Couple of UBW questions

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Unread postby Zensunni » August 19th, 2008, 10:04 pm

How stupid. How can a single slash kill seven times. :P I'm sticking with my "assured victory is an effect as well as a title" -theory. :P
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Unread postby DarkRedSky » August 20th, 2008, 12:29 am

Names can be tricky things. I don't think Caliburn being the sword of "assured" victory had anything to do with killing beserker. Let's just say it was a really powerful sword after all when people think King Arthur they think sword in the stone (which is Caliburn, but most people also connect him with Excalibur too).
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Unread postby that one guy » August 20th, 2008, 1:17 am

Wasn't it supposed to be that when Shirou created Caliburn it still had some of the power in it. It had so much power, in fact, that it killed Berserker...7 times? I'm not sure on the number, but it killed him a lot. It even had so much power and experience that it was able to keep Shirou alive as he battled Berserker. Unless I'm mixing things up again....
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Unread postby Catastrophe » August 20th, 2008, 1:56 am

that one guy wrote:Wasn't it supposed to be that when Shirou created Caliburn it still had some of the power in it. It had so much power, in fact, that it killed Berserker...7 times? I'm not sure on the number, but it killed him a lot. It even had so much power and experience that it was able to keep Shirou alive as he battled Berserker. Unless I'm mixing things up again....
hrmmmm...
i remember something along those lines as well. I remember he traced ->something<- that would kill him enough times. and ended in the form of Caliburn because he thought of a sword beautiful enough for Saber, and he have already seen it (Caliburn) on dreams.

but, as that one guy(lol), i could be mixing things up :roll:
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Unread postby DarkRedSky » August 20th, 2008, 2:06 am

Catastrophe wrote:
that one guy wrote:Wasn't it supposed to be that when Shirou created Caliburn it still had some of the power in it. It had so much power, in fact, that it killed Berserker...7 times? I'm not sure on the number, but it killed him a lot. It even had so much power and experience that it was able to keep Shirou alive as he battled Berserker. Unless I'm mixing things up again....
hrmmmm...
i remember something along those lines as well. I remember he traced ->something<- that would kill him enough times. and ended in the form of Caliburn because he thought of a sword beautiful enough for Saber, and he have already seen it (Caliburn) on dreams.

but, as that one guy(lol), i could be mixing things up :roll:


No you're right. He traced Caliburn cause he had constant dreams of it and he thought it was a pity that Saber had lost it.
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Unread postby Rikh » August 20th, 2008, 4:38 pm

But seriously... Archer could have totally traced a better version of caliburn for saber from the beginning. (except the hate against shirou part which could prevent such team working acts...)
Also archer is able to use Excalibur. If you remember the threat from UBW, he can trace a near perfect form of it an use its NP.
So Saber + archer = Annihilation of berserker instead of Saber + Shirou = assured victory

Also being fueled with mana from Rin, i am sure archer could beat beserker by doing nine lives np (although it would take one life) Kansho + byakua overedge, using Caliburn and Excalibur, Caladbolg overload (which would at least do damage). Plus many other B-A rank NP he could possibly have in a collection.
Archer is basically the same as gilgamesh in terms. Although he requires more concentration to fight outside a reality marble, inside he could just spam sword rains.

(also archer could just totally use rulebreaker to break beserkers contract with illya.......... which would make him disappear almost immediately due to the high many cost...)
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Unread postby gexer64 » August 20th, 2008, 7:08 pm

Rikh wrote:(also archer could just totally use rulebreaker to break beserkers contract with illya.......... which would make him disappear almost immediately due to the high many cost...)


If he did this he would most likely have to aim at Illya instead, since berserker's np would negate it. He wasn't about to do that since he was still attached to her from his time line.

I have wondered why archer didn't use nine lives. But by looking at it, berseker would probably kill archer before he could get that attack off.

Unless of course he can trace Enkidu. Can he trace Enkidu?
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Unread postby supremehyren » August 20th, 2008, 8:36 pm

Can't use Enkidu, as it's a chain, not a sword. Can't use Nine Lives, either, because Shirou apparently got it by accident when tracing Berserker's axe-sword, so Archer wouldn't know about it. He would never be able to get close enough to Ilya to use Rule Breaker, either.

Caliburn killing Berserker 7 times (1 more than his 6 lives) is confirmed by Nasu, somewhere.

Anyways, Archer is able to kill Berserker six times, as he did in the Fate route. He didn't use Caliburn at all during the fight, or it wouldn't have worked for Shirou/Saber, as Berserker gains a resistance to things that kill him once. Therefore, if Archer had used Caliburn, he could have taken 13 of Berserker's lives in total. This is why I assume he lost on purpose, in order to help Shirou become stronger by learning about projection.
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Unread postby Einherjar » August 20th, 2008, 8:54 pm

supremehyren wrote:Can't use Enkidu, as it's a chain, not a sword.

Yeah, but he is able to trace shields, cloths, and soccer balls, right?
Maybe he is just able to trace non mechanical items, and swords are just a special attribute. In any case, even raining noble phantasms is more than enough to destroy berserker 6 times, that I agree with you there.
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Unread postby twilightlegacy » August 20th, 2008, 9:26 pm

Catastrophe wrote:
that one guy wrote:Wasn't it supposed to be that when Shirou created Caliburn it still had some of the power in it. It had so much power, in fact, that it killed Berserker...7 times? I'm not sure on the number, but it killed him a lot. It even had so much power and experience that it was able to keep Shirou alive as he battled Berserker. Unless I'm mixing things up again....
hrmmmm...
i remember something along those lines as well. I remember he traced ->something<- that would kill him enough times. and ended in the form of Caliburn because he thought of a sword beautiful enough for Saber, and he have already seen it (Caliburn) on dreams.

but, as that one guy(lol), i could be mixing things up :roll:


i remember something like that too.

I remember that, in the anime, archer told shirou that, since he cannot defeat beserker, imagine something that can beat berserker. shirou, therefore, traced caliburn with the thought that it was definitely superior to berserker. therefore, it overkilled berserker because shirou incorporated into his traced caliburn the concept that the sword is superior to berserker.

well, at least that's how my idea goes. and, after all,it's from the anime. can't quite remember if it was in the visual novel so there's a good chance i'm wrong.
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Unread postby that one guy » August 20th, 2008, 9:47 pm

I'm almost positive the entire time in the Fate route that Archer is alive, he tells Shirou that "Emiya Shirou's only enemy is himself. If you can not defeat an enemy, think of something that can."
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Unread postby Raitei » August 21st, 2008, 12:26 am

Einherjar wrote:
supremehyren wrote:Can't use Enkidu, as it's a chain, not a sword.

Yeah, but he is able to trace shields, cloths, and soccer balls, right?
Maybe he is just able to trace non mechanical items, and swords are just a special attribute. In any case, even raining noble phantasms is more than enough to destroy berserker 6 times, that I agree with you there.
enkidu's material is a bit... different, I suppose. because that's a "chain that binds god". I don't think the material exists in earth, just like ea.

that one guy wrote:I'm almost positive the entire time in the Fate route that Archer is alive, he tells Shirou that "Emiya Shirou's only enemy is himself. If you can not defeat an enemy, think of something that can."
he did. precisely.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 21st, 2008, 3:35 am

Do not be unsatisfied with Archer. Archer is a nobody, and such a "nobody" servant defeated a demigod not only once, but six times. His status was no match for Berserker, his master was not present (while berserker's master is a homunculus tailored to be a master), and he had to discover and gauge his opponents ability as he fight. However, with all these adverse conditions, he still managed to slay Berserker six times. Quoting Ilya, "Losing six lives to just one servant? Just who is he?" Nothing states the truth better than this.
Last edited by Keeper of Gil's Vault on August 21st, 2008, 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby that one guy » August 21st, 2008, 3:36 am

Sort of off topic, but what do you think Illya's reaction would be if she found out who Archer was?
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Unread postby gexer64 » August 21st, 2008, 5:04 am

that one guy wrote:Sort of off topic, but what do you think Illya's reaction would be if she found out who Archer was?


Shoot herself. In the head. With a gun. Specifically Kiritsugu's anti-mage gun o death. Then the universe would collapse upon itself, causing gasoline prices to plummet. Also free ice cream for everyone.

But honestly, Illya would probably give him a crueler fate than just dying.
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Unread postby DarkRedSky » August 21st, 2008, 4:07 pm

gexer64 wrote:
that one guy wrote:Sort of off topic, but what do you think Illya's reaction would be if she found out who Archer was?


Shoot herself. In the head. With a gun. Specifically Kiritsugu's anti-mage gun o death. Then the universe would collapse upon itself, causing gasoline prices to plummet. Also free ice cream for everyone.

But honestly, Illya would probably give him a crueler fate than just dying.


The gas price plummet and free ice cream sound good.
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Unread postby Einherjar » August 21st, 2008, 4:31 pm

Zensunni wrote:How stupid. How can a single slash kill seven times. :P I'm sticking with my "assured victory is an effect as well as a title" -theory. :P

It's said in the game that weapons that have greater mystery / concept than god hand (not rank. concept) can negate god hand to a certain extent (thus taking more than 1 life).
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Unread postby Zensunni » August 21st, 2008, 9:31 pm

Einherjar wrote:
Zensunni wrote:How stupid. How can a single slash kill seven times. :P I'm sticking with my "assured victory is an effect as well as a title" -theory. :P

It's said in the game that weapons that have greater mystery / concept than god hand (not rank. concept) can negate god hand to a certain extent (thus taking more than 1 life).


Yes, yes that's what has been said over and over here. But it's not a very good explanation. Weapons are not designed to "take many lives" from targets. Once you kill them they're dead, that is usually the case. Yet berserker is resurrected after being killed. That's why Caliburn must have an absurd ability, like "I hit with you with this, and victory is assured" That's how I see it anyway.
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Unread postby Einherjar » August 21st, 2008, 11:55 pm

Berserker doesn't have 13lives, the NP does. and Caliburn can negate god hand to a certain extent (meaning god hand won't work fully), thus meaning cancels out some. It's not like caliburn is meant to take out 7 lives or anything, it's just that it happens to enough to negate to that extent. Caliburn didn't take out 7 because it's strong (it isn't really, and a traced version is even weaker), but because just kills berserker once, and made godhand stop working. I'm sure you can understand that.
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Unread postby gexer64 » August 22nd, 2008, 3:52 am

Einherjar wrote:Berserker doesn't have 13lives, the NP does. and Caliburn can negate god hand to a certain extent (meaning god hand won't work fully), thus meaning cancels out some. It's not like caliburn is meant to take out 7 lives or anything, it's just that it happens to enough to negate to that extent. Caliburn didn't take out 7 because it's strong (it isn't really, and a traced version is even weaker), but because just kills berserker once, and made godhand stop working. I'm sure you can understand that.


Wouldn't that mean that the sword that was the blueprint for caliburn (that goldylocks had) would take even more lives away?
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