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Couple of UBW questions

Unread postPosted: August 11th, 2008, 7:41 pm
by gexer64
I have been wondering about this for a while.

In the beginning of UBW Archer overloaded Caladborg and shot it at berserker. Does this offset the reduced rank? If so couldn't archer just summoned 12 high powered swords, overloaded them, and fired them at berserker? Or is the cost of mana too great?


Another question

Since Shirou learned nine lives after tracing berserker's rock slab o death, does this mean he automatically retrieves all combat skills associated with traced weapons? That could make a difference in compared to goldylocks, since he is just an owner.


Sorry if this has been answered already. I'm kinda new.

Re: Couple of UBW questions

Unread postPosted: August 11th, 2008, 8:53 pm
by Sepheriel
gexer64 wrote:I have been wondering about this for a while.

In the beginning of UBW Archer overloaded Caladborg and shot it at berserker. Does this offset the reduced rank? If so couldn't archer just summoned 12 high powered swords, overloaded them, and fired them at berserker? Or is the cost of mana too great?


Another question

Since Shirou learned nine lives after tracing berserker's rock slab o death, does this mean he automatically retrieves all combat skills associated with traced weapons? That could make a difference in compared to goldylocks, since he is just an owner.


Sorry if this has been answered already. I'm kinda new.


Archer's Kaladbolg II is a modified version of the original Caladbolg so he can shoot it like an arrow. I would like to think he could should 12 of them to kill Berserker but as you say, the magical energy required to do so would probably be a little much. Then again, I'm sure using UBW takes a great deal of magical energy so I'm not too sure. Let's just say it would be a good fight. As for your second question, if it pertains to HF, then I cannot help. Sorry. Hope this helps.

Re: Couple of UBW questions

Unread postPosted: August 11th, 2008, 10:20 pm
by Einherjar
gexer64 wrote:I have been wondering about this for a while.

In the beginning of UBW Archer overloaded Caladborg and shot it at berserker. Does this offset the reduced rank? If so couldn't archer just summoned 12 high powered swords, overloaded them, and fired them at berserker? Or is the cost of mana too great?


Another question

Since Shirou learned nine lives after tracing berserker's rock slab o death, does this mean he automatically retrieves all combat skills associated with traced weapons? That could make a difference in compared to goldylocks, since he is just an owner.


Sorry if this has been answered already. I'm kinda new.


1.
I would say He is able to. Then again, he did lose the Berserker in Fate for whatever the reason. In any case, he's not out for blood in the beginning of UBW. The mana can't be too great, and if it is, UBW would solve the problem.


2.
I would say he is able to. After all, Nine Lives is a skill.

Unread postPosted: August 12th, 2008, 12:04 am
by DarkRedSky
1.
Wouldn't godhand prevent Beserker from dying by the same method? Would it even make a difference if it was different swords as arrows?

Unread postPosted: August 12th, 2008, 12:49 am
by gexer64
DarkRedSky wrote:1.
Wouldn't godhand prevent Beserker from dying by the same method? Would it even make a difference if it was different swords as arrows?


How so?

Unread postPosted: August 12th, 2008, 1:01 am
by matthewfarenheit
gexer64 wrote:
DarkRedSky wrote:1.
Wouldn't godhand prevent Beserker from dying by the same method? Would it even make a difference if it was different swords as arrows?


How so?

Godhand makes Berserker's body not only impervious to B rank or lesser NPs, but also makes his body constantly adapt to attacks he already received, making his body impervious to an attack that has already killed it before. Bit I think that, if Archer shot 12 Kaladbolgs in rapid succession (and I know how unlikely that he's able to do so it is) the "assimilation" wouldn't be able to kick in.

Also, I was under the impression that Kaladbolg might have exploded because Berserker counters it with his own sword... Archer intends it to explode or Berdserker breaks it? Maybe both (Archer intends Berserker to hit it so it explodes?)?

Unread postPosted: August 12th, 2008, 1:03 am
by Kansho

Unread postPosted: August 12th, 2008, 1:09 am
by Raitei
matthewfarenheit wrote:
gexer64 wrote:
DarkRedSky wrote:1.
Wouldn't godhand prevent Beserker from dying by the same method? Would it even make a difference if it was different swords as arrows?


How so?

Godhand makes Berserker's body not only impervious to B rank or lesser NPs, but also makes his body constantly adapt to attacks he already received, making his body impervious to an attack that has already killed it before. Bit I think that, if Archer shot 12 Kaladbolgs in rapid succession (and I know how unlikely that he's able to do so it is) the "assimilation" wouldn't be able to kick in.
even though the weapon is the same, the method of killing is different : one uses the weapon directly (stabbing, slashing, etc, etc..), while the other overloads the weapon with mana and fires it as a broken phantasm.

matthewfarenheit wrote:Also, I was under the impression that Kaladbolg might have exploded because Berserker counters it with his own sword... Archer intends it to explode or Berdserker breaks it? Maybe both (Archer intends Berserker to hit it so it explodes?)?
correct. that's what happens. berserker was able to feel the attack with his 6th sense (aka eye of the mind(fake))

Unread postPosted: August 12th, 2008, 2:49 am
by gexer64
matthewfarenheit wrote:Godhand makes Berserker's body not only impervious to B rank or lesser NPs, but also makes his body constantly adapt to attacks he already received, making his body impervious to an attack that has already killed it before. Bit I think that, if Archer shot 12 Kaladbolgs in rapid succession (and I know how unlikely that he's able to do so it is) the "assimilation" wouldn't be able to kick in.

Also, I was under the impression that Kaladbolg might have exploded because Berserker counters it with his own sword... Archer intends it to explode or Berdserker breaks it? Maybe both (Archer intends Berserker to hit it so it explodes?)?


I was knew about the blocking by rank. But not about the adaption

Also would it make a difference if he blocked? I mean if you block a rocket you still get hit with the explosion. But then again, following anime and fantasy laws, you can pretty much block anything with a sword if you are strong enough :roll:

Does archer have to be in contact with the sword to overload it, or can he rain overloaded swords down upon his foe ala goldylocks. But then again the issue of mana comes up. On the other hand, it seems like addition mana can acquired from various sources.

Thanks for giving this newbie the time of day. It makes me feel all special inside.

Unread postPosted: August 14th, 2008, 4:46 pm
by supremehyren
Archer wouldn't have had to use Caladbolg II for all 12 attacks, as he has many, many swords.

For God Hand, however, would it remember 'killed by Caladbolg' or 'killed by Broken Phantasm Arrow' as cause of death? If the latter, it'd mean that Archer could have just spammed BP's at Berserker and won like that.

(Hehe, more ammo for the 'Archer lost on purpose' argument....)


As for gexer's questions:

1: I suppose if the 'rank of the explosion' was high enough, Berserker'd be killed by it. If it works like that?

2: Archer probably has to be in contact with a weapon to fill it with prana. It's unknown how much prana is taken to 'break a noble phantasm', but, since it's just adding onto a weapon that's there already, I doubt it'd be as much as using a noble phantasm, like invoking Gae Bolg or Excalibur.

Unread postPosted: August 14th, 2008, 7:21 pm
by HeartCard
Actually I imagine it costs about as much prana as Gae Bolg(Poke, not Throw. Seriously, how badass is a weapon when you can poke someone's heart with it and kill them?).

They're both low prana costs, and single-use effects. Actaully...Gae Bolg probabley costs slightly less.

Unread postPosted: August 14th, 2008, 8:49 pm
by supremehyren
Gae Bolg is the 'most efficient Noble Phantasm', not the 'least draining': it can kill with one hit, and is meant to be used against one opponent. Therefore, it takes less mana than Excalibur, which can certainly kill, but has a much larger blasting effect in the event of more enemies.

The comparison used in F/SN is that of an arrow vs. a cannon: the arrow usually is weaker, but the cannon is stronger and more costly. Gae Bolg (Impaling Barbed Death, not Striking Death Flight) is an arrow that will always kill, but still takes the same resources as an arrow: meaning that it is more efficient than the 'cannon' Excalibur, but still fatal.

However, even if it is efficient, it still takes 1/7th of a Servant's mana. It's definitely low for a noble phantasm, but compared to a non-NP technique like a broken phantasm, I can't imagine it costing more.

Unread postPosted: August 14th, 2008, 11:27 pm
by DarkRedSky
supremehyren wrote:Archer wouldn't have had to use Caladbolg II for all 12 attacks, as he has many, many swords.

For God Hand, however, would it remember 'killed by Caladbolg' or 'killed by Broken Phantasm Arrow' as cause of death? If the latter, it'd mean that Archer could have just spammed BP's at Berserker and won like that.

(Hehe, more ammo for the 'Archer lost on purpose' argument....)


As for gexer's questions:

1: I suppose if the 'rank of the explosion' was high enough, Berserker'd be killed by it. If it works like that?

2: Archer probably has to be in contact with a weapon to fill it with prana. It's unknown how much prana is taken to 'break a noble phantasm', but, since it's just adding onto a weapon that's there already, I doubt it'd be as much as using a noble phantasm, like invoking Gae Bolg or Excalibur.


I'm assuming it takes A LOT of prana to "break" a NP. Thinking about it, Gae Bolg is efficient in that it takes minimal prana and uses that as a 99% instant kill (unless your luck is off the charts, you're dead). I don't think Archer can replicate Excalibur for the same reasons he can't replicate Ea. Even IF he could replicate Excalibur, wouldn't the prana required to "break" it be too much. Come on it practically takes all of Sabers power to even use the thing. This is just my way of thinking, because you're taking a NP and you're trying to fill it with prana till it pretty much overflows, legendary weapons never break easily let alone by magic.

Unread postPosted: August 14th, 2008, 11:47 pm
by Kansho
If Archer lost, it's because there aren't THAT many weapons that can surpass God Hand, and the "minus a whole rank" it's a big problem against Berserker, even using Broken Phantasm.

That's all.

Six times are a lot of times using a different method each time. So even if Archer can't win it's a pretty decent big number for a single Servant killing the lives one by one...

Unread postPosted: August 15th, 2008, 12:07 am
by Keeper of Gil's Vault
The age-old "how did Archer lose to Berzerker" question...
The simple answer is that, it needs to be done. Only after Archer's lost can Shirou and Sabre's victory seems miraculous in comparison. Based on background information, we can rationalize the result regardless whether or not Archer wins or loses.
It is possible for him to win, as we have seen Archer's mad skills with Kansho/Bakuya Overedge, Broken Phantasms, Rho Aias etc.
It is also possible for him to lose, as we have seen Berserker tying Sabre in melee, and tanking the Gate of Babylon. Even Gilgamesh had to exploit Berzerker's high divinity to win rather than crossing swords with him, and let me remind you Gilgamesh is the egomaniac that is confident in his abilities.
Still though, do not be disappointed about Archer. Think about it, some "random dude" heroic spirit cut down Hercules 5 times running on Independent Action, how impressive is that?

Unread postPosted: August 15th, 2008, 1:21 am
by DarkRedSky
He wasn't running on Independent Action... Rin was still his master so he was still receiving prana from her, I think. Independent action kicks in if he doesn't have a master.

Unread postPosted: August 15th, 2008, 2:45 am
by Rikh
Still, remarkable that Archer, born from a normal person was able to put up even a fight against Hercules in a beserker form.
His reality marble has any known weapon he has ever seen before, he can certainly gain at last a hundred B rank phantasms inside, which he could do broken phantasm to make them rank A. The noble phantasms seen in Fate/Stay Night is an extremely small amount of noble phantasms in existence
(also through his life he witnessed many battles, one including Kansho and Byakua where he obtained their blueprints)

Unread postPosted: August 15th, 2008, 8:42 am
by Raitei
Kansho wrote:If Archer lost, it's because there aren't THAT many weapons that can surpass God Hand, and the "minus a whole rank" it's a big problem against Berserker, even using Broken Phantasm.

That's all.

Six times are a lot of times using a different method each time. So even if Archer can't win it's a pretty decent big number for a single Servant killing the lives one by one...
uh, but in the fight process, berserker's also counterattacking. whether there ARE that many weapons that can be used to kill him (I would think yes, since gil just rain of swords'd berserker and could kill him rather easily. those swords must be at a very high level. and archer has copies of those.) or not, it can't really be determined.

he might have just been killed in the process, not because he cease to resist (or used up all possible chances).

DarkRedSky wrote:He wasn't running on Independent Action... Rin was still his master so he was still receiving prana from her, I think. Independent action kicks in if he doesn't have a master.
he doesn't have a master, silly. his contract has been broken by caster's rule breaker. otherwise, rin can just use a command spell bind to prevent him doing such things as kidnapping her and fighting shirou. :P

in other words.... he's fully running on independent action. and remember, servants will not die from things like severe wounds or blood loss. all your blows must be FATAL.

Unread postPosted: August 15th, 2008, 1:13 pm
by Sliver
Raitei wrote:
DarkRedSky wrote:He wasn't running on Independent Action... Rin was still his master so he was still receiving prana from her, I think. Independent action kicks in if he doesn't have a master.
he doesn't have a master, silly. his contract has been broken by caster's rule breaker. otherwise, rin can just use a command spell bind to prevent him doing such things as kidnapping her and fighting shirou. :P

in other words.... he's fully running on independent action. and remember, servants will not die from things like severe wounds or blood loss. all your blows must be FATAL.


This is the Fate route fight between Archer and Berserker, Rin is still his Master.

Unread postPosted: August 15th, 2008, 2:17 pm
by Raitei
Sliver wrote:This is the Fate route fight between Archer and Berserker, Rin is still his Master.
... topic title deceived my eyes. :P