Rank and Power (*warning* spoiler galore)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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Unread postby Einherjar » September 20th, 2008, 2:31 am

Kansho wrote:
Raitei wrote:and rho aias is only applicable for"thrown" weapons. :P
Only if you consider Excaliblast a "thrown" weapon...

Shirou, HF route.
Shirou & Rider vs. Black Saber, the real canon fight, not the "sparks liner high" one. Excalibur vs. Bellerephon, Shirou perform a four-layered Rho Aias with his own arm, and protects Rider from Blackcalibur-blast.

Rho Aias defense + Bellerephon innate AC + Magan restraint = Rider wins the NPs clash.

And that allow Shirou to finish Saber with Azoth.

What he said. Heck, Rho Aias is really powerful, its just that it's even more effective against projectiles.

gexer64 wrote:
But just out of curiosity, how would a np that involves more than one hit work? ex assassin's technique, (too lazy to type), nine lives etc. Do they take a life off per hit?

Assasin's katana can't even graze Berserker, so there's no point thinking about it. Nine Lives took Black Berserker out many times, so I don't the why it wouldn't work for normal berserker
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Unread postby Raitei » September 20th, 2008, 5:51 am

gexer64 wrote:
Fuyuki wiki
Taken from the matome site - these are all from official interviews with Kinoko from Comptiq, Dengeki Hime, or Techgian.
Lancer can use his runes and Noble Phantasm together to temporarily raise the rank to A, but it'd still be a very disadvantageous fight but "one with some chances"


also
Fuyuki wiki
Damage taken by Gae Bolg will not be able to be recovered from as long as Gae Bolg continues to exist (not exactly true, but well, close enough: Avalon was able to allow recovery: this also applies to normal mode Gae Bolg).


If he raised the rank, then perhaps it will take off more than one life. Also to take into account is the curse which makes the wounds difficult to heal.
while it's true that gae bolg may be able to take more than one life, the curse is useless. why? because berserker is already dead, and resurrected. and his body will grow resistance towards the cause of his death.
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby gexer64 » September 20th, 2008, 5:11 pm

That's true. But I am curious. If he dies are all he wounds healed immediately? And do curses go away?

Either way it really doesn't matter. Lancer is probably dead.
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Unread postby HeartCard » September 21st, 2008, 6:05 am

No. Berzerker heals all his wounds by regeneration. Thus why after the FIGHTFROMHELLVSARCHER illya had to wait until morning to use Zerk to go hunt down Mr.BonerofhisSword and Rin.

More importantly: Note that Zerker's arm is REMOVED by Caliburn. It stays removed like that.

Although I'm not sure as Zerker did not die after that.

So if Zerker is beheaded...What happens to the head? The body can go running around? Zerker becomes Jack O' Lantern?
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Unread postby Rikh » September 21st, 2008, 6:23 am

HeartCard wrote:No. Berzerker heals all his wounds by regeneration. Thus why after the FIGHTFROMHELLVSARCHER illya had to wait until morning to use Zerk to go hunt down Mr.BonerofhisSword and Rin.

More importantly: Note that Zerker's arm is REMOVED by Caliburn. It stays removed like that.

Although I'm not sure as Zerker did not die after that.

So if Zerker is beheaded...What happens to the head? The body can go running around? Zerker becomes Jack O' Lantern?

i would assume one part of the body would die
Either the head disappears and another one pops on the body, or the body disappears and it pops onto the head

Although Berserker is more along the lines of high speed regeneration. He's like a person with the worlds best (actually much greater...) immune system


Will berserker come back to life after suffering a fatal disease? .... I guess God Hand would prevent future deaths from it. nvm
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » September 21st, 2008, 7:21 am

Rikh wrote:i would assume one part of the body would die
Either the head disappears and another one pops on the body, or the body disappears and it pops onto the head

Although Berserker is more along the lines of high speed regeneration. He's like a person with the worlds best (actually much greater...) immune system


Will berserker come back to life after suffering a fatal disease? .... I guess God Hand would prevent future deaths from it. nvm

We need a Servant that attacks with terminal diseases :lol:

According to the translation, little pieces of Berserker's brain and spinal fluid splatter Shirou and co., so I'd say his head was done for, with an huge hole on it in the very least, if not pretty much gone. So he can restore his head: why didn't his arm regrow is a good question... maybe he needed to die once before restoring it with God Hand's boost, or maybe non-fatal injuries are just ignored by God Hand, and thus he would have to rely on his normal regeneration ability as a Servant (picking his arm up, reattaching it, etc).

Something I'd like to add is this: the same that Avalon's healing powers are more along the lines of restoration than regeneration (stated ingame), Berserker's God Hand seems to work like an automatic restoration that, upon death, restores the body to the previous state just before being killed, and thus avoiding effects such as, y'know, dissappearing in little sparks and all that. Thus, cosmetic things like a lost arm or a burnt face may be left to regenerate by themselves (Servant ability), instead putting priority on reversing the cause of death and only that. So, if you blow Berserker's head most of it would have to be restored in order to Berserker to be alive, but if it's a huge injury to the chest reaching the heart (something along the lines of what Gae Bolg would do) the restoration may just restore the hearth and leave the broken ribs, open wound and everything for the slow, time consuming regeneration. And let's not forget that regeneration in Fate seems to close wounds first and fix the insides later...
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Unread postby Rikh » September 21st, 2008, 7:35 am

matthewfarenheit wrote:
Rikh wrote:i would assume one part of the body would die
Either the head disappears and another one pops on the body, or the body disappears and it pops onto the head

Although Berserker is more along the lines of high speed regeneration. He's like a person with the worlds best (actually much greater...) immune system


Will berserker come back to life after suffering a fatal disease? .... I guess God Hand would prevent future deaths from it. nvm

We need a Servant that attacks with terminal diseases :lol:

According to the translation, little pieces of Berserker's brain and spinal fluid splatter Shirou and co., so I'd say his head was done for, with an huge hole on it in the very least, if not pretty much gone. So he can restore his head: why didn't his arm regrow is a good question... maybe he needed to die once before restoring it with God Hand's boost, or maybe non-fatal injuries are just ignored by God Hand, and thus he would have to rely on his normal regeneration ability as a Servant (picking his arm up, reattaching it, etc).

Something I'd like to add is this: the same that Avalon's healing powers are more along the lines of restoration than regeneration (stated ingame), Berserker's God Hand seems to work like an automatic restoration that, upon death, restores the body to the previous state just before being killed, and thus avoiding effects such as, y'know, dissappearing in little sparks and all that. Thus, cosmetic things like a lost arm or a burnt face may be left to regenerate by themselves (Servant ability), instead putting priority on reversing the cause of death and only that. So, if you blow Berserker's head most of it would have to be restored in order to Berserker to be alive, but if it's a huge injury to the chest reaching the heart (something along the lines of what Gae Bolg would do) the restoration may just restore the hearth and leave the broken ribs, open wound and everything for the slow, time consuming regeneration. And let's not forget that regeneration in Fate seems to close wounds first and fix the insides later...


umm thats mainly how shirou sadly recovers from damage.... he doesnt really have Godhand helping him
Avalon
Um Berserker doesnt regenerate slowly. He lost an arm due to caliburn, but it didnt kill him. Having not lost a life, also in a very short time period... godhand was not in effect. After berserker would have died once, his whole body should have been restored very shortly after.
His arm basically would have regenerated at the same speed his head did after Tohsaka destroyed it with jewels, but since shiro decides to go off on some type of projection spree (which btw was pretty much his first time projecting a sword....) and creates a couple holy swords, Berserker was killed by an attack that could have killed him 7 times
And since berserker doesn't like dying much... he just decided to let the boy have his victory instead of dying 6 more times (no... this statement wasn't serious...)
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » September 21st, 2008, 7:51 am

Rikh wrote:umm thats mainly how shirou sadly recovers from damage.... he doesnt really have Godhand helping him
Avalon
Um Berserker doesnt regenerate slowly. He lost an arm due to caliburn, but it didnt kill him. Having not lost a life, also in a very short time period... godhand was not in effect. After berserker would have died once, his whole body should have been restored very shortly after.
His arm basically would have regenerated at the same speed his head did after Tohsaka destroyed it with jewels, but since shiro decides to go off on some type of projection spree (which btw was pretty much his first time projecting a sword....) and creates a couple holy swords, Berserker was killed by an attack that could have killed him 7 times
And since berserker doesn't like dying much... he just decided to let the boy have his victory instead of dying 6 more times (no... this statement wasn't serious...)

Well, thats exactly what I meant, the only difference in my description and yours being that you say "If killed once, Berserker would also restore his arm as well". God Hand, by my description, would be an "Instant restoration to the moment/state prior to death", while Avalon healing powers fall far below that in speed, but continue to restore up to 100% of the body (altough, of course, cannot restore anything after death).

If your version is true, why is he wounded (and thinking how it would take several days to fully recover) after his fight with Archer? It's obvious that the instant restoration that remade his head in seconds would have closed his wounds at the latest death but the game still describes every mortal wound as still present, altough somehow not so mortal anymore. He relies, by my description, on his regeneration as a Servant to fully regain his health, but in order to recover from death he needs restoration by God Hand, and that happens quite instantaneously, but is quite shallow (although developing resistance to the latest method of slay is a great bonus).
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 22nd, 2008, 1:07 am

From what have occurred in the game, the mechanism of God Hand is simple. It will not kick in until the current life is fully consumed. So, losing an arm is not fatal damage, God Hand does not kick in. Actually that is not entirely true, God Hand is always "on", it is just the resurrection ability does not kick in until the current life is gone. Basically, the God Hand resurrection is like a total system reboot, purging all damage.
Picture it like this: Rin nuked Berserker's head with rank A jewel attack -> Berserker status check=dead -> Activating God Hand

Servant reboot checks
Feet: intact
Torso: intact
Arms: intact
Head: missing

Regenerate head

Execute: Squish Rin to Death
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » September 22nd, 2008, 1:38 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:From what have occurred in the game, the mechanism of God Hand is simple. It will not kick in until the current life is fully consumed. So, losing an arm is not fatal damage, God Hand does not kick in. Actually that is not entirely true, God Hand is always "on", it is just the resurrection ability does not kick in until the current life is gone. Basically, the God Hand resurrection is like a total system reboot, purging all damage.
Picture it like this: Rin nuked Berserker's head with rank A jewel attack -> Berserker status check=dead -> Activating God Hand

Servant reboot checks
Feet: intact
Torso: intact
Arms: intact
Head: missing

Regenerate head

Execute: Squish Rin to Death

So, you also think his arm would have been regenerated if Caliburn didn't take all of his remaining lives? Then whats's the explanation under all of "vs Archer" wounds still remaining and hindering Berserker's performance with Saber? God Hand being selectively lazy?
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Unread postby Rikh » September 22nd, 2008, 1:41 am

matthewfarenheit wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:From what have occurred in the game, the mechanism of God Hand is simple. It will not kick in until the current life is fully consumed. So, losing an arm is not fatal damage, God Hand does not kick in. Actually that is not entirely true, God Hand is always "on", it is just the resurrection ability does not kick in until the current life is gone. Basically, the God Hand resurrection is like a total system reboot, purging all damage.
Picture it like this: Rin nuked Berserker's head with rank A jewel attack -> Berserker status check=dead -> Activating God Hand

Servant reboot checks
Feet: intact
Torso: intact
Arms: intact
Head: missing

Regenerate head

Execute: Squish Rin to Death

So, you also think his arm would have been regenerated if Caliburn didn't take all of his remaining lives? Then whats's the explanation under all of "vs Archer" wounds still remaining and hindering Berserker's performance with Saber? God Hand being selectively lazy?


you cant dig too deeply into this stuff... Any person can exploit a plothole in a minor situation of a storyline.
Just assume archer went Ub3r gar on zerker and caused so much damage that even with god-like recovery, he was not able to fully recover before his match with saber :)
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » September 22nd, 2008, 1:48 am

Rikh wrote:you cant dig too deeply into this stuff... Any person can exploit a plothole in a minor situation of a storyline.
Just assume archer went Ub3r gar on zerker and caused so much damage that even with god-like recovery, he was not able to fully recover before his match with saber :)

Well, my point is that anyone anytime can explain anything from fiction by calling it "plothole", but if it may be explained in a no-nonsensical way, then that explanation should be preferred. Anyways, I get it: I'll head back to my bridge :cry:
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Unread postby Rikh » September 22nd, 2008, 1:51 am

matthewfarenheit wrote:
Rikh wrote:you cant dig too deeply into this stuff... Any person can exploit a plothole in a minor situation of a storyline.
Just assume archer went Ub3r gar on zerker and caused so much damage that even with god-like recovery, he was not able to fully recover before his match with saber :)

Well, my point is that anyone anytime can explain anything from fiction by calling it "plothole", but if it may be explained in a no-nonsensical way, then that explanation should be preferred. Anyways, I get it: I'll head back to my bridge :cry:

nah i didnt mean it as an insult to you, although it probably came out that way, sorry :wink:
although i have to say, the Jap f/sn forums must be 10x more hardcore fact wise than here.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 22nd, 2008, 2:23 am

matthewfarenheit wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:From what have occurred in the game, the mechanism of God Hand is simple. It will not kick in until the current life is fully consumed. So, losing an arm is not fatal damage, God Hand does not kick in. Actually that is not entirely true, God Hand is always "on", it is just the resurrection ability does not kick in until the current life is gone. Basically, the God Hand resurrection is like a total system reboot, purging all damage.
Picture it like this: Rin nuked Berserker's head with rank A jewel attack -> Berserker status check=dead -> Activating God Hand

Servant reboot checks
Feet: intact
Torso: intact
Arms: intact
Head: missing

Regenerate head

Execute: Squish Rin to Death

So, you also think his arm would have been regenerated if Caliburn didn't take all of his remaining lives? Then whats's the explanation under all of "vs Archer" wounds still remaining and hindering Berserker's performance with Saber? God Hand being selectively lazy?


Well, what you described does not contradict my theory. It could be that Archer took 6 lives, but did not succeed in taking out the 7th life. However, Archer did beat up Berserker pretty bad, so Berserker needed the time to patch up his current 7th life, as God Hand does not repair non-fatal damage.
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » September 23rd, 2008, 3:42 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Well, what you described does not contradict my theory. It could be that Archer took 6 lives, but did not succeed in taking out the 7th life. However, Archer did beat up Berserker pretty bad, so Berserker needed the time to patch up his current 7th life, as God Hand does not repair non-fatal damage.

I already said that all of his mortal wounds are described as still present ingame (with details on every one of them, altough we can only guess which NPs did Archer in order to cause them), and this is a fact. They, somehow, are not mortal anymore (another fact) and are slowly regenerating (another fact). I welcome any theory, but they must take in account these premises. And yeah, right now I'm being mean :twisted: :D
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Unread postby Rikh » September 23rd, 2008, 10:04 pm

matthewfarenheit wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Well, what you described does not contradict my theory. It could be that Archer took 6 lives, but did not succeed in taking out the 7th life. However, Archer did beat up Berserker pretty bad, so Berserker needed the time to patch up his current 7th life, as God Hand does not repair non-fatal damage.

I already said that all of his mortal wounds are described as still present ingame (with details on every one of them, altough we can only guess which NPs did Archer in order to cause them), and this is a fact. They, somehow, are not mortal anymore (another fact) and are slowly regenerating (another fact). I welcome any theory, but they must take in account these premises. And yeah, right now I'm being mean :twisted: :D


well this was from Shiro's perspective

The game revolves around his opinion of mortal wounds. Servants truly cannot be killed easily unless assured by being obliterated (haxcaliblast ftw), or having their heart or brain pierced. they can die by other methods, but its really hard to kill one without doing that alone. (in f/ha lancer got demolished pretty badly...
missing a huge portion of his upper body from a np
yet he still lived long enough to talk a few seconds

anywho... the point im getting at is that, berserkers wounds might have been mortal on a human, but were not truly on a servant. Berserker was in the process of healing them, since thats one of his stronger traits
imho atleast
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » September 23rd, 2008, 11:05 pm

Rikh wrote:well this was from Shiro's perspective

Well, it actually was an intermission. Are intermissions (that, AFAIK, are related by a nameless narrator) told from Shirou's perspective?

Let me get some screenshots about this...

EDIT:
Don't tell me that you find coincidental six mortal wounds. Please.
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Unread postby Belzera » September 24th, 2008, 12:08 am

matthewfarenheit wrote:
Rikh wrote:well this was from Shiro's perspective

Well, it actually was an intermission. Are intermissions (that, AFAIK, are related by a nameless narrator) told from Shirou's perspective?

Let me get some screenshots about this...

EDIT:
Don't tell me that you find coincidental six mortal wounds. Please.


Bah they're only flesh wounds he can still fight

edit:

Enough Monty Python jokes none of those wounds are God Hand Activating wounds considering God Hand was restoring lives not Beserker's body at the time since we are told that Archer did a fairly decent job of holding Berserker back if only for a short time.

What I consider God Hand activating Wounds are wounds that cuase instant Death, each one of those are serious wounds but none of them especially on a servant would cuase instant death
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » September 24th, 2008, 3:28 am

I... give up. I cannot force my view on your collective troaths, neither I can accept your views as more logical. I won't discuss this particular topic any further.

Anyways:
Einherjar wrote:Assasin's katana can't even graze Berserker, so there's no point thinking about it.

This is obviously true, but we are told in game that Assassin has held his own against every 5th grail servant on his duty of defending the temple's entrance. How could he defend it against berserker? Maybe some help from Caster? Maybe even a trio with Kuzuki? Or he went all solo "Ultimate technique>Ultimate strenght"? This one would be the coolest, yet unnarrated, 5th grail war battle EVER. Why Nasu, why? :cry:
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Unread postby Rikh » September 24th, 2008, 4:42 am

matthewfarenheit wrote:I... give up. I cannot force my view on your collective troaths, neither I can accept your views as more logical. I won't discuss this particular topic any further.

Anyways:
Einherjar wrote:Assasin's katana can't even graze Berserker, so there's no point thinking about it.

This is obviously true, but we are told in game that Assassin has held his own against every 5th grail servant on his duty of defending the temple's entrance. How could he defend it against berserker? Maybe some help from Caster? Maybe even a trio with Kuzuki? Or he went all solo "Ultimate technique>Ultimate strenght"? This one would be the coolest, yet unnarrated, 5th grail war battle EVER. Why Nasu, why? :cry:



Well answering the initial statement:
that was the post-archer fight correct? Well Berserker did die there, and he was in the process of regenerating. Godhand doesnt make him literally pop back to life after all :D

now the second statement. Assassin definitely cannot beat berserker since he lacks the amount of power required to truly damage him. His amazing technique would only destroy his sword if used against that giant as well. However since assassin is especially remarkable with his longsword, he can easily win a defensive battle with almost any servant (gilgamesh is a maybe though... that ones tough... Although a funny doujin manga had assassin kill gilgamesh, and he bragged to everyone, while nobody cared XD)
Assassin couldnt directly block berserkers attacks, but his pure swordsmanship skills allowed him to endure a battle and prevent Berserker from entering the compound as well. This is when illya just got bored probably, and called berserker back

Although i think assassin could beat berserker if he went for illya, he is definitely fast and able enough to do so, although his good-nature wouldn't allow him to do it probably =P
(for the rest.... He has already beaten archer in h2h combat, caster controls him, he fended off saber, and he definitely could hold his own against lancer since his pure sword skill is probably above sabers)
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