Rank and Power (*warning* spoiler galore)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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Unread postby kensain » September 17th, 2008, 8:27 am

It's stronger because it ~has~ to be stronger.
Srssly. Can you see berzerker fighting with his fists after slashing Archer's broked phantasm in UBW?

I can bet you if a faker decided to trace Tsubame Gaeshi, it'd become invincible as well.
Because it'd look bloody lame for it to break on the first two hits.
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Unread postby GreenSamurai » September 17th, 2008, 4:09 pm

kensain wrote:It's stronger because it ~has~ to be stronger.
Srssly. Can you see berzerker fighting with his fists after slashing Archer's broked phantasm in UBW?

I can bet you if a faker decided to trace Tsubame Gaeshi, it'd become invincible as well.
Because it'd look bloody lame for it to break on the first two hits.


how do you trace Tsubame Gaeshi?It's a move name and not a sword name
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Unread postby Raitei » September 17th, 2008, 4:19 pm

GreenSamurai wrote:
kensain wrote:It's stronger because it ~has~ to be stronger.
Srssly. Can you see berzerker fighting with his fists after slashing Archer's broked phantasm in UBW?

I can bet you if a faker decided to trace Tsubame Gaeshi, it'd become invincible as well.
Because it'd look bloody lame for it to break on the first two hits.


how do you trace Tsubame Gaeshi?It's a move name and not a sword name
just trace monohoshizao, then. the process is the same as downloading nine lives.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 18th, 2008, 5:14 am

Tsubame Gaeshi is a formidable technique, but I am not sure about the sword itself. At its perfect condition, it was warped after being bashed by Sabre. Considering tracing lower the rank of the weapon by one, it will have a even worse performance when colliding with another NP. However, since the weapon contains a lot more than Tsubame Gaeshi, Archer/Shirou will temporarily gain Assasin's swordsmanship and grace, it may not be a total lost to trace it.

It is really interesting to see, despite Archer's ability to copy and download skills, he settled with Kansho and Byakuya as his favorite. They are mediocre normally, even the overedge mode is far from the EX rank arsenals of other heroic spirits. It will be great if Nasu can write a side story about how he encountered/acquired them, and what made him become so attached to them (probably has some relationship with the original Chinese legend, but a Nasu-rized version will probably be interesting, too).
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » September 18th, 2008, 6:05 am

AFAIK, Monoshizao isn't even a NP, but a common weapon, albeit a very good, fine crafted one. If my memory isn't playing tricks on me, this is stated on UBW, at the second Saber vs Assassin duel. That's why Assassin avoids to directly hit Saber's Excalibur: simply grasping it resulted in a bent sword.
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Unread postby Raitei » September 18th, 2008, 7:00 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Tsubame Gaeshi is a formidable technique, but I am not sure about the sword itself. At its perfect condition, it was warped after being bashed by Sabre. Considering tracing lower the rank of the weapon by one, it will have a even worse performance when colliding with another NP. However, since the weapon contains a lot more than Tsubame Gaeshi, Archer/Shirou will temporarily gain Assasin's swordsmanship and grace, it may not be a total lost to trace it.

It is really interesting to see, despite Archer's ability to copy and download skills, he settled with Kansho and Byakuya as his favorite. They are mediocre normally, even the overedge mode is far from the EX rank arsenals of other heroic spirits. It will be great if Nasu can write a side story about how he encountered/acquired them, and what made him become so attached to them (probably has some relationship with the original Chinese legend, but a Nasu-rized version will probably be interesting, too).
you're underestimating saber. monohoshizao was bent not because it's "weak" (and I mean, literally weak) , but because saber is THAT strong. do you want to know why?
fuyuki wiki wrote:Prana Burst - The raising of stats by soaking one's weapon or body with magic energy and immediately expelling it. A jet burst using magic energy.
A: Used in defense and movement. A normal weapon without powerful protection will be unable to withstand an attack by her and will probably be destroyed in one blow. Probably what is used to heal herself. (Saber)
A: Magic energy covers body without needing to will it to. Raises defense several times. (Black Saber)
Example 1: Busting Avenger's swords easily.
Example 2: Extra armor on Black Saber
.


kansho and bakuya were his favorite, probably because he was fascinated by the idea behind their creation, just like shirou. also, slight boost in status will be achieved simply by equipping them.
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Unread postby Brizzle » September 18th, 2008, 7:08 am

Kansho and Bakuya are most compatible with Archer's fighting style in addition to the simple fact that he likes them. He can fight better with them than he could with a more powerful sword because he is just more skilled with them. For example:
When Shiro fights Black Saber in HF and nearly wins.


If a simple rock accumulated a legend over centuries and was lauded as a powerful weapon of unparalleled power, then I imagine it could become a noble phantasm and potentially hurt Berserker. And it is possible to destroy Berserker with a single attack if it is powerful enough. If Saber could have charged Excalibur up to its most powerful level, a single attack would have killed Berserker all 12 times.
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Unread postby Rikh » September 18th, 2008, 3:50 pm

Brizzle wrote:Kansho and Bakuya are most compatible with Archer's fighting style in addition to the simple fact that he likes them. He can fight better with them than he could with a more powerful sword because he is just more skilled with them. For example:
When Shiro fights Black Saber in HF and nearly wins.


If a simple rock accumulated a legend over centuries and was lauded as a powerful weapon of unparalleled power, then I imagine it could become a noble phantasm and potentially hurt Berserker. And it is possible to destroy Berserker with a single attack if it is powerful enough. If Saber could have charged Excalibur up to its most powerful level, a single attack would have killed Berserker all 12 times.


no i doubt that. At the bad end during fate (when shiro, saber, and rin fight berserker) saber tries to kill berserker with excaliblast. Sadly she didn't use full power on it because she couldn't supply it.... But illya stated that even at full power, it probably could have only killed berserker around 2-3 times


now don't ask how Caliburn did it... Shiro had a pretty amazing weapon concept when he traced it, if you ask me.....


But yah, if the rock had a legend like. (The one who throws this rock shall pierce the hearts of 12 men) then it will work like a Gae Bolg on Hax mode.
MAYBE that rock could beat berserker on the first try ;) Also its a good thing that berserker isnt a woman, because the rock would not work then =P

Gae Bolg might help kill berserker though... Because its affect might conflict with God Hand, and it might be allowed through because of Gae Bolgs inability to miss.
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Unread postby Raitei » September 18th, 2008, 4:31 pm

Rikh wrote:no i doubt that. At the bad end during fate (when shiro, saber, and rin fight berserker) saber tries to kill berserker with excaliblast. Sadly she didn't use full power on it because she couldn't supply it.... But illya stated that even at full power, it probably could have only killed berserker around 2-3 times
you expect to believe that from 12 year old kid who is just but taunting and ridiculing her enemies?
(yeah, she may be 18, but she's still 12 if you ask me)
please, how many people in this world would admit that someone can defeat him/her if only the situation was different while in fact s/he wins? moreover, if it's someone like ilya? heck, even she was shocked at the fact that berserker COULD be killed.

Rikh wrote:Gae Bolg might help kill berserker though... Because its affect might conflict with God Hand, and it might be allowed through because of Gae Bolgs inability to miss.
definitely. but would it finish off more than 1? I doubt it.
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Unread postby Brizzle » September 18th, 2008, 5:41 pm

Rikh wrote:no i doubt that. At the bad end during fate (when shiro, saber, and rin fight berserker) saber tries to kill berserker with excaliblast. Sadly she didn't use full power on it because she couldn't supply it.... But illya stated that even at full power, it probably could have only killed berserker around 2-3 times


now don't ask how Caliburn did it... Shiro had a pretty amazing weapon concept when he traced it, if you ask me.....

Type-Moon Wiki suggests that the Caliburn that Shiro projected had stored prana within it. Now, we don't know for sure the rank of Caliburn, but we can assume that it is at least A+ (the weapon loses a rank when projected and greater than B rank is required to penetrate God Hand). So, if Shiro killed Berserker 7 times with a B+ rank attack (with a lot of stored prana), then I will assume that an actual A++ ranked Excalibur (fully charged, of course) would be enough to take him out the required 12. Remember, a rank of A++ is several times greater than a rank of just A. But, we don't have definitive proof either way, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. :wink:
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Unread postby Rikh » September 19th, 2008, 5:25 am

Raitei wrote:
Rikh wrote:no i doubt that. At the bad end during fate (when shiro, saber, and rin fight berserker) saber tries to kill berserker with excaliblast. Sadly she didn't use full power on it because she couldn't supply it.... But illya stated that even at full power, it probably could have only killed berserker around 2-3 times
you expect to believe that from 12 year old kid who is just but taunting and ridiculing her enemies?
(yeah, she may be 18, but she's still 12 if you ask me)
please, how many people in this world would admit that someone can defeat him/her if only the situation was different while in fact s/he wins? moreover, if it's someone like ilya? heck, even she was shocked at the fact that berserker COULD be killed.

Just quoting the game.. Sabers excaliblast assumingly would have been around 10% power then. I'm at least pretty sure it wouldn't take out nine of his lives.
Raitei wrote:
Rikh wrote:Gae Bolg might help kill berserker though... Because its affect might conflict with God Hand, and it might be allowed through because of Gae Bolgs inability to miss.
definitely. but would it finish off more than 1? I doubt it.

Depends if the ability of Gae Bolg overrides the ability of God Hand. Also based off how much prana Lancer could use i would guess
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Unread postby Raitei » September 19th, 2008, 6:12 am

Rikh wrote:Just quoting the game.. Sabers excaliblast assumingly would have been around 10% power then. I'm at least pretty sure it wouldn't take out nine of his lives.
... again, we're dealing with powerlevels here. if an rpg could destroy a tank, then how about a nuclear missile?
caliburn has its BIG penalty for being lowered to a fancy decoration/

Rikh wrote:
Raitei wrote:
Rikh wrote:Gae Bolg might help kill berserker though... Because its affect might conflict with God Hand, and it might be allowed through because of Gae Bolgs inability to miss.
definitely. but would it finish off more than 1? I doubt it.

Depends if the ability of Gae Bolg overrides the ability of God Hand. Also based off how much prana Lancer could use i would guess
striking death flight would most likely do, but impaling barbed death... no. and god hand will develop resistance against it, speaking of which.
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Unread postby Rikh » September 19th, 2008, 9:15 am

Raitei wrote:
Rikh wrote:Just quoting the game.. Sabers excaliblast assumingly would have been around 10% power then. I'm at least pretty sure it wouldn't take out nine of his lives.
... again, we're dealing with powerlevels here. if an rpg could destroy a tank, then how about a nuclear missile?
caliburn has its BIG penalty for being lowered to a fancy decoration/

hai hai....

Raitei wrote:
Rikh wrote:
Raitei wrote:[quote="Rikh"]Gae Bolg might help kill berserker though... Because its affect might conflict with God Hand, and it might be allowed through because of Gae Bolgs inability to miss.
definitely. but would it finish off more than 1? I doubt it.

Depends if the ability of Gae Bolg overrides the ability of God Hand. Also based off how much prana Lancer could use i would guess
striking death flight would most likely do, but impaling barbed death... no. and god hand will develop resistance against it, speaking of which.[/quote]

God hand developing resistance to a normal weapon is one thing. But Gae Bolg automatically pierces a persons heart when thrown. God hand would initially deflect it, but Gae Bolg's effect would cause the spear to always end up in the heart regardless of the defense
although apparently Rhio Alias (or however its spelt...) has a pretty decent resistance against it
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Unread postby Raitei » September 19th, 2008, 9:29 am

that doesn't matter. he can be stabbed in the heart, and whenever the spear stabs it grows barbs or whatever else; berserker would not die from the same move TWICE. unless one move can take several lives like caliburn did...

and rho aias is only applicable for"thrown" weapons. :P
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Unread postby Kansho » September 19th, 2008, 11:56 am

Raitei wrote:and rho aias is only applicable for"thrown" weapons. :P
Only if you consider Excaliblast a "thrown" weapon...
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Unread postby kensain » September 19th, 2008, 12:54 pm

Well it's really a question of whether gae bolg's "Always kill with a heart-stab" rule is better than berzerkers "Don't die from the next heart-stab"

As far as I know they've never been in conflict with each other.
So it's anyone's guess.

And I'm pretty sure that Aius works against beams. It just gets bonuses vs throwing.
And the thing moves at mach 2, and has enough power to nearly blow an arm off, AFTER being blocked.

I don't care what you say, that doesn't ressemble a throw in any way :wink:
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Unread postby Raitei » September 19th, 2008, 3:22 pm

Kansho wrote:
Raitei wrote:and rho aias is only applicable for"thrown" weapons. :P
Only if you consider Excaliblast a "thrown" weapon...
oh, this is news to me. when did someone use it? :shock:
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Unread postby Zensunni » September 19th, 2008, 4:25 pm

Well, the beam weapons in FSN are both so superior in power and rank that Rho Aius couldn't block them no matter if the attacks are considered thrown or not. It might block something like caster's magic beams, though they'd still explode and throw the shield's wielder around like a ragdoll. Maybe it's not that the shield gets bonuses against throwing weapons, it's just not practical against anything else.
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Unread postby Kansho » September 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm

Raitei wrote:oh, this is news to me. when did someone use it? :shock:
Shirou, HF route.
Shirou & Rider vs. Black Saber, the real canon fight, not the "sparks liner high" one. Excalibur vs. Bellerephon, Shirou perform a four-layered Rho Aias with his own arm, and protects Rider from Blackcalibur-blast.

Rho Aias defense + Bellerephon innate AC + Magan restraint = Rider wins the NPs clash.

And that allow Shirou to finish Saber with Azoth.
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Unread postby gexer64 » September 20th, 2008, 2:16 am

Fuyuki wiki
Taken from the matome site - these are all from official interviews with Kinoko from Comptiq, Dengeki Hime, or Techgian.
Lancer can use his runes and Noble Phantasm together to temporarily raise the rank to A, but it'd still be a very disadvantageous fight but "one with some chances"


also
Fuyuki wiki
Damage taken by Gae Bolg will not be able to be recovered from as long as Gae Bolg continues to exist (not exactly true, but well, close enough: Avalon was able to allow recovery: this also applies to normal mode Gae Bolg).


If he raised the rank, then perhaps it will take off more than one life. Also to take into account is the curse which makes the wounds difficult to heal.

But just out of curiosity, how would a np that involves more than one hit work? ex assassin's technique, (too lazy to type), nine lives etc. Do they take a life off per hit?
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