Couple of UBW questions

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Unread postby Anium » August 15th, 2008, 11:34 pm

Well, if rin had confidence in archer, she could have used a command spell to teleport him while on battle to save him... That was my first thought when I read that part.
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Unread postby Rikh » August 16th, 2008, 4:43 pm

or rin could have used a command spell making archer unveil his true identity since the beginning :)
also could have used it to force him to fight berserker at his hardest, and retreat right before defeat
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 17th, 2008, 4:47 am

At the time of the Archer vs Berzerker battle, Rin has one command mantra left. Using the last mantra will dissolve the contract, so I suspect it may turn into a situation similar to that in UBW: Archer goes rogue and tries to kill Shirou. Furthermore, the Shirou in this case is even weaker than that of UBW, and Sabre is on the verge of disappearing. As Archer's goal is to kill Shirou, he can just bail out of the Berzerker fight after the contract is gone, eliminate Shirou and let Berzerker kill him, or accompany Rin to finish the Grail War (if he wants to serve her without a contract).
I am just thinking out loud... lol
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Unread postby Rikh » August 17th, 2008, 4:50 am

if you used the last command spell saying "never kill me" would it be a total waste?
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Unread postby AlinSabel » August 17th, 2008, 5:17 am

They could still put you into a coma. <_> And just get in your way...
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 17th, 2008, 8:10 pm

Paraphrase Mistress Tosaka,
Long term commands are ineffective when using command mantra... so, you will still die of Kansho to the head...
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Unread postby DarkRedSky » August 17th, 2008, 9:09 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Paraphrase Mistress Tosaka,
Long term commands are ineffective when using command mantra... so, you will still die of Kansho to the head...


Not ineffective, just less effective. As in you might get killed if the guy uses all his power to do so, but it'll limit the servants ability to kill the said target, making it easier for the target to get away and if the target is a servant win the fight.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 18th, 2008, 2:46 am

That is for an exceptional magus like Rin only. Rin's "obey me" command has a somewhat effective result because she is a quite powerful magus, a run-of-the-mill magus giving the same command will have close to no binding effect. I am pretty much paraphrasing Archer here, so source cited.
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Unread postby gexer64 » August 18th, 2008, 6:38 am

Isn't it possible for a weapon to take more than one life? If I recall correctly Caliburn took several lives away.
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Unread postby Raitei » August 18th, 2008, 7:06 am

gexer64 wrote:Isn't it possible for a weapon to take more than one life? If I recall correctly Caliburn took several lives away.
only weapons that have greater mystery / concept than god hand (not rank. concept) might be able to do that.
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Unread postby Rikh » August 18th, 2008, 10:42 pm

Raitei wrote:
gexer64 wrote:Isn't it possible for a weapon to take more than one life? If I recall correctly Caliburn took several lives away.
only weapons that have greater mystery / concept than god hand (not rank. concept) might be able to do that.


Excaliblast? I dont know how godhand can recover from that... So i would assume it has to be of that level =)
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Unread postby DarkRedSky » August 19th, 2008, 12:12 am

Can Beserker even come back if he was completely obliterated? Excalibur would seriously leave nothing left of him, are his 12 lives a regenerative property or time reversing property.
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Unread postby gexer64 » August 19th, 2008, 12:34 am

So how ould you determine how many lives are lost in an attack then?

Let's say you use a magical weapon you designed with the raw destructive power of a nuclear warhead. Since it isn't that great a mystery (since it was human made) it would only take one life away?
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Unread postby Zensunni » August 19th, 2008, 12:46 am

Depends depends. The reason Caliburn was able to overcome God Hand was that it's "concept" was superior.
God Hand just heals fatal wounds twelve times, but Caliburn is a sword of assured victory. It doesn't rely on wounding people. The way I understand it, that strike would've blown through all 12 lives if there had been that many left.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 19th, 2008, 1:52 am

@gexer64,
I think you got the right idea, but God Hand works by "rank". Lets assume this magical nuclear missile we have (magical because normal nuclear weapon does nothing to servants) is rank E, which means it is exceptional and above average, it hits God Hand, since E
@Zensunni
Excalibur is the "sword of promised victory", Caliburn is the "sword that chooses kings", that is why Shirou was fumbling around with it, he can't wield it, because he is not the king of England. Berserker got demolished because of the raw damage of Caliburn. I have a question too, did Sabre invoked the true name of Caliburn? If she did not, and that one stab killed Berserker, that will mean Caliburn is superior to Excalibur, as she was bashing at Berserker with Excalibur with no avail.
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Unread postby DarkRedSky » August 19th, 2008, 2:05 am

Excalibur is the "sword of promised victory". Caliburn is the "golden sword of assured victory". According to the weapon status in game. But yeah through out history Caliburn has been seen as many people as the king's sword.

EDIT: And she wasn't bashing at beserker with Excalibur, in raw power Caliburn should pale in comparison to Excalibur. I think the reason Saber couldn't do much to Beserker is because boundary field of the wind king is a rank C NP. And since it's like a sheath, slashing at Beserker wouldn't do much because of his ability to take no damage from anything under rank A.
Last edited by DarkRedSky on August 19th, 2008, 2:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 19th, 2008, 2:12 am

My bad, but the idea I tried to clear up is, just because it is "sword of assured victory", does not guarantee you a victory. Lol, "assured victory" is not part of the effect of the sword, unlike Gae Bolg, which assures heart-piercing (unless you got ungodly luck).
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Unread postby DarkRedSky » August 19th, 2008, 2:18 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:My bad, but the idea I tried to clear up is, just because it is "sword of assured victory", does not guarantee you a victory. Lol, "assured victory" is not part of the effect of the sword, unlike Gae Bolg, which assures heart-piercing (unless you got ungodly luck).


True enough "assured" does not guarantee victory. But I'm sure its greatly improves the chance of victory. If Saber had Caliburn from the start of the war...

1. Archer would be dead. He did take a direct hit if you go FATE route.

2. Beserker would be killed really easily.
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Unread postby Raitei » August 19th, 2008, 4:52 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:@Zensunni
Excalibur is the "sword of promised victory", Caliburn is the "sword that chooses kings", that is why Shirou was fumbling around with it, he can't wield it, because he is not the king of England.
wrong

fuyuki wiki wrote:
Caliburn - The Golden Sword of Destined Victory
The holy sword that is the symbol of England's king of knights, King Arthur. The symbol of the king, pulled from the stone of appointment by the guidance of Merlin.

Different from the holy sword of the Lady of the Lake and so, has somewhat different qualities as a Noble Phantasm. But to Saber, Caliburn is the one that she has a stronger attachment to.

Because swords are symbols of authority, the swords of kings are often lowered to the role of being fancy decorations. The biggest difference between Excalibur and Caliburn is that particular point. The cost of being a dazzling sword is that weapon's grade is inferior to Excalibur. By the legends, it was broken in a battle in which the rules of chivalry had been broken by Arthur.
no one mentioned it's only usable by a king. just because it selects the king doesn't mean only the king can use it. I don't know why people scream about shirou not being able to wield it, while the description in the game says the biggest difference between caliburn and excalibur is about being fancy on design, not "usable-king only".

Berserker got demolished because of the raw damage of Caliburn. I have a question too, did Sabre invoked the true name of Caliburn? If she did not, and that one stab killed Berserker, that will mean Caliburn is superior to Excalibur, as she was bashing at Berserker with Excalibur with no avail.
it doesn't matter. the noble phantasm is activated. no other explanations. normal stabs won't even hurt berserker, unless it's activated as a noble phantasm.

@dark : no need for hardships like that. excalibur could've wiped berserker in a slash. nice and clean.
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Unread postby supremehyren » August 19th, 2008, 7:35 pm

Caliburn killed Berserker 7 times, when he had six lives. If I remember correctly, it had some effect like 'filling Berserker's body with light' when it stabbed him, and also had some mana in it already when he projected it. I think that this was the effect, although the game was a little vague on this part. 'Assured Victory' is just a title. not an effect.

In a BAD END, Saber tried using Excalibur on him with low mana, and it wasn't enough to take out those six lives. I assume at full power it would do more than seven at least.

Broken Phantasm used by Archer in UBW didn't even take off one life, as it was deflected.
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