Questions after playing too many times (MANY SPOILERS)

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Questions after playing too many times (MANY SPOILERS)

Unread postby matthewfarenheit » July 31st, 2008, 12:14 am

First of all, thanks for the cool patch. I wouldn't be able to enjoy the game at all if it wouldn't be for your hard work.

That said, I have quite a lot of questions. Be kind and try to answer them, as I find it very fulfilling to see how everything fits together perfectly on such a nicely finished work that is Fate. They contain lots of SPOILERS on the three paths, so be warned:

Fate Spoliers:
Why does it take Archer SO LONG to regenerate his wound against Saber on Fate? Saber seems to regenerate overnight just fine, wounds as deep to almost torn her in half, with the only exception being Lancer's Gae Bolg wound (and that's because it's cursed that way). Are Archer's regenerative abilities that bad? Or Saber's so good? Or maybe Invisible Air was cursed as well (LOL)? Please don't say "Archer was almost torn in half and Saber was barely scratched", as Archer and Saber's wounds aren't described as being disproportionately different: if anything, is Saber the one that's hurt the most.


Fate and UBW spoilers:
In UWB, when Shirou first projects Archer's blades he spends the following days almost as a maimed; on the other hand, when he first projects Caliburn in Fate (that, I must say, seems plenty more powerful that Kanshou and Bakuya, being able to kill Berserker 7 times in a row) he seems perfectly ok just hours after the incident. What's the difference between these two "first projections" that made him feel so differently in both ocassions?


In Fate, when Shirou starts his "switch" (the hammer going down and all), always being in a miserable state (being stabbed and kicked by Rider or being severely burned and twice swallowed by the visible curse of the Holy Grail) he seems to regain superhuman levels of stamina, forgetting all about his injures (or giving them but little importance, just for flavor reasons in the narrative). What happens exactly? Is the Magic Circuit activation some kind of "elixir" item? In the same fashion, in UBW, he does almost the same thing by reciting the first line of the UBW spell ("I am the bone of my sword"): it makes it seem like a "round 2" activation, signaling the turn of the tides in both his fight against Archer and against Gilgamesh. Are the switch activation's and the first line of UBW spell equivalents in Emiya Shirou's body and mind?


Let's suppose that Fate or UBW Emiyas don't suceed and Kirei/Gilgamesh get away with their Grail activations and world destruction schemes (In fact, I have to say that Kirei's scheme isn't much about world's destruction unlike UBW Gilgamesh, but he does intend to cause havoc by making people suffer to see "their last spark of life" - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). If that happens, the world would actually be destroyed or some Nasuverse creature would be able to stop an already fully activated, infinitely powerful Holy Grail? If so, how?


All three paths spoilers:
I have readed quite a lot about HF, while I haven't actually played it. The thing goes as this: knowing that Shirou is able to destroy an even more powerful, dark version of Berserker by having himself one of Archer's arms attached to his body, that as far as I readed took a heavy toll on Shirou to use, why didn't Archer win against Berserker on the Fate path? I mean, he was already fully healed from Saber's wound, he can use his own magic unfettered (from Archer's in-game details: "A blacksmith hero, who can use a Reality Marble without penalty to forge numerous weapons") and he surely had huge amounts of mana available from Rin's reserves, if his own wasn't enough (remember that Shirou and Saber share her mana and they're able to use both UBW and Excalibur at the same time). This question actually makes me remember one of Velox jokes on his Fate parody... Anyways, couldn't Archer in the very least project Nine Lives, for a lack of more original metods to vanquish Heracles?



I suppose that's all for now. I had lot's of questions in mind but now I can't remember anymore... maybe I have subconsiously answered them all on my second or third playtrough while waiting for HF to be released. I'm awaiting for your answers!
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Unread postby Raitei » July 31st, 2008, 12:33 am

#1 :
class difference. saber's considered the most outstanding of all the servant classes. prana level also takes into account. if I'm not mistaken, archer was also penalized in his status after rin's usage of first command spell. and not to mention it's slightly hinted that archer's wound IS worse than saber's, that forces rin to make him disappear. servants aren't going to die from fatal wounds (e.g. losing a limb) ; thus it's a secondary means of killing them. however, if the wound is so severe, one could not help but prevent the servant from taking another injuries, just as rin did. saber, on the other hand, had successfully avoided gae bolg hitting her vital point by fate alteration caused by her high luck.


#2 :
do you not remember that shirou fought just after he traced kansho and bakuya, all by himself? and he fought against a reinforced kuzuki, who was able to defeat even saber. saber aided him in fate and that's more than enough reason why shirou's body took longer to recover after his first fight in ubw. we are talking about physical conditions here, not entirely prana condition and mental state.


#3 :
magic circuits do boost one's physical condition (as we can see in vs gil and archer fight) , even though not dramatically. the only reason why shirou seem to have "superhuman endurance" in fate is avalon. you can stab him, tear him apart, and he'll regenerate back on. just like that. and the fact that "his body is made out of swords" helps him endure the wounds caused to him.


#4 :
yes, there is a person who is able to stop / dismantle a fully functioned grail. if we're talking about the lesser grail, destroying the physical form like in fate and ubw is enough (e.g. archer's sword rain or excalibur). however, there's only one person who can stop a fully functioned greater grail, that is ilyasviel von einzbern, as she IS the grail itself.


#5 :
archer didn't fully unleash his potential when fighting berserker. heck, he didn't even use greater moves such as ubw or nine lives blade works. the anime sucks at covering facts like this. it tends to make up its own facts. rin had told him to buy them some time, and he did it. no more, no less. his line about kicking berserker's ass is just a mere GAR. the reason why archer didn't finish berserker off is (I assume) because he cares deeply about ilya. if he were to finish off berserker right now, ilya would be left unprotected, so he left her to shirou and the others to take care of his dirty job. also, (I think) he decided to let his own self go, and if he succeeded in defeating berserker, archer wouldn't have any other options but to continue trying to kill shirou.


ps : your avatar seems to exceed the maximum size allowed. it's 120 x 120 px, while this board only allows avatars up to 100 x 100 px. :P
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » July 31st, 2008, 1:23 am

Thanks for your answers! Let's see:
Raitei wrote:#1 :
class difference. saber's considered the most outstanding of all the servant classes. prana level also takes into account. if I'm not mistaken, archer was also penalized in his status after rin's usage of first command spell. and not to mention it's slightly hinted that archer's wound IS worse than saber's, that forces rin to make him disappear. servants aren't going to die from fatal wounds (e.g. losing a limb) ; thus it's a secondary means of killing them. however, if the wound is so severe, one could not help but prevent the servant from taking another injuries, just as rin did. saber, on the other hand, had successfully avoided gae bolg hitting her vital point by fate alteration caused by her high luck.

You missed my point: I meant that Saber's wounds taken from Berserker's sword or Gilgamesh's Ea, common cutting wounds with no curse at all, were depicted as extremely deep and serious, but regenerated overnight nevertheless. The Gae Bolg example was made to contrast as "the only wound that really hindered saber trough the 5th holy grail war" as it was a CURSED wound and thus, harder to regenerate (they explicity say that the morning after the first Berserker fight on the Fate path): we can't compare that to an Invisible Air's inflicted wound. I do, however, believe that class difference is a good argument, but maybe not convincing enough: remember that Saber is an incomplete summoning (terribly hinted thta her stats are thus lowered) and that Archer's stats are lowered ONLY if he disobeys Rin's every command (at the first encounter with Saber, AFAIK he wasn't disobeying at all).


Raitei wrote:#2 :
do you not remember that shirou fought just after he traced kansho and bakuya, all by himself? and he fought against a reinforced kuzuki, who was able to defeat even saber. saber aided him in fate and that's more than enough reason why shirou's body took longer to recover after his first fight in ubw. we are talking about physical conditions here, not entirely prana condition and mental state.

Well, it is a good reason, but as far as I can remember he says that his left side of the body feels numb and Archer gives and explanation that is purely magical based and concludes "you were too greedy in trying to trace my swords in your first try". They don't state "Kuzuki left you injured and Avalon is lagging regenerating your bones". It's quite safe to assume that the reason for his numbness is purely magical.


Raitei wrote:#3 :
magic circuits do boost one's physical condition (as we can see in vs gil and archer fight) , even though not dramatically. the only reason why shirou seem to have "superhuman endurance" in fate is avalon. you can stab him, tear him apart, and he'll regenerate back on. just like that. and the fact that "his body is made out of swords" helps him endure the wounds caused to him.

Oh, good, nothing to argue here. Thanks for the answer!

Raitei wrote:#4 :
yes, there is a person who is able to stop / dismantle a fully functioned grail. if we're talking about the lesser grail, destroying the physical form like in fate and ubw is enough (e.g. archer's sword rain or excalibur). however, there's only one person who can stop a fully functioned greater grail, that is ilyasviel von einzbern, as she IS the grail itself.

I was, more than anything, pointing at those things that I have not read neither do I know much about, namely beast of Gaia, Alaya or whatever you call it. Would these Nasuverse beings interfere and, maybe, successfully stop a fully functional Grail if, for example, UBW undead Illya didn't come back from the grave to stop the Holy Grail as well? (sorry, had to go for a zombie joke)


Raitei wrote:#5 :
archer didn't fully unleash his potential when fighting berserker. heck, he didn't even use greater moves such as ubw or nine lives blade works. the anime sucks at covering facts like this. it tends to make up its own facts. rin had told him to buy them some time, and he did it. no more, no less. his line about kicking berserker's ass is just a mere GAR. the reason why archer didn't finish berserker off is (I assume) because he cares deeply about ilya. if he were to finish off berserker right now, ilya would be left unprotected, so he left her to shirou and the others to take care of his dirty job. also, (I think) he decided to let his own self go, and if he succeeded in defeating berserker, archer wouldn't have any other options but to continue trying to kill shirou.

Well, we agree that, in order to lose, Archer must not have been using his full potential. The reason, it's up to interpretation, but at least that's clear. And please, I'm not mixing Anime and VN's arguments: this was a purely VN's question.

Raitei wrote:ps : your avatar seems to exceed the maximum size allowed. it's 120 x 120 px, while this board only allows avatars up to 100 x 100 px. :P

Sorry! It's fixed now, so we can say it never happened :P

BTW...
can Archer trace chunks of wood and glass? How in heavens did he repair Tohsaka livingroom in the prologue? I think they made a point that Emiya Shirou was useless at any kind of restoration magic, or any magic but his own, so there's a heavily implied fact that Archer may be useless on that aspect as well.
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Unread postby Raitei » July 31st, 2008, 1:51 am

#1 :
look at the servant status screen. saber's stats are far superior to archer's, be as it saber's hindrance because she isn't "dead" yet, or that she has shirou as her master. saber is the most outstanding of servant classes. even I remembered something about her regenerative ability being faster than average even though without avalon.

fuyuki wiki wrote:Saber - Servant type in which all stats must be no less than standard, excluding MGI, in order to qualify.

Archer - Servant type with low base stats but made up by skills and Noble Phantasms.

I remember somewhere along the line that servant regenerative ability is greatly affected by skill, or raw servant status besides np.


#2 :
magically speaking, shirou has more affinity to caliburn at that time (vs berserker) compared to kansho and bakuya in his first trial. he had seen that sword several times in his dream, and is attached to it. whereas he had only seen kansho and bakuya briefly when archer was using them. he even had ever traced bows and arrows before fighting berserker, so I think that's a good warm-up compared to just reinforcing a wooden sword. know what'll happen to you when you try to do some heavy activities without any warm-ups?


#4 :
that depends. according to what I've seen, no one would want world destruction, such as literally thus far. and if something endangers the existence of humanity, beasts of alaya will act for sure.
TYPE-MOON Wiki wrote:Guardians have no free will, they are only a "force". They come out only to protect humans, when a "factor of destruction of the world" appears; they are the extermination weapons that will annihilate that factor. If humans happen to be the "factor" of their own destruction, then they become the target of that extermination. In brief, by killing all humans on the place they appear at, they save humanity as a whole. They are anti-heroes, cleaners called out when something is causing harm.


also...
archer can certainly trace / reinforce things. I believe he can also do simple things like repairing the broken living room with ease. the only reason why shirou can't do it is because he is a pure n00b. rin clearly stated that. archer, on the other hand, is not.
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Unread postby Einherjar » July 31st, 2008, 4:10 am

Raitei wrote:#1 :
look at the servant status screen. saber's stats are far superior to archer's, be as it saber's hindrance because she isn't "dead" yet, or that she has shirou as her master. saber is the most outstanding of servant classes. even I remembered something about her regenerative ability being faster than average even though without avalon.


#2 :
magically speaking, shirou has more affinity to caliburn at that time (vs berserker) compared to kansho and bakuya in his first trial. he had seen that sword several times in his dream, and is attached to it. whereas he had only seen kansho and bakuya briefly when archer was using them. he even had ever traced bows and arrows before fighting berserker, so I think that's a good warm-up compared to just reinforcing a wooden sword. know what'll happen to you when you try to do some heavy activities without any warm-ups?




1:
You still can't cover that fact that it's TOO long. it took about a week. It feels like he's conveniently hurt for plot development. Also remember that Rin has uber amount of magic circuits.


2:
I'm beginning to question. Even though Shirou never did dream about Kanshou and Bakuya, he did really like the sword. He taken special note on it. From what I see, He treasure the twin blade as much as Caliburn in fate. Also, Shirou did block a barrage from berserker, which is much worse than Kuzuki imo.


EDIT: oops lol
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Unread postby inferno_flamex » July 31st, 2008, 5:00 am

1)

I kinda have the feeling that Archer healed up just fine halfway through... But its more like because he knows who he and shirou really are.. He kinda 'pretended' to still be in an injured state... Just so that he could 'teach' shirou about his own powers... And... Well.. He could 'lie' about it to Rin simply because...

*Prepared against all the Rin fanboys*

Well.. Rin can kinda be abit oblivious about such things... Basically, things that she seems 'are not to be bothered'...

OH!.. And now that i just thought about it... This could be the scenario...
Since Archer 'lied' about his condition.. He is continously putting himself under pressure because of the command spell. So technically.. He did not recover on purpose, by using the command effect to his advantage.. Or rather Disadvantage... Because he found out about his memories and Shirou and had wanted to make sure that he would NOT be fighting any servernts anytime soon, so that he could teach Shirou!


Oh and Ein... Fix your 2nd spoiler...
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Unread postby Raitei » July 31st, 2008, 7:26 am

Einherjar wrote:1:
You still can't cover that fact that it's TOO long. it took about a week. It feels like he's conveniently hurt for plot development. Also remember that Rin has uber amount of magic circuits.
well, he's probably recovered even when shirou talked to him. whether he's ready to fight or not, it's a different thing. and archer himself even said that even if his wound has recovered, he was still not ready for another fight, so he'd stay an observer for awhile.

Einherjar wrote:2:
I'm beginning to question. Even though Shirou never did dream about Kanshou and Bakuya, he did really like the sword. He taken special note on it. From what I see, He treasure the twin blade as much as Caliburn in fate. Also, Shirou did block a barrage from berserker, which is much worse than Kuzuki imo.


EDIT: oops lol
but at that point, has he? he only copied kansho and bakuya because he was in desperation. as the line says, "a weapon... I need a weapon! oh yeah, just like the ones he wielded...". and shirou didn't block the barrage for long before saber came to his aid.
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Unread postby Kansho » July 31st, 2008, 11:20 am

4#:
The real problem with a complete Grail and Kirei's true objective it's said in the Heaven's Feel route. And nobody could stop that when it "born".

5#
1st: Black Berserker is weaker than the original. Blind and deaf, he only relies in his instinct.

2nd: Shirou wasn't even able to fully defeat Black Berserker alone. Shirou performs 8 blows of Nine Lives on him, then Berserker attacks him. Shirou notices than he can evade Berserker attack, he's faster than Berserker, but the blow will neverthless kill him even that way. But Ilya pop out and Berserker stopped, letting Shirou to finish him with Nine Lives ninth blow, killing the last remaining Berseker's life.

3rd: Archer can't beat Berserker. Unlimited Blade Works, against a normal opponent it's only an ability that's somewhat troublesome. That Reality Marble only it's a trump card against Gilgamesh and his Gate of Babylon, as he need to pick up the weapon from the Gate. And we even didn't know if Archer really used UBW against Berserker in Fate. The most efficient way to kill Berserker is a powerful weapon/skill, but we didn't now either if Archer knows about Nine Lives. When Shirou perform it, the memory of the skill was in Berseker's stone-sword that he traced at that moment, so probably Archer never noticed that or even never traced that sword to begin with (it isn't even a Noble Phantasm, it's a rock!).
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Unread postby Raitei » July 31st, 2008, 12:04 pm

Kansho wrote:
When Shirou perform it, the memory of the skill was in Berseker's stone-sword that he traced at that moment, so probably Archer never noticed that or even never traced that sword to begin with (it isn't even a Noble Phantasm, it's a rock!).
so when shirou traced his axe sword, must we say it's purely coincidental that he managed to use nine lives blade works to begin with?

and I think archer still has far greater chance to finish off berserker, if only he unleashed his full potential at that time... just trace caliburn and 7 lives are blown off. the rest... should be able to manage.
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Unread postby Inverted » July 31st, 2008, 5:13 pm

Kansho wrote:
3rd: Archer can't beat Berserker. Unlimited Blade Works, against a normal opponent it's only an ability that's somewhat troublesome. That Reality Marble only it's a trump card against Gilgamesh and his Gate of Babylon, as he need to pick up the weapon from the Gate. And we even didn't know if Archer really used UBW against Berserker in Fate. The most efficient way to kill Berserker is a powerful weapon/skill, but we didn't now either if Archer knows about Nine Lives. When Shirou perform it, the memory of the skill was in Berseker's stone-sword that he traced at that moment, so probably Archer never noticed that or even never traced that sword to begin with (it isn't even a Noble Phantasm, it's a rock!).

It's pretty strange to assume the fact that what Shirou can defeat his servant version cannot.

What Archer is is Shioru at max potential.

Now about the battles Archer-Berserker,Shirou-Black Berserker.Some of my assumptions and arguments

.Archer with his eye of mind and years of experience must have surely known about rock sword and Nine lives.His eye of the mind opens the roads to victory even from 1% chance of success .Not to mention Shirou downloaded it from Archer arm. So Archer not using it is Kinda strange rock or not.This is guy who uses every trick in the book to defeat his opponent.
So I assume the following things
1.How can a rock penetrate God Hand. Its not even a Noble Phantasm. And God Hand is a divine curse. Hence Black Berserker with his polluted body may not even have God Hand or at least its defence against Noble Phantasm above B rank.The connecting weapon has to be above B to penetrate God Hand .Hence Archer never used it against Berserker as opposed to Black Berserker who had no defence.Nine lives only has nine strikes too. What about three other lives.

2. Now assuming Black Berserker had full God hand .We already know using against him , who is so utterly weak, itself is suicidal. Now Archer is facing Berserker at full power, speed and instinct. So if he had used nine lives he would have been killed before he could take even 5 lives from Berserker ,i.e.,Normal method of killing berserker taking his lives one by one with different noble phantasms will land him with mor lives,i.e, 6 rather than using Nine lives where he would gotten lesser than that before being killed.Hence Archer chose more efficient method.

3. Or maybe the answer is
Fool!! Don't ask questions.Just enjoy.
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Unread postby Einherjar » July 31st, 2008, 5:34 pm

Raitei wrote:
but at that point, has he? he only copied kansho and bakuya because he was in desperation. as the line says, "a weapon... I need a weapon! oh yeah, just like the ones he wielded...". and shirou didn't block the barrage for long before saber came to his aid.

Shirou said something like:
"I never seen such beautiful swords. They not like demonic swords, made for fame and destruction, but simply because someone wants to make them", etc. (that's his first impression of the sword) And He also said about being greedy thinking about that weapon. Kansho and Bakuya are indeed special swords.
Also, Shirou was hit to a point where he was flying. FLYING. It's much worse than Kuzuki
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Unread postby Kansho » July 31st, 2008, 6:30 pm

Inverted wrote:
Kansho wrote:
3rd: Archer can't beat Berserker. Unlimited Blade Works, against a normal opponent it's only an ability that's somewhat troublesome. That Reality Marble only it's a trump card against Gilgamesh and his Gate of Babylon, as he need to pick up the weapon from the Gate. And we even didn't know if Archer really used UBW against Berserker in Fate. The most efficient way to kill Berserker is a powerful weapon/skill, but we didn't now either if Archer knows about Nine Lives. When Shirou perform it, the memory of the skill was in Berseker's stone-sword that he traced at that moment, so probably Archer never noticed that or even never traced that sword to begin with (it isn't even a Noble Phantasm, it's a rock!).

It's pretty strange to assume the fact that what Shirou can defeat his servant version cannot.

What Archer is is Shioru at max potential.

Now about the battles Archer-Berserker,Shirou-Black Berserker.Some of my assumptions and arguments

.Archer with his eye of mind and years of experience must have surely known about rock sword and Nine lives.His eye of the mind opens the roads to victory even from 1% chance of success .Not to mention Shirou downloaded it from Archer arm. So Archer not using it is Kinda strange rock or not.This is guy who uses every trick in the book to defeat his opponent.
So I assume the following things
1.How can a rock penetrate God Hand. Its not even a Noble Phantasm. And God Hand is a divine curse. Hence Black Berserker with his polluted body may not even have God Hand or at least its defence against Noble Phantasm above B rank.The connecting weapon has to be above B to penetrate God Hand .Hence Archer never used it against Berserker as opposed to Black Berserker who had no defence.Nine lives only has nine strikes too. What about three other lives.

2. Now assuming Black Berserker had full God hand .We already know using against him , who is so utterly weak, itself is suicidal. Now Archer is facing Berserker at full power, speed and instinct. So if he had used nine lives he would have been killed before he could take even 5 lives from Berserker ,i.e.,Normal method of killing berserker taking his lives one by one with different noble phantasms will land him with mor lives,i.e, 6 rather than using Nine lives where he would gotten lesser than that before being killed.Hence Archer chose more efficient method.

3. Or maybe the answer is
Fool!! Don't ask questions.Just enjoy.
Shirou didn't "downloaded" the Nine Lives skill from the Archer arm, he downloaded it from Berserker's sword. And according to Shirou, Nine Lives destroyed "80% of Berserker's body". Probably, the remaining lifes were killed by Black Saber when she fighted against Berserker previously. And the game says "The giant used up his final life and this time returned to dust." so, it's obvious that God Hand is still working. Nine Lives is an all-purpose Noble Phantasm that can adapt itself depending on the circumstance and target. Shirou used the anti-unit version, a pumelling series of 9 strikes at "the speed of gods". And is obvious that Nine Lives Rank is above B.

Archer can't beat Berserker, and he didn't used Nine Lives at all as we exactly know the attacks he performed into Berserker. But I think that if he used Nine Lives, he would ended killing Berserker more times, as we are talking about a really powerful Noble Phantasm (Heracles most powerful NP) that impacts at "the speed of gods" (AKA: 8 times faster than the speed of sound). And I didn't know when you got that Nine Lives kill... nine of Berserker lives. We even saw in Fate route an example of single blow that killed him seven times. What we know is that when Shirou used 8 blows of Nine Lives, Berserker ended with a single remaining life.

But as I say, Archer isn't even close to be the most powerful Servant, and Berserker is close, indeed. Shirou defeated Black Berserker thanks to Ilya, afterall. So Archer can't beat Berserker.

Nine Lives scene at Realta Nua (a must see... Realta Nua is so cool compared to the "beh" PC one.) - http://nicovideo.jp/watch/sm2801455
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Unread postby Inverted » July 31st, 2008, 8:11 pm

Kansho wrote:
Shirou didn't "downloaded" the Nine Lives skill from the Archer arm, he downloaded it from Berserker's sword.

No no what I told was that he downloaded the rock-sword from Archer arm,i.e, the rock sword was already present in his UBW and it was downloaded by Shirou .So Archer may have already known it.

And is obvious that Nine Lives Rank is above B.

Nine lives maybe above B but its a rock weapon he is using it with!It's a skill. So I assume you're telling only rank of NP matters regardless of it being Skill or weapon?

Archer can't beat Berserker, and he didn't used Nine Lives at all as we exactly know the attacks he performed into Berserker. But I think that if he used Nine Lives, he would ended killing Berserker more times, as we are talking about a really powerful Noble Phantasm (Heracles most powerful NP) that impacts at "the speed of gods" (AKA: 8 times faster than the speed of sound).

Shirou would have died against Black Berserker if it weren't for Illya. Archer arm Shirou is basically Archer level.
If he struggled this much against a extremely weak Black Berserker , imagine what would happen against Beserker .
What I am telling is Archer didn't use Nine Lives on Berserker as he woudn't be even able to complete the attack .
He wouldn't be able to even get the 6 lives he got with normal method and would have been squished flat in the middle of performing Nine Lives.He maybe be killed before he could land one blow.

This seems to me the only logical explanation.Archer uses trick in the book .For him not knowing Nine lives seems means he was extremely stupid. Which is OOC.
And I doubt Shirou traced it on a whim or it was pure chance which is OOC. Archer/Shirou have a method to their madness .
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Unread postby Kansho » July 31st, 2008, 8:26 pm

Not really, Shirou traced the weapon because of the whole "I need something BIG" and just saw it at Berserker's hand. He traced it without Archer arm, then unwrapped the holy cloth, and traced the sword again. So he didn't downloaded the sword from Archer arm, he saw it and used the superior tracing of Archer arm to reproduce it.

But that's my point aswell, Shiro and Archer can't beat Berserker under normal circumstances.
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Unread postby Einherjar » July 31st, 2008, 8:31 pm

Kansho wrote:
Not really, Shirou traced the weapon because of the whole "I need something BIG" and just saw it at Berserker's hand. He traced it without Archer arm, then unwrapped the holy cloth, and traced the sword again. So he didn't downloaded the sword from Archer arm, he saw it and used the superior tracing of Archer arm to reproduce it.

But that's my point aswell, Shiro and Archer can't beat Berserker under normal circumstances.

But Archer is able to use mass-projection, right? He would have done the same thing Gil did, even if NP's rank is reduced to one, there are still many weapons capable. I can see Berserker as superior, but I still have questions.
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Unread postby Kansho » July 31st, 2008, 8:36 pm

He isn't able to do it at Gil level.... and Gil won because the Enkidu.

There isn't really MANY weapons that surpass A level... + Archer projections lose a whole rank.

And... Berserker is far better than Archer stat-wise.
Last edited by Kansho on July 31st, 2008, 8:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby Raitei » July 31st, 2008, 8:40 pm

Einherjar wrote:Shirou said something like:
"I never seen such beautiful swords. They not like demonic swords, made for fame and destruction, but simply because someone wants to make them", etc. (that's his first impression of the sword) And He also said about being greedy thinking about that weapon. Kansho and Bakuya are indeed special swords.
Also, Shirou was hit to a point where he was flying. FLYING. It's much worse than Kuzuki
my point is, has he developed a strong affinity to those swords at that time? it's more likely he projected them because he was desperate, if you look at his description at that time.

and as we know, affinity DO play a big role in one's creation. just like how other armaments cost shirou two or three times higher than swords.


Einherjar wrote:
Kansho wrote:
Not really, Shirou traced the weapon because of the whole "I need something BIG" and just saw it at Berserker's hand. He traced it without Archer arm, then unwrapped the holy cloth, and traced the sword again. So he didn't downloaded the sword from Archer arm, he saw it and used the superior tracing of Archer arm to reproduce it.

But that's my point aswell, Shiro and Archer can't beat Berserker under normal circumstances.

But Archer is able to use mass-projection, right? He would have done the same thing Gil did, even if NP's rank is reduced to one, there are still many weapons capable. I can see Berserker as superior, but I still have questions.
archer certainly cannot do like gilgamesh. there's a big difference between his using the rain of swords and gil using it : mana cost. the more swords he produces to make the rain of swords, the more mana he uses. whereas gil... no mana would be consumed at all. he just fired the weapons without having to create them.

it's only a matter of time before archer finally depleted his resources before he can make berserker fall.and not to mention, like kansho said, the weapons lose a whole rank.
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » July 31st, 2008, 9:58 pm

Whoa, this thread grown quite a bit overnight. I like some of the answers you made there. Somethings I'd like to say:

Kansho wrote:
He isn't able to do it at Gil level.... and Gil won because the Enkidu.

There isn't really MANY weapons that surpass A level... + Archer projections lose a whole rank.

And... Berserker is far better than Archer stat-wise.

But he does it at Gil's level: When he betrays Caster on UBW he basically skewers Caster in the very same fashion that Gilgamesh does in the Fate route, while still injured from his Lancer duel. No, I must say, he does it more efficiently than Gil, and then makes a prison of swords to keep Tohsaka at bay while he attempts to kill Shirou, even to the point of casting UBW. Then, we have him firing many swords making a path for Tohsaka again to escape from the Giant Blob Grail, all of this while out of mana and with no Master, with Gil's caused wounds still present... he even traces a Rho Aius for Shirou to cast UBW unhindered, doesn't him? I personally think of Archer as a battle hardened and experienced Gilgamesh, that doesn't constantly subestimate his opponents, can hold his own against other servants on CQC, has a better but harder to cast version of GoB but lacks Ea and Enkidu.

If Gil vs Berserker was a win for a standing still, arrogant Gil that instead of retreating on the very last moment summoned Enkidu, then Archer actively looking for a better position for attacking Berserker while not caring about his arrogance or the image he gives for the GAR fanboys then would have a much better chance while mass tracing swords: If Gil was saved by Enkidu, in the very same fashion he could have retreated and used more swords instead of standing there arrogantly and chaining Heracles: thus this path could be followed by Archer as well. Also, we can safely say that while Gil has one example of every original model, Archer has the originals and the derivatives, and every weapon he saw in his time as a Counter Guardian (and, knowing that he's sick tired of being one, there must be A LOT of them).

A last word: while it DOES say that "the duplicated weapons has its rank reduced by one" on UBW description, UBW's rank its still the same as Gate of Babilon: E-A++ I assume the reason for the variable rank is because the weapons inside both NPs varies on the same fashion as well: if it's so, then both Archer and Gil have weapons of the same level, and the "reduced rank by one" is pretty much figurative. We all saw how in the Shirou vs Gilgamesh battle both Gil's originals and Shirou's copies clashed and destroyed each other: that seems pretty much like same level to me. "There's no rule that the copies must be worse than the originals", Shirou said...

This all is spoken while assuming that Archer has no time to cast UBW, and instead uses mass tracing (that's basically making the images already present in his mind exteriorize in the outside world, instead of expanding his mind and replacing the outside world with it). In UBW, I'm sorry to say this but IMHO no 5th Holy Grail War servant would be much of a match, provided that he has enough mana to maintain the thing active... He does control and can levitate and launch at considerable speed all the INFINITE swords inside, right?


inferno_flamex wrote:1)
I kinda have the feeling that Archer healed up just fine halfway through... But its more like because he knows who he and shirou really are.. He kinda 'pretended' to still be in an injured state... Just so that he could 'teach' shirou about his own powers... And... Well.. He could 'lie' about it to Rin simply because...

*Prepared against all the Rin fanboys*

Well.. Rin can kinda be abit oblivious about such things... Basically, things that she seems 'are not to be bothered'...

OH!.. And now that i just thought about it... This could be the scenario...
Since Archer 'lied' about his condition.. He is continously putting himself under pressure because of the command spell. So technically.. He did not recover on purpose, by using the command effect to his advantage.. Or rather Disadvantage... Because he found out about his memories and Shirou and had wanted to make sure that he would NOT be fighting any servernts anytime soon, so that he could teach Shirou!

Good point in the first part. And Tohsaka is oblivious at some things, namely the things that end up being the most important at the last moment, like how she assumed that she could detect every master on the school trough mana leak detection, or how she assumed the Mattou family wasn't participating and so forgot all about them until the fact came crashing down into her head.

Just wanted to say this: Archer pretending to be injured... so he can help Shirou? No, it should have been more like in order to survey what was the best path to follow: remember that he helps Shirou pretty much out of his own amusement or under Rin's orders, even to the point of questioning himself "why I am helping someone I have to kill"? His objective is killing Shirou, at least in both Fate and UBW, and helping him is just how the things turned out, but not what he desired or had planned to do. If anything, he may only subconsciously allowed himself to help Shirou...
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Unread postby supremehyren » July 31st, 2008, 10:55 pm

I assume by this point, anyone reading this thread will have realized that it's full of spoilers. I'm just using them to divide text.




Archer can't do sword rain at Gil's level. Like Raitei said, Gil doesn't need to use mana, and also has superior weapons. 'The older mystery will always be stronger', and he's got the oldest ones. Anyways, it's not like he's a weak servant, either. Why would he need to dodge around and look strategic when he can simply stand there and kill an enemy?

Even without GoB, Ea's more than enough to kill anything. I doubt even Berserker could survive an EX rank if he used full power. And Archer can't copy that.

It's doesn't seem right for a KINGU to fight like the commoners, after all. Hehheh...

Archer would eventually run out of mana if he tried a rain of swords for too long.


As for the copies being as strong as the originals, try shooting a cannonball at a slightly smaller cannonball, and see if they both break. If only a rank weaker, it's likely that both would break on impact. In other words, Shirou saying that was just him being cocky.



Shirou's affinity with swords is due to the fact that he's had Avalon inside of him for a long time. He 'lived with a sword'.
(Well, it's not a sword, but swords go in sheaths, so go figure)




I like the idea that Archer lost to Berserker on purpose. Really, when you think about it, he killed him six times alone. Later, Caliburn worked, so he didn't use it in his fight. Therefore, six times + tracing Caliburn would have been Archer's win, right? Archer must have fought Berserker back when he was in the grail war, and would have known about Caliburn, so....
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Unread postby Einherjar » July 31st, 2008, 10:58 pm

matthewfarenheit wrote:Whoa, this thread grown quite a bit overnight. I like some of the answers you made there. Somethings I'd like to say:

Kansho wrote:
He isn't able to do it at Gil level.... and Gil won because the Enkidu.

There isn't really MANY weapons that surpass A level... + Archer projections lose a whole rank.

And... Berserker is far better than Archer stat-wise.

But he does it at Gil's level: When he betrays Caster on UBW he basically skewers Caster in the very same fashion that Gilgamesh does in the Fate route, while still injured from his Lancer duel. No, I must say, he does it more efficiently than Gil, and then makes a prison of swords to keep Tohsaka at bay while he attempts to kill Shirou, even to the point of casting UBW. Then, we have him firing many swords making a path for Tohsaka again to escape from the Giant Blob Grail, all of this while out of mana and with no Master, with Gil's caused wounds still present... he even traces a Rho Aius for Shirou to cast UBW unhindered, doesn't him? I personally think of Archer as a battle hardened and experienced Gilgamesh, that doesn't constantly subestimate his opponents, can hold his own against other servants on CQC, has a better but harder to cast version of GoB but lacks Ea and Enkidu.

If Gil vs Berserker was a win for a standing still, arrogant Gil that instead of retreating on the very last moment summoned Enkidu, then Archer actively looking for a better position for attacking Berserker while not caring about his arrogance or the image he gives for the GAR fanboys then would have a much better chance while mass tracing swords: If Gil was saved by Enkidu, in the very same fashion he could have retreated and used more swords instead of standing there arrogantly and chaining Heracles: thus this path could be followed by Archer as well. Also, we can safely say that while Gil has one example of every original model, Archer has the originals and the derivatives, and every weapon he saw in his time as a Counter Guardian (and, knowing that he's sick tired of being one, there must be A LOT of them).

A last word: while it DOES say that "the duplicated weapons has its rank reduced by one" on UBW description, UBW's rank its still the same as Gate of Babilon: E-A++ I assume the reason for the variable rank is because the weapons inside both NPs varies on the same fashion as well: if it's so, then both Archer and Gil have weapons of the same level, and the "reduced rank by one" is pretty much figurative. We all saw how in the Shirou vs Gilgamesh battle both Gil's originals and Shirou's copies clashed and destroyed each other: that seems pretty much like same level to me. "There's no rule that the copies must be worse than the originals", Shirou said...

This all is spoken while assuming that Archer has no time to cast UBW, and instead uses mass tracing (that's basically making the images already present in his mind exteriorize in the outside world, instead of expanding his mind and replacing the outside world with it). In UBW, I'm sorry to say this but IMHO no 5th Holy Grail War servant would be much of a match, provided that he has enough mana to maintain the thing active... He does control and can levitate and launch at considerable speed all the INFINITE swords inside, right?


That's some good points. I'm not saying Archer can win, but there are certainly more than 12 A-rank weapons in Archer's arsenal, and many can destroy destroy him more than once. Caliburn is Weaker than Excalibur, yet it can destroy berserker 7 times. Excalibur is A+++ (in F/SN A+++ means rank of A capable of dealing 4x the damage), so does that mean Excalibur won't be strong enough to kill Hercules when traced?
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