Archer's Life [SPOILERS]

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Unread postby password » August 7th, 2008, 5:54 pm

Inverted wrote:Archer's exact words were "I had one of my arms taken away when I did it for the first time ." He didn't feel like losing an arm, he at least had it injured for some time unlike in Fate where he was alright even after tracing it.Not to mention he even carried Illya .

As for Time Paradox Archer is deluding himself .If there was 0.0000001% chance of it happening Gaia wouldn't have allowed him to be summoned in the first place. The moment he came back he changed the war from his own.

As for Saber, she's not trying to kill herself is she , or her parents , or destroy the isles before she was born. Saber was allowed to be summoned because it would cause no contradiction.

But to each his own I guess .Multiple theories can run around.


"The moment he came back, he changed the war from his own?" I find that a bit too good a explanation. Look, Archer has that pendant that Shirou got when he was saved by Rin after being killed by Lancer, right? At least that much is true about Archer no matter what. Now, tell me, when was Shirou killed by :ancer before he found the pendant? Yep, that's right, he got the pendant after he was killed by lancer because he happened to observe the battle between Lancer and you know who, Archer. Then, does it not logically follow that however the rest of the war may have gone for Archer, it is at least true that Archer was there in that war as Rin's servant? Its like a time loop if you think about it. Archer is summoned because of that pendant he got after he was killed by Lancer and saved by Rin but he was killed because he saw Archer fight Lancer. In other words, Archer will always be there in any war Emiya Shirou is involved in. As he was in the war he fought in his life as well, he couldn't have changed the war the moment he was summoned. That's the point. In his war as well, Rin was there, Archer was there and Lancer was there. He saw their battle on the 3rd night and got killed and was saved by Rin and found that pendant afterward. That much is definitely certain.

Yeah, Archer might be deluding himself about the time paradox thing, hell, the game implies that he most likely is. But Gaia has nothing to do with his summoning to begin with and the reason such a paradox won't be created is clearly stated by the game as the fact that he is off the time axis, he is not Shirou anymore. The moment he died, he became a Guardian, a being not encompassed by time.

Saber is already there, frozen in time, but she isn't off the time axis like Archer is and yet she is being allowed to be summoned. In other words, her body is literally at two places at the same time within the time axis. That should cause more of a contradiction than should Archer's summoning, as Archer is not in the time axis in the first place. And Saber is trying to change her past as well. The game clearly mentions that should she succeed, she will still exist but the hero Arthuria wouldn't and that is most likely what would happen with Archer as well. Even if Shirou doesn't become a hero, Archer will forever be a Guardian, which is a sad and touching fate. Its clearly mentioned in the ending of UBW as well.

And Shirou does mention feeling as though his arm is being taken away in Fate when tracing. Now, we don't know if Archer is being literal or not when he says he has his arm was taken away the first time he traced. Him saying that doesn't rule out the possibility that he could be Fate Shirou but other things do. So, he can't be Fate Shirou. That's what I have been saying all along anyways. He can't be Shirou from either of the routes.

@feuhrer: Not true, Archer was there in the war he fought as Shirou in as well. True, there may have been no further involvements from Rin and Archer but at least this much is true that Rin saved him and just before Rin saved him, Archer locates him. In other words, they do meet, just that, at best, he has no memory of it. And if his war indeed went like Fate, then, there's no way he could have know the identity of Archer which means there would be no problems.
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Unread postby Inverted » August 7th, 2008, 9:21 pm

Yeah, he's not from the 3 routes . But other points we agree to disagree then .I'll still stick to my parallel world theory where Archer class was somebody else.

Archer/Shiro was revived by Rin too .But we have no idea how.It's not necessary it happened the same way.The only thing we know is he summoned Saber, other than that nothing.

As for Saber only her Spirit was traveling not her body .The fact that she couldn't dematerialize was summoned in her last moments not because her body was travelling .If she had succeeded probably there will be another time line branch off. That's my theory anyway .

As for Gaia/Alaya stuff I'm not the best person to explain .Maybe KNK movie 5 will give you some answers about how they work.They actively combat situation which endanger the world and also anomalies.

Shirou says that his rists were in pain after blocking berserker's blow after tracing Caliburn .But he had no problems carrying Illya .Archer's injury was probably closer to UBW Shirou's or an extreme version of it.

You probably won't agree with any of the points anyway, So shoot it to high heaven :D .To each his own.

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Unread postby Rikh » August 8th, 2008, 3:31 am

Shiro would have totally summoned archer if he 1) summoned before rin, and 2) did not have avalon in his body

lol maybe a choice in the game early on leads to a death, like in the beginning
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in which case shiro randomly summons a servant, archer, then stabbed in the heart
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Unread postby password » August 8th, 2008, 4:33 pm

Inverted wrote:Yeah, he's not from the 3 routes . But other points we agree to disagree then .I'll still stick to my parallel world theory where Archer class was somebody else.

Archer/Shiro was revived by Rin too .But we have no idea how.It's not necessary it happened the same way.The only thing we know is he summoned Saber, other than that nothing.

As for Saber only her Spirit was traveling not her body .The fact that she couldn't dematerialize was summoned in her last moments not because her body was travelling .If she had succeeded probably there will be another time line branch off. That's my theory anyway .

As for Gaia/Alaya stuff I'm not the best person to explain .Maybe KNK movie 5 will give you some answers about how they work.They actively combat situation which endanger the world and also anomalies.

Shirou says that his rists were in pain after blocking berserker's blow after tracing Caliburn .But he had no problems carrying Illya .Archer's injury was probably closer to UBW Shirou's or an extreme version of it.

You probably won't agree with any of the points anyway, So shoot it to high heaven :D .To each his own.

We are going nowhere.

HUH? What do you mean? I will agree with anything you say, so long as its logical. Like I agree with the Gaia stuff but Gaia had nothing to do with the summoning, it will stop Archer from killing Shirou if it really is going to create a serious paradox but that's about it, it won't do anything before that.

Now, the game clearly implies that the first three days of the war went exactly the same for Archer as it does for Shirou. He got the pendant after being revived by Rin after being killed by Lancer for being a witness of the battle between Archer and Lancer. Archer himself tells Shirou that the pendant he gave to Rin is the same one that he found on the third day and preserved for the rest of his life. I don't think there's anything to question there. Well, since Archer says he got the pendant and he actually does tell us how and where, its obvious that he was saved the same way as Shirou. If anything happened differently in the war Archer was involved in, it has to have happened after he got the pendant. Like Rin probably didn't visit his house and Saber was summoned before he was cornered by Lancer again or anything like that. But the war went the same way for him as it does for Shirou for the first three days at least.

I don't think Rin has any connection with any other heroic spirit, does she? She clearly tells that she was left nothing like that by her father. Now, as Archer has her pendant, he will always be the one Rin summons as he's the only heroic spirit Rin has any connection with. So, nobody else could have been the Archer class servant in the 5th war Archer participated as Shirou in. Besides, the fact that Archer was killed by Lancer when he was Shirou and was consequently saved by Rin already tells us that he saw the battle between Archer and Lancer and was discovered by Archer before Rin saved him. These two facts eliminate the possibility of any other servant being summoned by Rin in the war Archer participated as Shirou in. Thus, Archer was in the war where Shirou, his former self, was. I don't think there is any need to bring in parallel universes here because Rin clearly tells in one of the intermissions(Well, Captured Princess) that anyone that is elevated to the Guardian level is off the time axis and can be summoned into any time, even the time and the place he lived in and that she knows that Archer is the future form of Shirou. The game is only talking about the former self and the future self, why bring in further complexities such as parallel universes?

Hmm.. Judging by the description Rin gives of Archer when he is about to die, we can safely assume that he didn't get his hand taken away for real after his first projection. She says he has swords in both his hands and lets them go. And, Archer says his hands were taken away for a week, which means his hands weren't actually taken away but he just felt as though they were. Now, it is true that fate Shirou carries Illya back and does stuff with his hands later on but he could still feel as though his hands were taken away, could he not? Its not essential that you can't use your hands just because you feel as though they were taken away. Its just as Shirou explains in UBW, it is much like how your hands feel after temporary pause in circulation. You don't feel them, but you can still use them. Anyways, as we agree that Shirou from fate can't be Archer, it is of no consequence whether he had his arm taken away in the same manner as Archer or not lol.

Regarding Saber, I find your explanation plausible but she's still more of a problem for Gaia than Archer could be because even if she's a spirit, she does have a body in this time and one in the past while Archer is simply a being that is beyond time itself.

Yeah yeah, I know that. You have your opinions and I have mine and I respect that fact as much as anyone. But its still good too bring your opinions in front and have them pass the ring of fire, right? Its best if discussions are held on your opinions and you correct them if there is any need or prove them rather than let them rot within your brain, right? So, let's continue :p.

Btw, are you absolutely sure heaven is high? It could be low for all you know, and I don't even know if it actually exists lol.

Heh, Rikh, you are absolutely correct. He would have summoned Archer if he had done it before Rin. But if he didn't have Avalon in his body, he would be dead ten years before the war even began lol.
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Unread postby Anium » August 8th, 2008, 7:05 pm

I don't think the war archer fought is the same shiro is fighting, logic says there has to be a first time, so there MUST be a parallel universe, archer can't be a servant if he did not make a contract, before the contract he had a life, we know he summoned saber, and rin saved him, nothing else.
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » August 8th, 2008, 10:19 pm

Anium wrote:I don't think the war archer fought is the same shiro is fighting, logic says there has to be a first time, so there MUST be a parallel universe, archer can't be a servant if he did not make a contract, before the contract he had a life, we know he summoned saber, and rin saved him, nothing else.


Soooo why did Shirou get to be possesed or whatever by Avenger in the first place?
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Unread postby Inverted » August 8th, 2008, 10:23 pm

password wrote:HUH? What do you mean? I will agree with anything you say, so long as its logical. Like I agree with the Gaia stuff but Gaia had nothing to do with the summoning, it will stop Archer from killing Shirou if it really is going to create a serious paradox but that's about it, it won't do anything before that.


It's the way Gaia works.It won't allow something to be summoned which would endanger it existence.Even tough they use the Holy Grail to summon it.The fact it happens in the Gaian System allows Gaia to stop the summoning of Archer if he were from the same timeline.
password wrote:Now, the game clearly implies that the first three days of the war went exactly the same for Archer as it does for Shirou. He got the pendant after being revived by Rin after being killed by Lancer for being a witness of the battle between Archer and Lancer. Archer himself tells Shirou that the pendant he gave to Rin is the same one that he found on the third day and preserved for the rest of his life. I don't think there's anything to question there. Well, since Archer says he got the pendant and he actually does tell us how and where, its obvious that he was saved the same way as Shirou. If anything happened differently in the war Archer was involved in, it has to have happened after he got the pendant. Like Rin probably didn't visit his house and Saber was summoned before he was cornered by Lancer again or anything like that. But the war went the same way for him as it does for Shirou for the first three days at least.


The game implies nothing other than the fact that he summoned Saber.How and when it's not given.We know nothing other than that. As for the pendant I'll explain in the following point.

I don't think Rin has any connection with any other heroic spirit, does she? She clearly tells that she was left nothing like that by her father. Now, as Archer has her pendant, he will always be the one Rin summons as he's the only heroic spirit Rin has any connection with. So, nobody else could have been the Archer class servant in the 5th war Archer participated as Shirou in. Besides, the fact that Archer was killed by Lancer when he was Shirou and was consequently saved by Rin already tells us that he saw the battle between Archer and Lancer and was discovered by Archer before Rin saved him. These two facts eliminate the possibility of any other servant being summoned by Rin in the war Archer participated as Shirou in. Thus, Archer was in the war where Shirou, his former self, was. I don't think there is any need to bring in parallel universes here because Rin clearly tells in one of the intermissions(Well, Captured Princess) that anyone that is elevated to the Guardian level is off the time axis and can be summoned into any time, even the time and the place he lived in and that she knows that Archer is the future form of Shirou. The game is only talking about the former self and the future self, why bring in further complexities such as parallel universes?


The is one critical difference between Archer's pendant and Shirou's pendant .Archer's pendant had no prana left in it at all, while Shirou's had small amounts renaming.
It's not necessary for you to possess an artifact of a Hero to summon a heroic spirit .She could have summoned a Heroic spirit similar to her (maybe an Amazon lol)
Anyway,Nasuverse works on the principle of parallel dimension.Magic of parallel dimension 2nd magic is wielded by Zelretch which also woks via Jewels. Jewels are an integral part of it .Incidentally he is also the one taught the Tohasakas Jewel magic .And Rin summoned Archer using a big Jewel .Coincidence?

Every time loop needs a beginning.That beginning is the timeline in which Archer was somebody else not Emiya. In that timeline Emiya Shirou made a pact with the world and became a guardian which started the loop.
Alternate Universe doesn't doesn't make it more complicated , it simplifies it.You cannot exist in the Throne before you joined it .That creates too may contradictions and in Nasuverse it's simpliy not tolerated ,by the various forces (Gaia,Alaya,etc).It also simplifies it for me too BTW.
Also an alternate timeline based weapon is used in HF by Rin.The Jewel Sword Zelretch sucks prana from other timelines and gives it to the wielder.
Hmm.. Judging by the description Rin gives of Archer when he is about to die, we can safely assume that he didn't get his hand taken away for real after his first projection. She says he has swords in both his hands and lets them go. And, Archer says his hands were taken away for a week, which means his hands weren't actually taken away but he just felt as though they were. Now, it is true that fate Shirou carries Illya back and does stuff with his hands later on but he could still feel as though his hands were taken away, could he not? Its not essential that you can't use your hands just because you feel as though they were taken away. Its just as Shirou explains in UBW, it is much like how your hands feel after temporary pause in circulation. You don't feel them, but you can still use them. Anyways, as we agree that Shirou from fate can't be Archer, it is of no consequence whether he had his arm taken away in the same manner as Archer or not lol.

hain? Which day did Aarcher say for a week? Fate Shirou was perfectly alright .Rin was even jealous of him the very next day when he went for magic practice as he had healed completely. BTW, even if Archer/Shiro did lose an arm we have Touko who will give him a new one.She gave Shirou an entire body in HF.
Regarding Saber, I find your explanation plausible but she's still more of a problem for Gaia than Archer could be because even if she's a spirit, she does have a body in this time and one in the past while Archer is simply a being that is beyond time itself.

It's because the information in her soul is frozen in time in her last moments.Hence she is forced to have a body.She's causing no contradiction by being summoned in our time.


Heh, Rikh, you are absolutely correct. He would have summoned Archer if he had done it before Rin. But if he didn't have Avalon in his body, he would be dead ten years before the war even began lol.

IMO Nope its not possible.An alternate timeline version of yourself summoned by somebody else is pushing what Gaia will tolerate.You summoning yourself will simply not be allowed by Gaia. Otherwise everyone will end up summoning themselves.Matou Kariya who used no artifact summoned Black Knight/Lancelot not an alternate version of himself.
The timelines are infinite, Kariya could have become a guardian in one of them .If there was such a loophole Magii would have certainly exploited it.

For Gaia/Alaya stuff I suggest you to read TYPE-MOON WIKIA entries on Gaia and Alaya .They'll be more clearer than I am in this matter.Try Fuyuki wiki too.

@Anium:Agreed.
@zweiter: ? In F/SN he was never possessed .In F/HA ...well .... someone else probably can explain it better than me
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Unread postby shirou12 » August 9th, 2008, 6:04 am

on my point of view, archer for me is still emiya. It is like this, the story talks about shirou and shirou was the main character on the other hand i assume that archer was emiya shirou from the future who realizes many things and wants to kill himself so he become like a time traveler and went back to different time until he finally got the right time where shirou is there. Since archer cant remember anything after he was summoned, archer thought that the time he was summoned was not the time where shirou is there until he meets him. (I think it is obvious that archer already know what he needs to do after he saw shirou and rin). Then from archer's point of view, the events happening was the incident where rin revives shirou and shirou enters the war. And then since he was something like a time-traveler, his personal agenda to kill himself was still there but cannot find a right timing because of events happened in fate. Since shirou on that time made a different decision which would result for becoming himself(archer) that could explain why shirou's story in the game become different and walks away towards archer's path. That is what i am thinking.
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Unread postby Raitei » August 9th, 2008, 8:46 am

zweiterversuch wrote:
Anium wrote:I don't think the war archer fought is the same shiro is fighting, logic says there has to be a first time, so there MUST be a parallel universe, archer can't be a servant if he did not make a contract, before the contract he had a life, we know he summoned saber, and rin saved him, nothing else.


Soooo why did Shirou get to be possesed or whatever by Avenger in the first place?
wasn't
Sakura supposed to be angra manyu? (Did I spell it right?)
shirou didn't get possessed by avenger. at least in the beginning. it's more of... avenger. he becomes shirou, not possessing him. he = shirou in the morning. at the same time, he = avenger in the night.

that really poses no problem, since avenger himself is void. zero. assume shirou is 1. no matter how many times you add 0 to 1, it's still 1.
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Unread postby password » August 10th, 2008, 4:06 pm

Inverted wrote:
password wrote:HUH? What do you mean? I will agree with anything you say, so long as its logical. Like I agree with the Gaia stuff but Gaia had nothing to do with the summoning, it will stop Archer from killing Shirou if it really is going to create a serious paradox but that's about it, it won't do anything before that.


It's the way Gaia works.It won't allow something to be summoned which would endanger it existence.Even tough they use the Holy Grail to summon it.The fact it happens in the Gaian System allows Gaia to stop the summoning of Archer if he were from the same timeline.
password wrote:Now, the game clearly implies that the first three days of the war went exactly the same for Archer as it does for Shirou. He got the pendant after being revived by Rin after being killed by Lancer for being a witness of the battle between Archer and Lancer. Archer himself tells Shirou that the pendant he gave to Rin is the same one that he found on the third day and preserved for the rest of his life. I don't think there's anything to question there. Well, since Archer says he got the pendant and he actually does tell us how and where, its obvious that he was saved the same way as Shirou. If anything happened differently in the war Archer was involved in, it has to have happened after he got the pendant. Like Rin probably didn't visit his house and Saber was summoned before he was cornered by Lancer again or anything like that. But the war went the same way for him as it does for Shirou for the first three days at least.


The game implies nothing other than the fact that he summoned Saber.How and when it's not given.We know nothing other than that. As for the pendant I'll explain in the following point.

I don't think Rin has any connection with any other heroic spirit, does she? She clearly tells that she was left nothing like that by her father. Now, as Archer has her pendant, he will always be the one Rin summons as he's the only heroic spirit Rin has any connection with. So, nobody else could have been the Archer class servant in the 5th war Archer participated as Shirou in. Besides, the fact that Archer was killed by Lancer when he was Shirou and was consequently saved by Rin already tells us that he saw the battle between Archer and Lancer and was discovered by Archer before Rin saved him. These two facts eliminate the possibility of any other servant being summoned by Rin in the war Archer participated as Shirou in. Thus, Archer was in the war where Shirou, his former self, was. I don't think there is any need to bring in parallel universes here because Rin clearly tells in one of the intermissions(Well, Captured Princess) that anyone that is elevated to the Guardian level is off the time axis and can be summoned into any time, even the time and the place he lived in and that she knows that Archer is the future form of Shirou. The game is only talking about the former self and the future self, why bring in further complexities such as parallel universes?


The is one critical difference between Archer's pendant and Shirou's pendant .Archer's pendant had no prana left in it at all, while Shirou's had small amounts renaming.
It's not necessary for you to possess an artifact of a Hero to summon a heroic spirit .She could have summoned a Heroic spirit similar to her (maybe an Amazon lol)
Anyway,Nasuverse works on the principle of parallel dimension.Magic of parallel dimension 2nd magic is wielded by Zelretch which also woks via Jewels. Jewels are an integral part of it .Incidentally he is also the one taught the Tohasakas Jewel magic .And Rin summoned Archer using a big Jewel .Coincidence?

Every time loop needs a beginning.That beginning is the timeline in which Archer was somebody else not Emiya. In that timeline Emiya Shirou made a pact with the world and became a guardian which started the loop.
Alternate Universe doesn't doesn't make it more complicated , it simplifies it.You cannot exist in the Throne before you joined it .That creates too may contradictions and in Nasuverse it's simpliy not tolerated ,by the various forces (Gaia,Alaya,etc).It also simplifies it for me too BTW.
Also an alternate timeline based weapon is used in HF by Rin.The Jewel Sword Zelretch sucks prana from other timelines and gives it to the wielder.
Hmm.. Judging by the description Rin gives of Archer when he is about to die, we can safely assume that he didn't get his hand taken away for real after his first projection. She says he has swords in both his hands and lets them go. And, Archer says his hands were taken away for a week, which means his hands weren't actually taken away but he just felt as though they were. Now, it is true that fate Shirou carries Illya back and does stuff with his hands later on but he could still feel as though his hands were taken away, could he not? Its not essential that you can't use your hands just because you feel as though they were taken away. Its just as Shirou explains in UBW, it is much like how your hands feel after temporary pause in circulation. You don't feel them, but you can still use them. Anyways, as we agree that Shirou from fate can't be Archer, it is of no consequence whether he had his arm taken away in the same manner as Archer or not lol.

hain? Which day did Aarcher say for a week? Fate Shirou was perfectly alright .Rin was even jealous of him the very next day when he went for magic practice as he had healed completely. BTW, even if Archer/Shiro did lose an arm we have Touko who will give him a new one.She gave Shirou an entire body in HF.
Regarding Saber, I find your explanation plausible but she's still more of a problem for Gaia than Archer could be because even if she's a spirit, she does have a body in this time and one in the past while Archer is simply a being that is beyond time itself.

It's because the information in her soul is frozen in time in her last moments.Hence she is forced to have a body.She's causing no contradiction by being summoned in our time.


Heh, Rikh, you are absolutely correct. He would have summoned Archer if he had done it before Rin. But if he didn't have Avalon in his body, he would be dead ten years before the war even began lol.

IMO Nope its not possible.An alternate timeline version of yourself summoned by somebody else is pushing what Gaia will tolerate.You summoning yourself will simply not be allowed by Gaia. Otherwise everyone will end up summoning themselves.Matou Kariya who used no artifact summoned Black Knight/Lancelot not an alternate version of himself.
The timelines are infinite, Kariya could have become a guardian in one of them .If there was such a loophole Magii would have certainly exploited it.

For Gaia/Alaya stuff I suggest you to read TYPE-MOON WIKIA entries on Gaia and Alaya .They'll be more clearer than I am in this matter.Try Fuyuki wiki too.

@Anium:Agreed.
@zweiter: ? In F/SN he was never possessed .In F/HA ...well .... someone else probably can explain it better than me


Ugh.. Gaia should have no problem even if he was Shirou from the same timeline because he is already off the timeline. As he is not within the timeline anymore, he doesn't contradict anything. The game even says that even if the past were to be changed, he would remain a Guardian. Now, all that talk about his fate being decided and him wanting Shirou to have a normal life at least at the end of UBW would be meaningless if he weren't from the same timeline.

Actually, the game only implies that Rin used her Jewel to save Archer as Shirou on the third night and nothing else. It could have been that he was saved for some other reason but since it is so explicit on time and stuff, I'd say its fairly safe to assume that he was saved after being killed by lancer, the same way it goes in the prologue. Regarding Saber, the game only implies that he had met her and that he knew her ideal. It is nowhere implied that he summoned Saber(Although, I must admit, it's pretty obvious). However, going your way, he needn't have summoned Saber to know her and her ideal, did he?

I know how the AU thing is used in HF. But, if it is not required to explain Archer and Shirou, and the game already gives a good enough explanation, that being the fact that Archer is from future from the same timeline but contradicts nothing because he is off the timeline, it'd be better if you kept away from it. I believe in not increasing the number of parameters required to explain something if it can be explained without it.

And like I said, Archer is probably just being his typical self, the one that exaggerates stuffs and talks cynical when he says his arm was taken away for a week and is probably not being literal. But, it is of no consequence as we already agree that he's not fate Shirou. (I feel like I have repeated myself for the umpteenth time there.)

If Saber's soul can be frozen in time and reincarnated in a later time through some summoning that is normally supposed to summon Guardians that are off the time axis, I don't think summoning of Archer, if done by Shirou, should cause any problem, as he is already off the time axis, and, as is stated in the game, and as has been repeated by myself at least a *insert any number here* times, is a being different from Shirou, even if he was the same Shirou in his life. The real Shirou would never be summoned, its just a copy. Please go through the game once again if you haven't understood this fact yet.

Yeah, one can summon heroes without any artifacts. But, the game explicitly states the procedure in which a matching spirit is searched for a master. If the master has an artifact belonging to servant, that servant will be preferred over all else. If the master lacks such an artifact, then a servant that has an artifact belonging to the master will be summoned. It is only if both these conditions aren't fulfilled for any servant that a servant matching the personality of the master will be summoned, which, I agree, would most likely be an Amazon in Rin's case lol.

And as for the Gaia stuff, I know most of it already. And I read the wikis a long time ago already. I just think you are too stuck up on requiring Gaia in action for everything lol. It is sort of a last resort, so, it won't and shouldn't be involved in normal activities and I don't think anything of that magnitude so as to threaten the world's existence occurred in FSN. They were all stopped by Shirou and co. before they got too serious. It'd have been interesting to see what would have happened if the Holy Grail had actually manifested. But, if the bad ending where Shirou is turned into a staff by Caster and finished off by Rin is an indication, even that won't be serious enough for Gaia to act. So, forget about it already.
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Unread postby Inverted » August 10th, 2008, 9:16 pm

*sigh* You and I have a very different intrepretation of Nasuverse . Suffice to say it's irreconcilable .If you want to we can continue this argument and I'll reply to the above post.I don't mind.But I see no point as I think even 10 pages from now we will be still arguing.I feel like a broken tape recorder.

And I need time to achieve 100% game completion in DMC 4 PC dammit :x :)
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Unread postby HeartCard » August 14th, 2008, 3:18 am

It is nowhere implied that he summoned Saber(Although, I must admit, it's pretty obvious). However, going your way, he needn't have summoned Saber to know her and her ideal, did he?


This leaves one question. Archer is FULLY aware of Avalon(or atleast, "Saber's Sheath", if he does not know it's name) and what it does as he brings it up during the "VS" scene in the UBW route. Being that "The Sheath is still active even after the contract was canceled!?" or something to that effect.

Isn't it only possible for Archer to have known that if, when he was shirou, he found out about the Sheath? Which would...probabley only if both:
1. While Saber is his servant(Promised).
2. If he traced the sheath(Ex: Against Gilgamesh as is done in the Fate route).

So umm...I'd still say there's QUITE a similiarity between Archer's life and the Fate Route Shirou.

I mean...Hasn't this topic basically cleared up that there is really no reason Fate Shirou cannot turn out to be Archer? The topic basically just says he won't and it's unlikely. I'd say it's atleast Somewhat likely.
ATLEAST 30% chance I would say.

Plus, Archer notions to Shirou that "We are his worst type of opponent, Emiya Shirou". And likewise states to Gilgamesh that he will kill him if he interferes with his plans(albeit one could easily argue this was a bluff).
Certainly, one could say Archer is fully aware that he is a well-enough counter for Gilgamesh. Which would point out that he might have faced him during his lifetime with UBW or Avalon.

Thoughts?
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Unread postby Raitei » August 15th, 2008, 8:52 am

HeartCard wrote:
It is nowhere implied that he summoned Saber(Although, I must admit, it's pretty obvious). However, going your way, he needn't have summoned Saber to know her and her ideal, did he?


This leaves one question. Archer is FULLY aware of Avalon(or atleast, "Saber's Sheath", if he does not know it's name) and what it does as he brings it up during the "VS" scene in the UBW route. Being that "The Sheath is still active even after the contract was canceled!?" or something to that effect.

Isn't it only possible for Archer to have known that if, when he was shirou, he found out about the Sheath? Which would...probabley only if both:
1. While Saber is his servant(Promised).
2. If he traced the sheath(Ex: Against Gilgamesh as is done in the Fate route).

So umm...I'd still say there's QUITE a similiarity between Archer's life and the Fate Route Shirou.

I mean...Hasn't this topic basically cleared up that there is really no reason Fate Shirou cannot turn out to be Archer? The topic basically just says he won't and it's unlikely. I'd say it's atleast Somewhat likely.
ATLEAST 30% chance I would say.

Plus, Archer notions to Shirou that "We are his worst type of opponent, Emiya Shirou". And likewise states to Gilgamesh that he will kill him if he interferes with his plans(albeit one could easily argue this was a bluff).
Certainly, one could say Archer is fully aware that he is a well-enough counter for Gilgamesh. Which would point out that he might have faced him during his lifetime with UBW or Avalon.

Thoughts?
I would say yes. he encountered gil. that's why those swords are in ubw. (as you know, ubw is mainly comprised of the sword from gate of babylon). but no, I think he isn't even aware of avalon's presence in his body. nor he can trace it.
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Unread postby Rikh » August 16th, 2008, 4:56 pm

Raitei wrote:
HeartCard wrote:
It is nowhere implied that he summoned Saber(Although, I must admit, it's pretty obvious). However, going your way, he needn't have summoned Saber to know her and her ideal, did he?


This leaves one question. Archer is FULLY aware of Avalon(or atleast, "Saber's Sheath", if he does not know it's name) and what it does as he brings it up during the "VS" scene in the UBW route. Being that "The Sheath is still active even after the contract was canceled!?" or something to that effect.

Isn't it only possible for Archer to have known that if, when he was shirou, he found out about the Sheath? Which would...probabley only if both:
1. While Saber is his servant(Promised).
2. If he traced the sheath(Ex: Against Gilgamesh as is done in the Fate route).

So umm...I'd still say there's QUITE a similiarity between Archer's life and the Fate Route Shirou.

I mean...Hasn't this topic basically cleared up that there is really no reason Fate Shirou cannot turn out to be Archer? The topic basically just says he won't and it's unlikely. I'd say it's atleast Somewhat likely.
ATLEAST 30% chance I would say.

Plus, Archer notions to Shirou that "We are his worst type of opponent, Emiya Shirou". And likewise states to Gilgamesh that he will kill him if he interferes with his plans(albeit one could easily argue this was a bluff).
Certainly, one could say Archer is fully aware that he is a well-enough counter for Gilgamesh. Which would point out that he might have faced him during his lifetime with UBW or Avalon.

Thoughts?
I would say yes. he encountered gil. that's why those swords are in ubw. (as you know, ubw is mainly comprised of the sword from gate of babylon). but no, I think he isn't even aware of avalon's presence in his body. nor he can trace it.

I believe he was aware, he did indeed follow the fate route somewhat in his life (although has some differences though) if he had known about the sheath, he probably learned it from saber or traced it, which i somewhat doubt. this is due to the fact that Shirou gained the ability to trace avalon without it being in his body after it was removed by saber. I am sure he and saber found out about avalon at some point. or within his life, which had a various amount of events, he himself discovered avalon was within himself keeping him alive. Although he probably doesnt have that strong of a connection to it, so he couldnt trace it then
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