Archer's Life [SPOILERS]

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Archer's Life [SPOILERS]

Unread postby HeartCard » August 3rd, 2008, 7:43 pm

My search engine doesn't seem to get any result of anything (ANYTHING), so I apologize if this has been stated already but...

Is the below (A) case conceivable? Not saying it's even close to true, but it might be fun to think about.
Is it just me or does it seem fully plausible to think the below (B) case?

(A) Case: The true way Fate/Stay Night gets away with three different routes is due to Archer's Past. Perhaps this explains why they are unlocked and not simply available from the start like most VN multi-heroine games. The two time frames are IRT(In-Route Timeline) and PRT(Post-Route Timeline)
Fate Route: IRT Archer:Emiya Shirou with slightly altered life. PRT Archer:Emiya Shirou ends up just like archer, but due to a slight change(unknown), infact is the Archer from the UBW route.
UBW Route: IRT Archer: Fate Route PRT Archer. PRT Archer: Emiya from is slightly led away from the Archer path, but due to not giving up the dream(despite acknowledging it's impossibility) still becomes Archer.
HF Route: IRT Archer: UBW Route PRT Archer. PRT Archer: None. Due to finally giving up his "Dream" for his "Reality", Archer will never come into being.


(B) Case: Truely, does anyone else agree with me that the Fate Route Shirou matches what would be needed to become Archer?

Loses Saber.
Has full heart in his Dream to Save Everyone, spawning the needed pact to make Archer.
Is not properly cared for by Rin or Sakura to (as End of UBW Archer put it) "Keep him from becoming twisted like me".
Makes uses of his Bow and Arrows VS Berserker.
Knows the identity of Saber's True Sword *Stated shockingly by Saber when Archer UBW'd Shirou+Friends in UBW route.*
Is fully aware of Avalon/"The Sheath"*Archer mentions it during the Archer vs Shirou fight in UBW route)
Is not aware of what will become of him due to a high lack of interference from Archer.

And if you factor in the personality he gradually slightly changes, he does become abit more twisted at the end of the fate route than in the others imho.

The only real discontinuities are the techniques Archer has.
Archer Favours Kansho+Bakuya instead of anything else. Something Shirou would only do with the events of the UBW route most imho.
Archer has his Reality Marble(Albeit one could be certain that he might awaken it on his own, such as due to how he "saves everyone in his sight").
Archer has Rho Aias, again a UBW Route specific Shirou factor.
Archer's favourite colour seems to be Red, something that should only happen after the events of the UBW route due to Rin.


And for the record:
I am NOT calling this canonical nor as the truth, I'm asking what you think about the theory.

P.S. : Anyone wanna explain to me why Archer hair turns White?
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Re: Archer's Life [SPOILERS]

Unread postby Einherjar » August 3rd, 2008, 7:52 pm

HeartCard wrote:The only real discontinuities are the techniques Archer has.
Archer Favours Kansho+Bakuya instead of anything else. Something Shirou would only do with the events of the UBW route most imho.
Archer has his Reality Marble(Albeit one could be certain that he might awaken it on his own, such as due to how he "saves everyone in his sight").
Archer has Rho Aias, again a UBW Route specific Shirou factor.
Archer's favourite colour seems to be Red, something that should only happen after the events of the UBW route due to Rin.

P.S. : Anyone wanna explain to me why Archer hair turns White?

It's the same Archer in all three routes.

Archer is not from Fate, but something similar.

Eventually, Shirou is able to see Kansho and Bakuya sometime after his Heaven's feel. (whatever the case, Shirou never got a chance to see Kanshou and Bakuya in his version of the 5th HF)

Shirou's ability is the reality marble, so it's natural he'll awaken it sometime sooner or later.

Heroic spirit EMIYA is a counter guardian, so it's obvious he'll come across Rho Aias at some point.
"Archer has Rho Aias, again a UBW Route specific Shirou factor."
I don't see your point. Archer has that in every route, just that you only saw it in UBW doesn't mean it's the only route where it exists.

Red cloth is a holy burial cloth that shields Archer from spiritual interference in his surroundings.

As for the white hair, I blame tracing.

Also, I don't think Fate Shirou will end up like Archer. After all, his has no regrets.
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Re: Archer's Life [SPOILERS]

Unread postby Tash » August 4th, 2008, 12:12 am

HeartCard wrote:P.S. : Anyone wanna explain to me why Archer hair turns White?

Helping everyone is very stressful.
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Unread postby SmellyGoomba » August 4th, 2008, 2:02 am

For every person Archer saved, a single strand of his hair turned permanently white.

Okay I'm just kidding here.
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Unread postby HeartCard » August 4th, 2008, 2:25 pm

lol @ White hair theories.
Better one: Perhaps he ends up BF/GFing Tohsaka anyways!? Year 2 of Marriage=White. Year 4 of marriage=Death. Had it gone to year 6: Bald Archer.
j/k

@Einherjar:
"Same Archer each Route"
I said the A case question was a THOUGHT, not even a serious one.

And to clarify, I'm seperating Servant Heroic Emiya and Non-Heroic Emiya by the names "Archer" and "Shirou" respectively. I assumed this would be obvious, but nonetheless now it is for sure.

Is there any proof Archer is not from Fate? Even if there is, is there anything wrong with going back and still wondering about it?

Awakening the Reality Marble does not seem all that much a promise of being Emiya Shirou to me. If you follow the Fate Route's ending, he pretty much just goes back to a normal life after it. I don't recall him ever getting even an invitation to go with Rin to train in magic or anything that might cause his Magus abilities to advance at all. To be honest, I'm pretty sure Shirou would just considering his magic just "Tracing" all his life time until his death unless he found out the truth.


And it's not OBVIOUS he'll come accross the Aias at some point just by being a Counter Guardian. It depends on where and when that guardian is needed. History records no instance of the Aias being beaten if I recall correctly, and so the likelihood a Counter Guardian would be needed in a time/place where the aias is used seems highly unlikely to me.

Although I do remember something being said by one of the shirous(Not sure which, but it was during the "Unlimited Blade Works" scene) that makes me think Aias was there where Archer finally died or from where Arturia's last battle took place:
"I will pull a shield from that Hill of Swords."

I don't see your point. Archer has that in every route, just that you only saw it in UBW doesn't mean it's the only route where it exists.


Archer Does, Shirou does not. Like I said at the start of this post, Heroic and Non-Heroic are being seperated by the names "Archer" and "Shirou".
However, Shirou does indeed learn it on his own in the UBW Route without the need of Archer. He learns it from the "Hill of Swords" if my theory is correct.
Which would(now that I think about it) probabley refer to where Saber died, since he does have some of her memories due to his dreams(Albeit the player is not directly informed of them in the UBW route).


Favourite Colour issue: Actually I was refering more to the strange Lack-Of-Blue in his outfit/weapon choices. Only Kaladborg II had any blue on it from what I recall. Even Kansho has a Red-net design on the blade.
Sure his cloth is one thing, but I'd like to note there are other such clothes, two of which I know are blue(light and dark blue respectively). Or perhaps the idea was simply an Anti-Fate(The route) Shirou. In other words, he became the opposite of all that Fate's Shirou was...Except that the opposite of blue would be Yellow actually. Unless I'm mistakening an Inverse as an Opposite.

Actually...Fate Shirou expresses deep longing for saber and a strong desire to order her not to destroy the grail, in my opinion that's pretty close to Regret for not being able to save her. UBW Shirou holds no Regrets. HF Shirou...Not too sure of. In the event he lives through the route, I would say he might have alittle regret(Illya and Saber, etc), but that's irrelevant due to the extremely high impossibility that HF Shirou can become Archer. Afterall the most major Archer factor is that Archer-Shirou followed his Dream, whereas HF Shirou gives up the dream completely.

All in all, I still have to say it's not nearly as impossible as people say it is for Fate Shirou to end up as Heroic Spirit Emiya. (perhaps Slightly different nonetheless).
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Unread postby Raitei » August 4th, 2008, 2:43 pm

HeartCard wrote:lol @ White hair theories.
Better one: Perhaps he ends up BF/GFing Tohsaka anyways!? Year 2 of Marriage=White. Year 4 of marriage=Death. Had it gone to year 6: Bald Archer.
j/k
jokes aside, I have a strong hunch it's because of tracing sorcery. or gradation air, to be more exact.

HeartCard wrote:Favourite Colour issue: Actually I was refering more to the strange Lack-Of-Blue in his outfit/weapon choices. Only Kaladborg II had any blue on it from what I recall. Even Kansho has a Red-net design on the blade.
Sure his cloth is one thing, but I'd like to note there are other such clothes, two of which I know are blue(light and dark blue respectively). Or perhaps the idea was simply an Anti-Fate(The route) Shirou. In other words, he became the opposite of all that Fate's Shirou was...Except that the opposite of blue would be Yellow actually. Unless I'm mistakening an Inverse as an Opposite.

Actually...Fate Shirou expresses deep longing for saber and a strong desire to order her not to destroy the grail, in my opinion that's pretty close to Regret for not being able to save her. UBW Shirou holds no Regrets. HF Shirou...Not too sure of. In the event he lives through the route, I would say he might have alittle regret(Illya and Saber, etc), but that's irrelevant due to the extremely high impossibility that HF Shirou can become Archer. Afterall the most major Archer factor is that Archer-Shirou followed his Dream, whereas HF Shirou gives up the dream completely.

All in all, I still have to say it's not nearly as impossible as people say it is for Fate Shirou to end up as Heroic Spirit Emiya. (perhaps Slightly different nonetheless).
it's not that he "hates" blue, and "likes red more", but more likely because of his clothes are like that in default. the cloth used for his jacket and stuffs are burial clothes, special clothes that are used to bury holy people / saints. it helps him endure the interference from the world and stuffs.

and as a matter of fact, all burial clothes are red. (magdala's burial cloth, martin's burial cloth, etc, etc...). why kansho has like red spots on the blade is a pure coincidence, I'd think.

also, the most possible shirou to become archer is fate shirou, yes. he still bury a little bit of regret inside his heart, of not being able to save someone he loved. but still, the chances are very slim. less than 5%, I would think.
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Unread postby password » August 4th, 2008, 4:15 pm

Hmm.. I'd say Archer is from fate(not the route, but the game FSN). The game doesn't imply any parallel universe theory at all, it just says past and future. It talks about the time axis only, not about alternate universes and stuff. And Archer has that pendant of Rin's, so, he has to be from fate, and has to have been involved in the war considering he remembers Saber. It couldn't have been the exact Shirou from any one of the routes though, he implies several things at several points. As he was uncared for, it couldn't have been the UBW Shirou. It couldn't have been HF Shirou because he gives up and all and It couldn't have been fate Shirou as it is stated that Archer had a love interest who betrayed him but Shirou is all "I'll forever love Saber..." at the end of fate. And he knows about Saber's identity but doesn't recognize Rin. (I think it was merely an act in his case, he must have recognized Rin as the pendant he returned was not the one Rin left at the school but the one he had, which means he knew about her from the beginning, so much for not knowing your identity.) So, My best guess is that neither one of the route is true, and the complete story is formed by taking all three together, well, whatever is compatible between them anyways and mixing them up. I bet it was like he loved Rin but Rin left him for Sakura and he couldn't forget Saber either so Sakura betrayed him lol. Sorry for the prejudice, I just don't think Sakura is the type that can stand sharing Shirou with others. And as he asks Saber if she still holds that stupid objective of hers, it implies that the ending was different from fate in the grail war he participated in. If it had been like the fate route, he would have been all happy and would never have asked saber that question because he knows she got free or something. And as he seems to be against Saber's ideal of living for others and not wishing for himself, I doubt he would turn into Archer, someone who cares only for others. So, it has to be different from Shirou from all three routes but he isn't from an alternate universe because if he was, all that changing the past and creating a paradox would be total crap. And the game never brought AUs up, not even once, it just talked about time and space, not about parallel universes. So, I bet the true life Shirou lives is a hybrid of three routes and I don't know why, but, all three heroines left him. Well, Saber is obvious, Rin, I don't know, she might have died early or something, or just left him for Sakura or simply didn't get involved with him, Sakura, well, probably got jealous and betrayed him, or died in the war and left Shirou an unmarried widower(I don't know or care how one can be an unmarried widower lol).
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Unread postby Raitei » August 4th, 2008, 9:37 pm

no parallel universes? are you kidding me? the visual novels in nasuverse do directly imply that there ARE parallel universes. that are, the "routes". it conveys possible different timelines, with unlimited possibilities of consequences based on the action taken by someone. just like how fate branches into ubw when shirou chose to stop saber, and much else (the bad endings and stuffs).

also, this is directly mentioned by zelretch's magic kaleidoscope, which allows him to travel into different parallel universes.
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Unread postby Cat Megex » August 4th, 2008, 10:20 pm

Raitei wrote:also, this is directly mentioned by zelretch's magic kaleidoscope, which allows him to travel into different parallel universes.


Are we talking "kaleidoscope" kaleidoscope? Like, the thing you look into that has some mirrors and glitter and stuff and makes pretty patterns?
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Unread postby Raitei » August 4th, 2008, 10:28 pm

Cat Megex wrote:
Raitei wrote:also, this is directly mentioned by zelretch's magic kaleidoscope, which allows him to travel into different parallel universes.


Are we talking "kaleidoscope" kaleidoscope? Like, the thing you look into that has some mirrors and glitter and stuff and makes pretty patterns?
we both know what we're talking about. the "kaleidoscope", #2 of the remaining 5 true magic :)
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Unread postby Einherjar » August 5th, 2008, 2:22 am

HeartCard wrote:Awakening the Reality Marble does not seem all that much a promise of being Emiya Shirou to me. If you follow the Fate Route's ending, he pretty much just goes back to a normal life after it. I don't recall him ever getting even an invitation to go with Rin to train in magic or anything that might cause his Magus abilities to advance at all. To be honest, I'm pretty sure Shirou would just considering his magic just "Tracing" all his life time until his death unless he found out the truth.

Fate Shirou != Archer (he might still become a counter guardian though)

HeartCard wrote:And it's not OBVIOUS he'll come accross the Aias at some point just by being a Counter Guardian. It depends on where and when that guardian is needed. History records no instance of the Aias being beaten if I recall correctly, and so the likelihood a Counter Guardian would be needed in a time/place where the aias is used seems highly unlikely to me.

A counter guardian is outside time, so it's natural for him to encounter Rho Aias at some point.

HeartCard wrote:Although I do remember something being said by one of the shirous(Not sure which, but it was during the "Unlimited Blade Works" scene) that makes me think Aias was there where Archer finally died or from where Arturia's last battle took place:
"I will pull a shield from that Hill of Swords."

the Hill of swords = UBW. Tracing is just a "byproduct" of it.
HeartCard wrote:
I don't see your point. Archer has that in every route, just that you only saw it in UBW doesn't mean it's the only route where it exists.


Archer Does, Shirou does not. Like I said at the start of this post, Heroic and Non-Heroic are being seperated by the names "Archer" and "Shirou".
However, Shirou does indeed learn it on his own in the UBW Route without the need of Archer. He learns it from the "Hill of Swords" if my theory is correct.
Which would(now that I think about it) probabley refer to where Saber died, since he does have some of her memories due to his dreams(Albeit the player is not directly informed of them in the UBW route).

Archer saw it some point in the past or future. The hill of swords = ubw/archer's end/ideal/whateveryouwanttocallit.

HeartCard wrote:Favourite Colour issue: Actually I was refering more to the strange Lack-Of-Blue in his outfit/weapon choices. Only Kaladborg II had any blue on it from what I recall. Even Kansho has a Red-net design on the blade.
Sure his cloth is one thing, but I'd like to note there are other such clothes, two of which I know are blue(light and dark blue respectively). Or perhaps the idea was simply an Anti-Fate(The route) Shirou. In other words, he became the opposite of all that Fate's Shirou was...Except that the opposite of blue would be Yellow actually. Unless I'm mistakening an Inverse as an Opposite.

Red is opposite of blue... Look in the Light spectrum...

HeartCard wrote:Actually...Fate Shirou expresses deep longing for saber and a strong desire to order her not to destroy the grail, in my opinion that's pretty close to Regret for not being able to save her. UBW Shirou holds no Regrets. HF Shirou...Not too sure of. In the event he lives through the route, I would say he might have alittle regret(Illya and Saber, etc), but that's irrelevant due to the extremely high impossibility that HF Shirou can become Archer. Afterall the most major Archer factor is that Archer-Shirou followed his Dream, whereas HF Shirou gives up the dream completely.

In Fate, Tohsaka is so surprised at Shirou's attitude that she think he'll die for not having any regrets. Shirou said in the game:
Shirou wrote:"---No. I probably don't have any regrets."
It's not a bluff, and I say so with a calm state that even surprises me.
There is no regret, and I don't have anything I forgot to tell her.
That parting contained everything.
What I wanted to do.
What she dreamed of.

Shirou wrote:"Yeah. But I still dream about it. I'll recall her for the rest of my life.
My memory would fade away someday, and I would forget about her voice and her gestures.
But still---I'll remember forever that this thing occurred and that I loved Saber"

HeartCard wrote:All in all, I still have to say it's not nearly as impossible as people say it is for Fate Shirou to end up as Heroic Spirit Emiya. (perhaps Slightly different nonetheless).

Shriou should end up as a counter guardian with no regrets. (which is not Archer)
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Unread postby Anium » August 5th, 2008, 10:17 am

Maybe, just maybe, Shirou participated in the war, instead of archer, there was another servant,(maybe who had kansho-bakuya), they were allies, shirou fights and when the war is over, shirou wants to kill sakura(because she went mad) for the greater good, and rin backstabs him.
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Unread postby password » August 5th, 2008, 4:29 pm

Raitei wrote:no parallel universes? are you kidding me? the visual novels in nasuverse do directly imply that there ARE parallel universes. that are, the "routes". it conveys possible different timelines, with unlimited possibilities of consequences based on the action taken by someone. just like how fate branches into ubw when shirou chose to stop saber, and much else (the bad endings and stuffs).

also, this is directly mentioned by zelretch's magic kaleidoscope, which allows him to travel into different parallel universes.

Ok, I know about the routes and the endings being parallel universes and all. And yeah, Zelretch does have that ability and yeah, Kaleidoscope is one of the 5 sorceries. But, what I meant was that the game doesn't ever imply that Archer is from a parallel universe, only that he is from future and his goal is to create a time paradox and thus, hopefully, change the future and stop Shirou from becoming a superhero like himself. And the game also talks about time and time only when Shirou discusses whatever should happen to Saber should she get her wish granted. The game doesn't say that its from a parallel universe that Archer comes or its in a parallel universe the guardians are located at. Give me one instance where it is explicitly suggested that Archer is Shirou from a parallel universe, will you? There are several scenes that clearly state he is from future, and as it doesn't state parallel universes and it'd be pointless to change the future if one is from a different universe, I therefore believe its best to infer that Archer is from the same universe. Give me one scene where something else is mentioned. I think it'd be funny to talk about creating a time paradox and changing the future and all if its from a different universe they come, both Saber and Archer lol. And its like the game clearly says that even if they change time and thus change future, as they are elevated above the time axis, they will remain as guardians, I don't think alternate universes were ever mentioned, not in this matter at least.

To Einherjar, I don't think Archer held any regrets until his death either, it is clearly mentioned in UBW by Rin that he dies without regrets, acting as if it was even his wish to die and become a guardian. (something like, and then, he reaches this desolate land, a hill of swords, a barren land with infinite steel, rusted, without any wielder and he lets go of his swords, still with a smile in his face, telling himself, he has no regrets). It is after countless summonings as a Guardian that he begins to despise humans and conclude that a superhero is only a conceited fantasy. So, he could be fate Archer if that is case. He can't be HF Shirou, that's the only route where he gives up his ideal, but you never know, something could have happened to pursue it again. I don't know, its all speculation after all, but there is no concrete evidence against archer being Fate Shirou, at least not what you said.
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Unread postby Einherjar » August 5th, 2008, 6:28 pm

Archer himself said that killing Shirou would probably not change anything but he just does it to vent his frustration.
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Unread postby password » August 5th, 2008, 6:37 pm

Yeah, that's what I meant as well. Killing Shirou won't change anything because he is already a guardian and is thus off the time axis, it is never suggested that things won't change for him because he is from a different universe. Also, it is implied that he is from the same universe as he talks of how, hopefully, if he himself is the one to eliminate his older self, the paradox would be big enough to change things for him as well. Well, as an alternate universe is never mentioned and he talks of time paradox, I believe it is to be inferred that he is from the same universe. Its like if something is not questioned, then it doesn't require an answer. As there is never any suggestion from the game that Archer or anyone is from a parallel world, well, other than Zeltrech in HF, and certainly not regarding Archer, its not logical to assume that he is from a different universe. Don't go after an already hunted prey. The game clearly mentions that Archer is from future and doesn't make any reference whatsoever as to him being from a different universe so, don't pursue it beyond the game unless you want to make personal assumptions.
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Unread postby Inverted » August 5th, 2008, 6:57 pm

When Archer/Shirou first traced an NP he seriously injured his left arm . Fate Shirou had no such problems when tracing Caliburn. And if Archer were from one of the 3 routes Gaia would crash from the contradiction .If there was such a possibility he wouldn't be allowed to be summoned in the first place.
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Unread postby Cat Megex » August 5th, 2008, 11:08 pm

Raitei wrote:we both know what we're talking about. the "kaleidoscope", #2 of the remaining 5 true magic :)


...Actually, I didn't know what Zelretch's True Magic was called. >_>

Inverted wrote:And if Archer were from one of the 3 routes Gaia would crash from the contradiction.


It's the Matrix! XD
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Unread postby password » August 6th, 2008, 4:01 pm

Inverted wrote:When Archer/Shirou first traced an NP he seriously injured his left arm . Fate Shirou had no such problems when tracing Caliburn. And if Archer were from one of the 3 routes Gaia would crash from the contradiction .If there was such a possibility he wouldn't be allowed to be summoned in the first place.

Well, let's consider the scenarios. In fate, Shirou has ample time to project the sword compared to UBW and he had more affinity with Caliburn , it being the sword of his own servant and him having had dreams of it for quite a while by then while Kansho/Bakuya are swords of a different servant and he just projects them because he is fascinated by them, there definitely were not nearly as many viewings as Caliburn. And well, Archer says that his arm was nearly detached, which is what fate Shirou says he felt like after the first projection.

Also, that contradiction thing won't occur in the first place as Archer is a Guardian, he is already off the time axis and is thus not an existence that would create any inconsistencies in the time axis. If there would be a contradiction with him being summoned then Saber being at two times at the same moment would create one as well. And Saber is not even off the time axis while Archer is and the game clearly mentions that all Guardians are beyond time, there'd be no contradiction. Rin clearly mentions,"How Stupid of me? If there's not a hero in the past that befits the abilities of the heroic spirit then the hero must be from future. A heroic spirit can be summoned from any time, even at the same time and place they lived in", well, something along those lines. Any inconsistency wouldn't occur as Archer isn't limited to time anymore. It'd be freaking awesome if Gaia would Crash though. I mean, that's what he is trying to do as well, create a time paradox, but it probably won't be enough to change the future and even if the future is changes, he probably won't be freed from being a filthy Guardian. That's why he wants the paradox to be big enough and will thus kill himself himself to create one.

My view is that none of the routes represent what actually happens with Shirou and whatever actually happened to Shirou is what happened to Archer and that would be something like a hybrid of the three routes.
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Unread postby Inverted » August 7th, 2008, 6:38 am

Archer's exact words were "I had one of my arms taken away when I did it for the first time ." He didn't feel like losing an arm, he at least had it injured for some time unlike in Fate where he was alright even after tracing it.Not to mention he even carried Illya .

As for Time Paradox Archer is deluding himself .If there was 0.0000001% chance of it happening Gaia wouldn't have allowed him to be summoned in the first place. The moment he came back he changed the war from his own.

As for Saber, she's not trying to kill herself is she , or her parents , or destroy the isles before she was born. Saber was allowed to be summoned because it would cause no contradiction.

But to each his own I guess .Multiple theories can run around.
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Unread postby feuhrer » August 7th, 2008, 5:16 pm

archer is not from any of the 3 routes, couse the archer we know never meet himself when he was young.
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