Summon the heroic spirits in different classes (spoilers)

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Unread postby Kansho » September 10th, 2008, 10:05 am

Well, the typical way to interpretate that scene is that, Shirou traced Avalon and Saber activated it (her and Shirou's one).
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.
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Unread postby GreenSamurai » September 10th, 2008, 12:10 pm

Raitei wrote:so what's the difference? do you think status increase can help him survive against a 1-city-radius beam? (excalibur in full power is much greater than in the anime. deen's subpar effect fails so hard.)


If you say it like that then nothing can beat Saber as long as she spams her Haxlibur
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Unread postby Raitei » September 10th, 2008, 12:12 pm

GreenSamurai wrote:If you say it like that then nothing can beat Saber as long as she spams her Haxlibur
if only she can do that (without killing her master because of prana cost overburden), then yes. :P
then again, a certain anti-world cone sword can defeat haxcalibur with apparent ease.
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Unread postby Inverted » September 10th, 2008, 12:42 pm

Kansho wrote:Well, the typical way to interpretate that scene is that, Shirou traced Avalon and Saber activated it (her and Shirou's one).

I got my answer no problem :)
Raitei wrote:
GreenSamurai wrote:If you say it like that then nothing can beat Saber as long as she spams her Haxlibur
if only she can do that (without killing her master because of prana cost overburden), then yes. :P
then again, a certain anti-world cone sword can defeat haxcalibur with apparent ease.

Well then she can just spam Haxalon. Game over. :D
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 11th, 2008, 3:20 am

Not so fast Inverted.
There is one more thing that might work, emphasis on the MIGHT. Fragarach: The Sword of the Gorging War God.
Gae Bolg cannot break Avalon after deployment because it is nullified instantly (the moment Gae Bolg is invoked, it pierces the heart, but Avalon is already activated, thus Gae Bolg's curse is rendered useless because of its pathetic B rank), but Fragarach warps destiny and causality. So even after Avalon is unleashed, the altered end result will be Frafarach hit Sabre before she was able to activate Avalon. Now if this neat trick doesn't even work, then I will admit Avalon is just too hax.
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Unread postby Rikh » September 11th, 2008, 3:25 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Not so fast Inverted.
There is one more thing that might work, emphasis on the MIGHT. Fragarach: The Sword of the Gorging War God.
Gae Bolg cannot break Avalon after deployment because it is nullified instantly (the moment Gae Bolg is invoked, it pierces the heart, but Avalon is already activated, thus Gae Bolg's curse is rendered useless because of its pathetic B rank), but Fragarach warps destiny and causality. So even after Avalon is unleashed, the altered end result will be Frafarach hit Sabre before she was able to activate Avalon. Now if this neat trick doesn't even work, then I will admit Avalon is just too hax.


Sabers luck check goes high enough to stop it i believe
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 11th, 2008, 3:34 am

I think Fragarach requires no luck check, since it is supposed to be a skill of the Gods. Also, I think Sabre actually got nuked by one of these and died in one of the loops of F/HA.
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Unread postby Raitei » September 11th, 2008, 7:10 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Not so fast Inverted.
There is one more thing that might work, emphasis on the MIGHT. Fragarach: The Sword of the Gorging War God.
Gae Bolg cannot break Avalon after deployment because it is nullified instantly (the moment Gae Bolg is invoked, it pierces the heart, but Avalon is already activated, thus Gae Bolg's curse is rendered useless because of its pathetic B rank), but Fragarach warps destiny and causality. So even after Avalon is unleashed, the altered end result will be Frafarach hit Sabre before she was able to activate Avalon. Now if this neat trick doesn't even work, then I will admit Avalon is just too hax.
lolwhut? fragarach = counter. avalon = supportive = no attack. no attack = no counter. it's as simple as that.

saber got owned in f/ha because she used haxcalibur, not haxalon.
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Unread postby GreenSamurai » September 11th, 2008, 10:09 am

Saber can only activate Haxalon when Shirou is her Master,right?I don't think she activated it in the fourth war...
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Unread postby Rikh » September 11th, 2008, 8:56 pm

GreenSamurai wrote:Saber can only activate Haxalon when Shirou is her Master,right?I don't think she activated it in the fourth war...



oh it was activated.... I think she was forced to use it twice in the previous war

Erm i thought you said Haxcaliba.... nvm. I dont know if she activated Avalon then, although she was summoned with it as a catalyst. Although her master had the haxalon in possesion after the 4th war ended, so he might have kept a strong hold on it
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Unread postby Raitei » September 12th, 2008, 12:43 am

GreenSamurai wrote:Saber can only activate Haxalon when Shirou is her Master,right?I don't think she activated it in the fourth war...
she didn't. heck, even I doubt she knows of its existence even when kiritsugu was holding it all along that time.
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby AvatarofRage » September 12th, 2008, 6:42 am

Raitei wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Not so fast Inverted.
There is one more thing that might work, emphasis on the MIGHT. Fragarach: The Sword of the Gorging War God.
Gae Bolg cannot break Avalon after deployment because it is nullified instantly (the moment Gae Bolg is invoked, it pierces the heart, but Avalon is already activated, thus Gae Bolg's curse is rendered useless because of its pathetic B rank), but Fragarach warps destiny and causality. So even after Avalon is unleashed, the altered end result will be Frafarach hit Sabre before she was able to activate Avalon. Now if this neat trick doesn't even work, then I will admit Avalon is just too hax.
lolwhut? fragarach = counter. avalon = supportive = no attack. no attack = no counter. it's as simple as that.

saber got owned in f/ha because she used haxcalibur, not haxalon.



Actually, Fragarach would still work, as it's specification is not an attack, but an enemies 'strongest ability', for instance its stated that Fragarach can kill Berserker once, under any circumstances, since he always has God Hand activated.
How Fragarach works is It both kills the enemy and nullifies their attack, provided it's one of their most powerful (Otherwise the attack returned is just D rank). So if Fragarach was used against Saber using Avalon, it would negate Avalon, and kill Saber.
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Unread postby Raitei » September 12th, 2008, 6:49 am

AvatarofRage wrote:Actually, Fragarach would still work, as it's specification is not an attack, but an enemies 'strongest ability', for instance its stated that Fragarach can kill Berserker once, under any circumstances, since he always has God Hand activated.
How Fragarach works is It both kills the enemy and nullifies their attack, provided it's one of their most powerful (Otherwise the attack returned is just D rank). So if Fragarach was used against Saber using Avalon, it would negate Avalon, and kill Saber.
no. it's not like that.

fuyuki wiki wrote:
Fragarach - The Sword of the Gorging War God.
Full name - Answerer Fragarach - That Which Comes Later Cuts First, the Sword of the Gorging War God.


Sword of Retrograde. The ultimate counter-attack weapon. A conceptual curse that warps destiny. A divine trick that uses time as a weapon. Really the equivalent of a bolt of light when used but the extra effect that it makes is what makes it useful. Warps causality to always strike the opponent right before he unleashes his ultimate attack; even if the attack of the enemy is made first, the fact that it happens is rewritten so that Fragarach hits it before. What Fragarach gorges out isn't the heart of the enemy, but the destiny of both user and enemy simultaneously killing each other. The attack of the enemy that's released is wiped out as it's returned into an attack that "couldn't happen," the law of the world, the absolute system of time. After all, no matter how powerful or fast the attack is, it won't do anything because the enemy that is defeated first won't have a chance to attack.

type moon wiki's explanation is misleading. but you can see that it works against a strike.
TYPE-MOON Wiki wrote:
It can only be used at full potential against an enemy's most powerful strike, otherwise its power is reduced to that of a mere Rank D attack.


ultimately, fragarach won't work. why? no attack = no counter. also,
fuyuki wiki wrote:Avalon - The Ever Distant Utopia
The normal ability is healing injuries and preventing aging. Activation as a Noble Phantasm causes it to come apart in hundreds of pieces and completely protect its user from all forms of interference, a mobile fortress. Shuts (not blocks or reflects, but shuts) out all physical interference, transliners from parallel worlds, and multidimensional (multiplanar; as far as the 6th) contact; including all of the five magics. A Noble Phantasm on the level of magic. The greatest protection in the world.

negation is impossible since saber has already "shuts" all interference.
fuyuki wiki wrote:
As for it's effects against opponents with abilities other than that, one thing to keep in mind is that concepts are defeated by concepts.
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby GreenSamurai » September 12th, 2008, 8:48 am

and so this proves that Avalon truly deserves to be named Haxalon..
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Unread postby Kansho » September 12th, 2008, 12:30 pm

Fragarach worked against God Hand, but only killed Berserker once... that happens in Fate/hollow ataraxia.

Even so, I think that Fragarach will not work against Haxalon. Why? "Shuts out all physical interference, transliners from parallel worlds, and multidimensional contact; including all of the five magics. At level of true magic blablablablaing..."
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 14th, 2008, 7:42 pm

Well, I guess it makes sense. For Fragarach to work, the opposing Noble Phantasm must be activated. However, since the activation of Avalon prevents all destiny interference, Fragarach will be blocked. Avalon is truly potent, but there is no rule says Sabre will win once Avalon is activated. Such an amazing barrier will for sure have an obscenely high up-keep cost. If a servant can endure/block Sabre's assault for the duration of Avalon, there is still a chance to defeat Sabre. It all comes down to whose master's got more mana, and whether Sabre's opponent has access to defensive Noble Phantasm that can block above-A-rank assaults. In the 5th war...

Assasin/True Assasin: No
Rider: No for sure, we have seen her taking out the trump card and still lost... not sure about how much the mystic eye is going to factor in, but I bet not much.
Archer: Rho Ais... pretty sure no. Gae Bolg is B+, and it almost came through... so no.
Lancer: No
Berserker: No, if one doesn't do him in, two blasts will.
Caster: As much I would like to say no, she is an unknown. She can teleport, stockpile mana, and has a pretty good conceptual shield. She has never shown all the tricks in her bag, and always dies for some stupid reason (my-body-as-a-shield for Soichirou and being ambushed by Archer).
Gilgamesh: If anyone is going to have a chance, it is this guy, provided that the plot mechanism doesn't kick in, and Sabre unleashes her ultimate Noble Phantasm "Nasu's Favour - The Heroine Always Wins".
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