Weird Archer questions. [Spoilers] <-- are welcome!

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Weird Archer questions. [Spoilers] <-- are welcome!

Unread postby radical_number6 » July 25th, 2008, 8:55 pm

In FSN, if Archer trace a gun, would it hurt other servants? I think so but I need some1 to confirm it.
In F/Zero, Lancer had a lance where it cuts off your prana. Would it work on Archer's tracing? Im leaning towards yes.
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Unread postby Uberoy » July 25th, 2008, 9:02 pm

Yes, Im pretty sure it would. Well, if he gave it that ability when he projected it that is.
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Unread postby Kansho » July 25th, 2008, 10:08 pm

- Archer can't project a gun. Too complex (mechanical parts, etc...)
- Fate/Zero's Lancer Gae Dearg is more like a "anti-Noble Phantasm" weapon. It can't negate Archer's tracing because that's thaumaturgy, but maybe can cancel an already traced weapon. Not really important tough, as Archer can trace another one.
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Unread postby Uberoy » July 25th, 2008, 10:35 pm

To complex huh? I thought he could project almost everything aslong as he got time... Thanks for the correction 8) .
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Unread postby Nephilm » July 25th, 2008, 11:01 pm

Uberoy wrote:To complex huh? I thought he could project almost everything aslong as he got time... Thanks for the correction 8) .


He can only accurately project swords and bladed weapons, and also shields at extra prana cost and effort. In practice, all Shirou could project were hollow copies of objects, and never managed to create something useful until he first attempts tracing swords during FSN.
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Unread postby Uberoy » July 25th, 2008, 11:05 pm

Nephilm wrote:
Uberoy wrote:To complex huh? I thought he could project almost everything aslong as he got time... Thanks for the correction 8) .


He can only accurately project swords and bladed weapons, and also shields at extra prana cost and effort.


That actually makes sense because he's Sword attribute... Thanks for explaining it to me.
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Unread postby Amerin » August 22nd, 2008, 12:00 am

Archer can make up his own swords too right? Why not design a sword so powerful it can beat everything? >> Everything he makes drops one level right? So just design a sword thats EX, then it can be like AAA xD
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Unread postby Einherjar » August 22nd, 2008, 12:03 am

Amerin wrote:Archer can make up his own swords too right? Why not design a sword so powerful it can beat everything? >> Everything he makes drops one level right? So just design a sword thats EX, then it can be like AAA xD
It would be A, actually. EX++ = A++. And Archer can only modify weapons. He can technically make a new one, but he can't really set it's power (thus meaning that it'll be an ordinary weapon).
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Unread postby Rikh » August 22nd, 2008, 4:33 am

Einherjar wrote:
Amerin wrote:Archer can make up his own swords too right? Why not design a sword so powerful it can beat everything? >> Everything he makes drops one level right? So just design a sword thats EX, then it can be like AAA xD
It would be A, actually. EX++ = A++. And Archer can only modify weapons. He can technically make a new one, but he can't really set it's power (thus meaning that it'll be an ordinary weapon).


Is avalon a weapon? archer can trace that at least. or Shirou can at least....
But he did modify Caladbolg to a new weapon. I am sure he can create a weapon, but it will most likely have a weak concept. In archers tracing, he looks at the history and creation behind an object. In a new object, it will not have a history, nor a special effect (most likely...)

Example - Excalibur is a normal sword until the lady of the lake gives it to arthur. Then it becomes a great weapon.
He cannot just create a weapon from scratch (well he can...) but it is sure not to have good stats compared to legendary ones
(although i wonder how he first created kansho and byakua... who did he fight, or see to gain their blueprints? also he totally modified them to an overedge form through his own tracing)
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Unread postby Raitei » August 22nd, 2008, 5:42 am

Rikh wrote:
Einherjar wrote:
Amerin wrote:Archer can make up his own swords too right? Why not design a sword so powerful it can beat everything? >> Everything he makes drops one level right? So just design a sword thats EX, then it can be like AAA xD
It would be A, actually. EX++ = A++. And Archer can only modify weapons. He can technically make a new one, but he can't really set it's power (thus meaning that it'll be an ordinary weapon).


Is avalon a weapon? archer can trace that at least. or Shirou can at least....
But he did modify Caladbolg to a new weapon. I am sure he can create a weapon, but it will most likely have a weak concept. In archers tracing, he looks at the history and creation behind an object. In a new object, it will not have a history, nor a special effect (most likely...)

Example - Excalibur is a normal sword until the lady of the lake gives it to arthur. Then it becomes a great weapon.
He cannot just create a weapon from scratch (well he can...) but it is sure not to have good stats compared to legendary ones
(although i wonder how he first created kansho and byakua... who did he fight, or see to gain their blueprints? also he totally modified them to an overedge form through his own tracing)
avalon isn't a weapon. or to be more precise, it's not a sword. shirou's affinity is swords. he (fate shirou) can trace it because he's seen it, and is aware of its presence inside his body. archer, on the other hand, I believe not.

and caladbolg II isn't so much a modification / alteration as it's just shape alteration into something more aerodynamic. he can't modify deeper aspects such as concepts... making an entirely new weapon with new concepts in it is impossible.
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Unread postby Riverl » August 22nd, 2008, 1:29 pm

actually I remember Archer mentioned about "her sheath" or something like that in UBW
But the moment Saber's no longer connected to Shirou with a contract, we dont see his insane healing ability granted by Avalon anymore
And his injuries never heal that much faster than a normal human should before he met Saber
Rin guess should be partially right, Saber's connection to Shirou is the reason Avalon could be used by Shirou
So, even if Archer knew about it, probably he cant use it
no point in tracing Avalon then, throw at the enemy and shout "hey, be scared, my HAXX EX NP"?
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Unread postby Einherjar » August 22nd, 2008, 1:44 pm

Riverl wrote:actually I remember Archer mentioned about "her sheath" or something like that in UBW
But the moment Saber's no longer connected to Shirou with a contract, we dont see his insane healing ability granted by Avalon anymore
And his injuries never heal that much faster than a normal human should before he met Saber
Rin guess should be partially right, Saber's connection to Shirou is the reason Avalon could be used by Shirou
So, even if Archer knew about it, probably he cant use it
no point in tracing Avalon then, throw at the enemy and shout "hey, be scared, my HAXX EX NP"?

I wonder why it worked when Kiritsugu used it on Shirou...
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Unread postby that one guy » August 22nd, 2008, 9:01 pm

I was always under the assumption the Avalon activated whenever Shirou uses prana, or in reality, prana is used en masse throughout his body. That's why it worked when Kiritsugu used it on him. Just put in a little prana and it'll start to heal the body. Granted, it's only really powerfull when tons of prana is being used, so the only times it can give that whole "revive when cut in half" type of healing is when he's drawing huge amounts of prana from something. Like a Servant.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 23rd, 2008, 2:42 am

Also, Shirou's ungodly damage resistance has something to do with his reality marble. Remember when Rider tried to stab him in the neck with the nail, it chipped and broke. Apparently Shirou's UBW can make a "sword armor" in his body.
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Unread postby Riverl » August 23rd, 2008, 3:17 am

Uhm, actually, I don't remember anything about he drain Saber's prana when using Avalon. When he healed from Berserker's slash, Saber was quite surprised and thought it was his own ability, she would have known if he drained prana from her
I guess even without Saber, Avalon do have some side effect, may be that's how it saved him
But when HF hasn't started, he mentioned leaving the archery club due to some injury, which would have healed real fast if Avalon was even helping him with its passive state.
He was also surprised seeing his wound heal like that, mean that's not something that happened before, or at least not noticeable fast.
And it also didn't help him a bit when Lancer stabbed him. Even when Rin used up the prana in her family heirloom to almost completely heal him, he's still weak and hurt when he returned home, unlike other cases (he got an open stomach and only a small wound was left when Rin carried him home) . May be it has something to do with Gae Bolg curse, but again, Rin's healing spell should have fixed that if it healed him that much.
He's back to being vulnerable after Saber became Rin's Servant, which made Rin and Shirou in UBW think her theory about Shirou draining Saber to heal himself was right, though it's quite incorrect.
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Unread postby that one guy » August 23rd, 2008, 3:26 am

Wait, what? how would Saber be able to tell if Shirou was draining prana from her? And as for the thing with Lancer, Rin says that she probably shouldn't have been able to heal Shirou, and that he shouldn't have survived as long as he did. Gae Bolg, at least according to my theory, left traces of prana in his body, and so that kept him alive slightly longer than normal. Then, when Rin used her jewel to heal him, it actually worked better because it was in conjunction with Avalon. And regardin his Archery injury, wasn't it that it DID heal real fast, he just never felt like going back?
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Unread postby Riverl » August 23rd, 2008, 4:57 am

It did healed, and he indeed just never feel like coming back
the point is, it's not anything spectacular, special, exceptionally fast or something, slightly faster, but not like in HF
and Servant should be sensitive to prana, they are spirit, ghost liner, soul, however you call them, embodiment of 3rd Magic, their body materialized using prana. As incomplete as her may be, Saber can tell easily if the master isn't supplying her with enough prana, let alone if he's actually draining her. At least, if Avalon is draining her, it will make her weaken faster than one can imagine, or at least strain her, and she cant miss that.

I dont remember Rin saying anything like she shouldn't be able to heal him as in "Even with my family heirloom, I shouldn't be able to heal you"
It will be hard with only me, If it's me alone, I shouldn't be able to heal him, what now? I can with this jewel, but it's all father left me. Okay, I'll use it up sooner later anyway, I dont want to see her cry, If I dont heal him now, he wont survive, just a few secs later and he'll die
It's more along that line
You think Rin will heal Shirou if she thought she cant even with the jewel and wasting her triumph card in the proceed? At that point Rin didn't care about Shirou more than "some one whose death may make Sakura cry" =?

And no, a passive effect NP like a Passive state like Avalon shouldn't drain prana, as long as "draining" isnt part of the effect. Activated effect is what should require prana.
If it's an activate effect that require prana or something (that is, if Avalon has like, 2 effects that need activation), then the prana must be consciously channel into it.
That said.
I don't think Gae Bolg and the "prana traces" has anything to do with it .
If prana traces is all that's needed, then Shirou own prana is more than enough. It's an unactivated Gae Bolg, you think it radiate prana or something?
Prana exist in the environment too, and Fuyuki city is a sacred ground, supposedly having abundant prana in that form. Avalon would be on 24/7 if such tiny prana traces are enough.
If Gae Bolg left something, it would be the curse "you cant heal until Gae Bolg is destroyed".

So, sorry, "your theory" about Gae Bolg in this case is too much one own imagination and don't have any supportive fact to base it on
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Unread postby Raitei » August 23rd, 2008, 6:09 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Also, Shirou's ungodly damage resistance has something to do with his reality marble. Remember when Rider tried to stab him in the neck with the nail, it chipped and broke. Apparently Shirou's UBW can make a "sword armor" in his body.
it's not ubw. ubw is only the manifestation of his soul. rather, it's his own body. "his body is made out of swords". so tracing swords is basically like just transforming a part of his body into a sword.
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Unread postby Drigersfury » August 23rd, 2008, 6:46 am

Well it would be sweet if Archer could spam produce some gatling guns. But I definately think that it would take to much concentration and manipulation. Like already mentioned his affinity is for swords and that is what he produces the most. I don't think it is beyond his ability to produce stuff like Lances, but it would require more prana and since Archer has trained his body to its near limit. I don't think he would be foolish and waste prana, his character's nature just goes against it.

As far as Shirou's unique healing ability. I remember when Archer in UBW was harvesting Shiro to pieces. He said something to the affect that the sheath was helping him. At that time Saber was Rin's servant. So it made me assume that as long as Saber was near Shirou Avalon would work to some degree. Since Shirou hadn't yet summoned Saber when Lancer stabbed him it wasn't working.

I never really understood those tiny little blades that seem to help Shirou, though I did assume it had something to do with his Reality Marble. "I am the bone of my sword" sounded like something those little blades might be involved with. Though to my knowledge Archer never used such an ability.
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Unread postby Riverl » August 23rd, 2008, 7:50 am

it's not ubw. ubw is only the manifestation of his soul. rather, it's his own body. "his body is made out of swords". so tracing swords is basically like just transforming a part of his body into a sword.

UBW is the image of his soul, the reason of his uncanny ability in tracing/projection, Shirou himself said that.
If tracing is what make his body turning into swords, yes, that's the work of UBW
UBW doesn't necessary has to be "THE UBW" that appear, manifest, etc when he use his Reality Marble chant.
The image in his soul will always be there and work, passively.
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