in game that Assassin has held his own against every 5th grail servant on his duty of defending the temple's entrance. How could he defend it against berserker? Maybe some help from Caster? Maybe even a trio with Kuzuki? Or he went all solo "Ultimate technique>Ultimate strenght"? This one would be the coolest, yet unnarrated, 5th grail war battle EVER. Why Nasu, why? Crying or Very sad


Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Monohoshi Zao is pretty terrible as a sword, since Sabre bent it with raw strength. Consequently I doubt Tsubame Gaeshi even at its finest can dent God Hand. I agree with Raitei, the situation was probably a weird stalemate, and Ilya got bored. I hazard a guess that, Berzerker couldn't really hit Kojiro because of his high agility and luck, and Kojiro couldn't lay a scratch on Berserker. Ilya didn't want to go all out on a small fry like Kojiro, so she got bored a left.

and what I said before that.
probably a better explanation is that ilya is a childish girl who gets bored easily. she called berserker back after she'd seen no point in continuing the fight any longer.


@rikh : lolwhut? do you think that kojirou can reach ilya that easily? berserker's speed is A, mind you. not very much different from assassin's. the reason why berserker couldn't dodge the rain of nps by gil is because it's a rain. and even if he could, ilya'd be dead. and what good nature? his alignment is neutral evil. and it doesn't state that he won't create collateral damage willingly. (although he mostly won't)


i got that as an impression from all the scenes ive seen him in. Your probably right about him not being as fast as berserker i assume. Although good-will is not the real correct term. More like he is one of the most honor-holding fighters in fate. He wont resort to dirty tricks or breaking deals to win (from what i saw)
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 25th, 2008, 6:25 am

matthewfarenheit wrote:
Rikh wrote:well this was from Shiro's perspective

Well, it actually was an intermission. Are intermissions (that, AFAIK, are related by a nameless narrator) told from Shirou's perspective?

Let me get some screenshots about this...

EDIT:
Don't tell me that you find coincidental six mortal wounds. Please.


Ah, I finally see what you were talking about, ahahaha. What you have said is certainly a valid interpretation of the scene: six wounds that killed him six times, all present on the body, therefore God Hand is not instant refresh. However, if you read it carefully, not all of them are mortal wounds to a servant. Remember, Sabre got impaled through her chest, but she still retained most of her abilities, and she was still alive. Let's go through all the wounds...

Legs almost melted: This won't kill a servant, heck even a human can survive a little bit with mutilated legs. Servants can regenerate this for sure.

Cut on neck: This maybe can kill him, but remember his Battle Continuation. Unless it is CLEARLY mortal (head falls off), he will most likely not die.

Arm loose: Meh, arms are over-rated.

Slash from shoulder to groin: Again, Battle Continuation, this will not result in instant death.

Blood gushing out of chest: Big deal, Brother Lancer got his heart poked out, he still stayed alive to kill Kotomine and kick Shinji's ass, and all this only cost Lancer one life. Sabre got stabbed IN the chest by a CURSED lance, she stayed alive fine, plus, she ain't got no Battle Continuation!

Internal organs can be see: Organs are over-rated too. Shirou lost a few after taking an axe to the stomach, he regenerated with Avalon, and he did not even have 11 extra lives. Berserker for sure won't die of this.

So as you can see, one can interpret these as non-mortal wounds (for a servant). This is why I thought all the wounds are the results of Archer failing to kill Berserker a 7th time. Berserker then took time to regenerate from these wounds (this falls back to the theory that God Hand does not kick in to heal non-mortal wounds). Again, I may be wrong, Nasu could very well decide that those were the mortal wounds that killed Berserker. I need to review that section of the story. By the way, where is the hero of justice with the saved file in his sig?

Edit: Do you have this part saved? If you do, can you post the context of that screen shot too? No one can argue with original text, if it is stated "these are the six mortal wounds Archer inflicted", then we will all be quiet and stop arguing.
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Unread postby Thares » September 27th, 2008, 5:14 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
Ah, I finally see what you were talking about, ahahaha. What you have said is certainly a valid interpretation of the scene: six wounds that killed him six times, all present on the body, therefore God Hand is not instant refresh. However, if you read it carefully, not all of them are mortal wounds to a servant. Remember, Sabre got impaled through her chest, but she still retained most of her abilities, and she was still alive. Let's go through all the wounds...

Legs almost melted: This won't kill a servant, heck even a human can survive a little bit with mutilated legs. Servants can regenerate this for sure.

Cut on neck: This maybe can kill him, but remember his Battle Continuation. Unless it is CLEARLY mortal (head falls off), he will most likely not die.

Arm loose: Meh, arms are over-rated.

Slash from shoulder to groin: Again, Battle Continuation, this will not result in instant death.

Blood gushing out of chest: Big deal, Brother Lancer got his heart poked out, he still stayed alive to kill Kotomine and kick Shinji's ass, and all this only cost Lancer one life. Sabre got stabbed IN the chest by a CURSED lance, she stayed alive fine, plus, she ain't got no Battle Continuation!

Internal organs can be see: Organs are over-rated too. Shirou lost a few after taking an axe to the stomach, he regenerated with Avalon, and he did not even have 11 extra lives. Berserker for sure won't die of this.

So as you can see, one can interpret these as non-mortal wounds (for a servant). This is why I thought all the wounds are the results of Archer failing to kill Berserker a 7th time. Berserker then took time to regenerate from these wounds (this falls back to the theory that God Hand does not kick in to heal non-mortal wounds). Again, I may be wrong, Nasu could very well decide that those were the mortal wounds that killed Berserker. I need to review that section of the story. By the way, where is the hero of justice with the saved file in his sig?

Edit: Do you have this part saved? If you do, can you post the context of that screen shot too? No one can argue with original text, if it is stated "these are the six mortal wounds Archer inflicted", then we will all be quiet and stop arguing.


No see, Berserker regenerates really fast, so all those wounds would have been way worse when they occured.

His whole body probably got charred and recovered, but his legs were still melty

The cut used to be a lot bigger, with most of his neck severed

I don't know about the arms, I think Nasu ran out of ideas

The giant slash to the groin might have actually almost split him in two.

The blood gushing out of his chest would have been a huge gaping hole, probably with his heart turned into vapour

The organs would have been all ripped up, I think if all the organs stopped working, he would die, after a few seconds anyway (meaning he would have died from it, because the battle didn't happen in 12 seconds)

You know, you'd make a horrible, horrible doctor, if you ever decided to go to medical school, don't.
You'll do the world a favor.
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Unread postby Belzera » September 27th, 2008, 6:55 am

@ Thares
Most Fatal Wounds != Servant Fatal Wounds
Especailly for a Servant who is in a Berserk State, a State that pretty much blanks out everything including Pain, A normal Berserker would keep going until you truely killed him..
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Unread postby Rikh » September 27th, 2008, 5:09 pm

Thares wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:stuff



You know, you'd make a horrible, horrible doctor, if you ever decided to go to medical school, don't.
You'll do the world a favor.


Wow... its like you register to post to get that message across


But seriously you guys are reading too much into this. This arguments getting to the point that people are just registering to post their first message to contribute to the fight

Archer killed berserker to the point where he had 7 lives left. There is nothing else required to know :)
all the other facts are trivial to the outcome of the battle
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Unread postby Thares » September 28th, 2008, 1:20 am

Rikh wrote:
Wow... its like you register to post to get that message across


But seriously you guys are reading too much into this. This arguments getting to the point that people are just registering to post their first message to contribute to the fight

Archer killed berserker to the point where he had 7 lives left. There is nothing else required to know :)
all the other facts are trivial to the outcome of the battle


Actually, I joined in to mock him, because I was bored. I was gonna make fun of his writing, but that would have been mean.
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Unread postby Raitei » September 28th, 2008, 1:45 am

Thares wrote:Actually, I joined in to mock him, because I was bored. I was gonna make fun of his writing, but that would have been mean.
1. You must be over the age of 18. Do not behave in a manner that may be considered "immature." This includes not reading threads before posting, or acting in any way under the age of 18!
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Thares » September 28th, 2008, 3:39 am

Raitei wrote:
Thares wrote:Actually, I joined in to mock him, because I was bored. I was gonna make fun of his writing, but that would have been mean.
1. You must be over the age of 18. Do not behave in a manner that may be considered "immature." This includes not reading threads before posting, or acting in any way under the age of 18!


Funny thing, the forum age restriction is 13 and the forum age restriction is 18. They should really fix that.

I did read the thread, although what I was immature. Well what the hell, since when has poking fun at your buddies ever been a seemingly mature thing to do?

Another thing, I suck at giving first impressions, so please don't judge too much.
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Unread postby Raitei » September 28th, 2008, 4:52 am

Thares wrote:I did read the thread, although what I was immature. Well what the hell, since when has poking fun at your buddies ever been a seemingly mature thing to do?

Another thing, I suck at giving first impressions, so please don't judge too much.
do you think that's funny? if you do, then you must reconsider what's wrong with your brain.

anyway, back to topic. I agree with what belzera said. even without battle continuation, servants will not die from severe wounds or blood loss. not until you destroy the spirit core. (located in the heart and the head)
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Message » September 28th, 2008, 8:01 am

Raitei wrote:
Thares wrote:I did read the thread, although what I was immature. Well what the hell, since when has poking fun at your buddies ever been a seemingly mature thing to do?

Another thing, I suck at giving first impressions, so please don't judge too much.
do you think that's funny? if you do, then you must reconsider what's wrong with your brain.

Stop flaming, Raitei. Also, you don't make policy in these forums. If you see something you think is breaking rules, pm a staff member. Don't go "fix" it yourself. I've warned you about this before, I may not warn you again.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 28th, 2008, 6:04 pm

Mocking me, making fun of me, whatever you do is fine. I joined to express my passion for this great piece of work, not to gauge my intelligence against other faceless forumites online (educational institutions do a better job in this area). However, Thares, some advice on writing argumentative materials. First and foremost, you need to quote or paraphrase original or authoritative materials. For most cases in this forum, that would mean in-game quotes or definitions from Fuyuki. Even if you feel the need to hypothesize, do it on the basis of events that have occurred in-game. Notice in my previous post, I tried my best to quote or extrapolate from events in-game, while your arguments contain none, and are filled with opinionated words such as "probably", "might", "I think", and "if". Arguments in this forum are backed by objective "in-game facts", so please conform.

The reason that I wrote this is not because you disagree with me. Matthewfarenheit strongly disagree with me and does not hesitate to go on the attack, however, I still like and respect him, you know why? He was diligent enough to take screen shots to backup his argument, and he has the courtesy to PM me his opinion and not attacking me personally on the forum like you. Well, all in all, please be courteous, we are all here because we share something in common (Type-Moon), no need to kill someone to prove your undying loyalty to Nasu.

If at this point, the mod has not decided to lock this thread, I would like to support what Raitei and others have said. In the game, it is apparent that servants do not die from wounds that are fatal to humans, and this cannot be attributed entirely to regeneration. Sabre was impaled by Gae Bolg. EVEN missing the heart, such a wound would kill a human. Sabre did not die from it. You may argue she regenerated from it, but she explicitly stated that she could only regenerate what was on the surface, but not the internal damage. Status-wise, Berserker is even stronger than Sabre, so he would be even more resilient. Mere damage to the appendages should not kill him. However, I have no definitive evidence to dismiss Matthewfarenheit's theory. I propose a thought experiment. Matt mentioned in his theory that God Hand does not refresh, but simply allows Berserker to continue living. The wounds would need to be recovered later. So, let's say an attack cut off all Berserker's limbs leaving only the torso and head (not lethal, thus according to Matt this will be God Hand's restoring point), all we need to do is killing the stump that is Berserker 12 times? This does not sound plausible.
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Unread postby Belzera » September 29th, 2008, 1:09 am

Well, considering I don't know much from outside of the Game, I just gathered that God Hand only restores upon Servant-Fatal Wounds/Life Ending Damage rather than just wounds

* Archers fight Took what 7? lives and left Berserker in a bad pyshical state in the Prelude we are shown a slowly healing Berserker, not a Fit condition Berserker. At this point I assumed that Berserker could slowly regenerate lost lives as well
* Rin unleashes Point blank powerful Magic at Berserkers Head - Been a while but I assumed that did a lethal Head destroying Damage that God Hand fixed to allow Berserker to continue fighting

From this two points, I assumed God hand didn't Instantly restore to perfect, but instantly restored to a Minimum Working Order so that Berserkers natural godhood and healing abilities could do their own work.

But as I said I don't know much
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Unread postby shirou12 » October 2nd, 2008, 3:32 am

In my opinion, god hand is like a storage of your life which has a limit of 12 including your present life. So if berserker has been killed 7 times by archer, then god hand will just supply berserker the part of his body which make him killed 7 times thus reducing the storage by seven, meaning the part which made him killed 7 times was regenerated VERY fast or it was repaired instantly from the storage, because if we only say he regenerate then it means that he was not killed but seriously injured.
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Unread postby Rikh » October 2nd, 2008, 10:14 pm

heres a good example that relates to mirrormoon ;)

Berserker is like a Windom with 12 lives in survival mode

Damage will occur to it, but upon death it will fully recover

(if you haven't played windom... be sure to play it!!!! its a free game that pwns)
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Unread postby Brizzle » October 3rd, 2008, 1:37 am

Here's what Type-Moon wiki says about it: http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/God_Hand. This is all we definitely know.

God Hand grants Berserker armor-like skin and 11 automatic resurrections. Servants naturally regenerate, and this process can be hastened by the Master providing prana (some Servants have better regeneration than others, such as Saber or HF5-Caster). HF5-Berserker's Master has LOTS of prana to regenerate him with.

Rikh wrote:Archer killed berserker to the point where he had 7 lives left. There is nothing else required to know :)
all the other facts are trivial to the outcome of the battle
Quoted for truth.
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