UBW chants (Spoiler)

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UBW chants (Spoiler)

Unread postby ScorchingFalcon » July 3rd, 2008, 6:12 pm

After reading UBW I realised that Shirou has his own UBW chant that are different from Archer's... any significant meaning to this?
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Unread postby Mkilbride » July 3rd, 2008, 6:27 pm

Probably because of their life choices.
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Unread postby Shirosaki » July 3rd, 2008, 7:18 pm

Archers chant is the story (sort of) of the ideal life that Shirou wanted to follow, Shirou's chant is the life that he chose to follow which differed from his ideal path(Archer).
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Unread postby ayadew » July 3rd, 2008, 8:08 pm

The only difference is that it's more awesome.
The instant I tear off your limbs, rip open your chest and pull out your intestines, biting into your neck as you ask for mercy, chewing through your eyes and spreading your brains on the ground like butter-------!
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Unread postby agesboy » July 3rd, 2008, 8:21 pm

Archer's "Yet, those hands will never hold anything" and Shirou's "This is the only path, I have no regrets" really is the main way that Archer and Shirou are different. Shirou knows what he's doing is impossible and will probably lead to sorrow, but he does not look back and scorn what he has done; he embraces it and continues his way. Archer thought his life's goals were naive and futile, so he tries to change the past.

Shirou knows the truth behind the ideal and kept moving forward. Archer experienced the truth behind the ideal and crumbled. That's why they are the same and yet so different.
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Unread postby Raitei » July 3rd, 2008, 11:56 pm

on a different note :
fuyuki wiki wrote:Incantations/Spells

詠唱・呪文 - Eishou/Jumon

The operation needed to run thaumaturgy.

When using a form of thaumaturgy already stabilized/established as a first-rate school, an already determined process has to be gone through. Part of that process are incantations. Procedure-wise, incantations would be the "application" part in a system of application, acceptance, examination, and issuance.

While incantations themselves are just part of the procedure in regards to execution of thaumaturgy having large systems, in the case of execution of personally-styled thaumaturgy, they have high effect as means of self-hypnosis. To turn on and run one's internal circuits effectively, incantations were created.

Incantations are chanted not to the world but to one self. The reason why incantations may vary between magi even though the spell is the same is reflective of the difference in the personality of the caster.

Those incantations that are cast at the world and not one self are "grand incantations" and fall in the category of great rituals. Use by oneself is said to be impossible.

As spells already have predetermined abilities, no matter which magus uses it, the force of the spell won't change. The only thing that differs are the incantations. The incantations of a spell are what activates the thaumaturgy inscribed in one's own body and also illustrates the nature of the magus. This is because as long as the necessary meaning/set keyword are included for that spell, the details of the incantation are up to the magus' personal tastes.

The incantations of those magi that are easily intoxicated with themselves are long. However, by adding more meaning to it, the power of the spell increases. The stronger the self-hypnosis, the better a magus can draw power from himself (probably in terms of maximizing the power of circuits). It's best to find a good balance between meaningful length (words that would enhance the mind), reduction of rhyme, and quickness of pronunciation. For Shirou, Archer's UBW incantations are the ones that are best suited for raising success rate for tracing overall. Changing the words of the incantation doesn't mean much; what really matters is the meaning behind them.


also:
EMIYA wrote:Archer

Unlimited Blade Works

English translation of Japanese


His body is made out of swords.
His blood is of iron and his heart of glass.
He survived through countless battles.
Not even once retreating,
Not even once being understood.
He was always alone, intoxicated with victory on the hill of swords.

And thus, his life has no meaning.
That body, was surely made out of swords.

Japanese (romaji)
Karada wa tsurugi de dekiteiru.
Chishio wa tetsu de, kokoro wa gurasu.
Ikutabi no senjou wo koete fuhai.
Tada no ichido mo haisou wa naku,
Tada no ichido mo rikai sarenai.
Ka no mono wa tsune ni hitori, tsurugi no oka de shouri ni you.

Yue ni, shougai ni imi wa naku.
Sono karada wa, kitto tsurugi de dekiteita.

Emiya Shirou wrote:Emiya Shirou

Unlimited Blade Works

English translation of Japanese


His body is made out of swords.
His blood is of iron and his heart of glass
He has survived through countless battles
Not even once retreating,
Not even once victorious
The bearer lies here alone
Forging iron on the hill of swords.

But my life needs no meaning.
This body was made out of limitless swords.

Japanese
Karada wa tsurugi de dekiteiru
Chishio wa tetsu de, kokoro wa garasu
ikutabi no senjou wo koete fuhai
Tada ichido no haisou mo naku,
Tada ichido no shouri mo nashi
Ninai te wa koko ni hitori.
Tsurugi no oka de tetsu wo utsu
Naraba, waga shougai ni imi wa irazu
Kono karada wa, mugen no tsurugi de dekiteita


it's clear that archer used 3rd person perspective in his last 2 lines, whereas shirou used 1st person perspective. and "needs no meaning" and "has no meaning", i's clear enough that the path archer took led to his destruction, and he still bury some regrets inside himself.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Shikiller » July 4th, 2008, 9:10 pm

Behold the power of different interpretations of the same lines in japanese!


last lines:
Archer
therefore, (that /this) lifetime's is meaningless.
(that/this) body surely is a sword.

Shirou
If that's the case ,my lifetime needs no meaning.
This body is an infinite number of swords.


もし誤りがあったならば訂正しなさい。

Archer lines don't really use a noun, he could be talking about Saber, the lines fits and everything.
Shirous lines do talk about himself.
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Unread postby Raitei » July 4th, 2008, 11:59 pm

Shikiller wrote:Archer lines don't really use a noun, he could be talking about Saber, the lines fits and everything.
Shirous lines do talk about himself.
pah, is saber's body made out of swords? and why would archer use "he" when describing saber?

of course, my first interpretation was saber. but it went away when I noticed "he" and "his body was made out of swords". only shirou could talk like that.

fuyuki wiki wrote:The incantations of those magi that are easily intoxicated with themselves are long. However, by adding more meaning to it, the power of the spell increases. The stronger the self-hypnosis, the better a magus can draw power from himself (probably in terms of maximizing the power of circuits). It's best to find a good balance between meaningful length (words that would enhance the mind), reduction of rhyme, and quickness of pronunciation. For Shirou, Archer's UBW incantations are the ones that are best suited for raising success rate for tracing overall. Changing the words of the incantation doesn't mean much; what really matters is the meaning behind them.

if you put it like this, the meaning behind archer and shirou's line is all the same, just different word choices to describe them.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby WingZero » July 5th, 2008, 12:32 am

@ Raitei:

In Archer's version, the last two lines have no subject.

There is no "HE" in it, but as Shikiller attempted, trying to translate it to English without inserting a subject does not work.

Arai's translation of inserting a "he" in English is not wrong, in fact, it's the most logical conclusion based on who's talking and the previous lines, but be aware that there is no "he" in the original (and thus, it's very general and liberal to interpretation as to who he's talking about in the last two lines.)

Shiro's chant explicitedly says , however.
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Unread postby Raitei » July 5th, 2008, 12:49 am

WingZero wrote:@ Raitei:

In Archer's version, the last two lines have no subject.

There is no "HE" in it, but as Shikiller attempted, trying to translate it to English without inserting a subject does not work.

Arai's translation of inserting a "he" in English is not wrong, in fact, it's the most logical conclusion based on who's talking and the previous lines, but be aware that there is no "he" in the original (and thus, it's very general and liberal to interpretation as to who he's talking about in the last two lines.)
I was referring to the "his body is made out of swords", sorry for being unclear. the previous lines was certainly referring to a male.

His body is made out of swords.
His blood is of iron and his heart of glass.
He survived through countless battles.
Not even once retreating,
Not even once being understood.
He was always alone, intoxicated with victory on the hill of swords.
all was "he". and you cannot expect to change into a "she" so suddenly. note that the line in question won't work without a subject. does japanese have no difference between "he" and "she", as in the pronoun? because indonesian doesn't. I asked this just to make sure.

and if you take this into account :
Changing the words of the incantation doesn't mean much; what really matters is the meaning behind them.
that should mean they both refer to the same person.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Kiirnodel » July 5th, 2008, 4:07 am

Its not that Japanese doesn't have a difference between "he" and "she" pronouns, its actually more of a matter that they are not used. It is considered impolite to refer to someone other than yourself (there are personal pronouns readily used). Usually if you refer to someone it is by name, so in all of these statements there are in fact no direct pronouns referring to anyone, it is all implied.

This most likely means that they are in fact referring to the speaker, because if there is no subject mentioned in previous statements then the speaker is usually implied as the subject of the sentence.

In fact at a casual glance, the only time anything resembling a pronoun is used in either chant is in Shirou's second to last line when it is specifically mentioned that it is his life.

And in his final line it does specifically say this body, which would again imply the speaker.

Basically though, in all the lines before that removing the "His" can make sense, if you look at it like a chant.

    Body made out of swords
    Blood of iron and heart of glass
    Survived through countless battles


Those statements make a decent amount of sense when put into the context they are used in, and I think they sort of imply the same thing the japanese version does, which is it is the speaker's body, blood, and heart, and that the speaker has survived.

If it wants to be brought up, in the Anime (as well as Unlimited Codes, the Arcade game), Archer's chant is in English. Let me know if you want me to look it up to let you know how it was officially translated. It shouldn't be too hard for me to find it, I have the anime.
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Unread postby Raitei » July 5th, 2008, 5:04 am

the anime follows the official chant, that is the one in the beginning of fate. (you know, if you first start the game after the prologue.) I remember it clearly. so basically the chanter (archer/shirou) should've been referring to themselves.

then again,
fuyuki wiki wrote: Changing the words of the incantation doesn't mean much; what really matters is the meaning behind them.
the two chants should have pretty much the same meaning behind them. just a bit of alteration to reflect one self better. after all, why would someone specifically refer to another person as the main part (main part, not the less important details.) of his/her spell? at least, that doesn't make sense in general.
The incantations of those magi that are easily intoxicated with themselves are long.


also, archer's version of english ubw chant (the official one) :
English
I am the bone of my sword.
Steel is my body, and fire is my blood.
I have created over a thousand blades.
Unknown to Death Nor known to Life.
Have withstood pain to create many weapons.
Yet those hands will never hold anything.
So as I pray, unlimited blade works.


on a different note, I haven't seen archer using the japanese version of ubw... all was done in english. :roll:
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby WingZero » July 5th, 2008, 5:08 pm

When Archer / Shiro chants in the UBW route, they use the Japanese version.

mirror moon/TakaJun opted to put the English version in there rather than using a translated version of the original.
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Unread postby Shikiller » July 5th, 2008, 5:47 pm

my body is made out of swords
my blood is of iron and my heart of glass.
i have survived through countless battles.
Not even once retreating,
Not even once being understood.
i was always alone, intoxicated with victory on the hill of swords.

And thus, my life has no meaning.
This body, was surely made out of swords.

Her body is a sword.
Her blood is of iron and his heart of glass.
she survived through countless battles.
Not even once retreating,
Not even once being understood.
she was always alone, intoxicated with victory on the hill of swords.

And thus, her life has no meaning.
That body, was surely a sword.


Both correct translations.
Sorry Ratei , i thought you were smarter and could realize that " my body is a sword" and my "body is made out of swords" are both correct, it won't happen again.
And when you mean you see the chant for the first time in the game, do you mean when we see Saber kneeling in a bloody hill of swords?
I think the chant was made to that ambiguous because it representes both saber's and shirou's life.
another thing that can be interpreted is that swords represent justice and Shirou and Saber both represent justice, so they are both swords.
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Unread postby Raitei » July 5th, 2008, 6:56 pm

then again, you're forgetting the most important piece of information : the official english version. nasu did use "I" on both shirou and archer's version, meaning that "he" refers to the chanter. that is, none other than archer / shirou himself. "changing the words of the incantations doesn't mean much; what's important lies in the meaning behind those words."

mean anything to you? not smart enough to make a conclusion based on that line?

I am the bone of my sword.
Steel is my body, and fire is my blood.
I have created over a thousand blades.
Unknown to Death Nor known to Life.
Have withstood pain to create many weapons.
Yet those hands will never hold anything.
So as I pray, "unlimited blade works."
what? think this one's the work of translators?
WingZero wrote:When Archer / Shiro chants in the UBW route, they use the Japanese version.
what? did you hear him ( archer ) chant at all? or did you play the voiced version, after all? yes, shirou chant was done in japanese, that's why I was surprised to hear it.
yeah, because I expected to hear it in english, just like archer's. remember : shirou only made his incantations once. only once in ubw.

archer's version, on the other hand, was not. both the anime and vn used the english version for archer's ubw. try to hear it yourself before you make another comment next time.

and no, it wasn't saber. I thought it was her at first, but who said that? and the hill... it wasn't even recognizable.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Shikiller » July 5th, 2008, 8:26 pm

the english and japanese chant are equally important, except that the japanese makes A LOT more sense to the dialogues and story, read Saber's memories in the english version, read some of Shirou's dialogues in the japanese version.

some parts that i quick cheked read :
" yes, my body is a sword, so it can endure a lot"
(just before gilgamesh vs shirou fight)

(during archer vs shirou fight)
---Made out of swords
......Even though it's that way, it doesn't seem it matters.
A oath and ideal to protect.
To be able to forfeit everything for it.
I don't care if I am betrayed, as long as I don't betray myself .
Never giving up, never showing my hurt side.

---- blood is of iron and my heart of glass

In other people's eyes, just like a machine without blood and flesh.
Because such a convenient existence, people uses him as they wish.
He 's a tool in other people's eyes.
But even machines have ideals, and he accepts himself as a tool.

--- have survived through countless battles.
Not even once retreating,
Not even once being understood.

This ideal is nothing that should be told to others.
The lives those hands failed to save, the more those hands killed, and the less right to have ideals.
And as a result.
Emiya Shirou ideals never came true.
And finally understood that's just a a joke that troubles others.

----Always alone, intoxicated with victory on the hill of swords.

Look, that's that guy's end.
Look, that will be your end.
--------
Discouraged, hopeless
I won't pity you.
I won't pity you.
I won't pity you.
I won't pity you, but.
When I think of using these feet to walk this path, something feels missing.

----Therefore, that life has no meaning.
What i believe.
What you believed.
The day dream full of lies, even upon seeing that, I still----

Read the english version of those now and tell me if they make the same (or any) sense.
And it seem you don't understand, my thoughs are that the chants are ambiguous on purpose, they talk about both saber and shirou and describe their lifes. Archer talking about about himself in english is correct, but cheking the japanese text reading saber's life in fate route and seeing how there is a pic of saber, alone in a bloody battlefield with swords, tells you that the other interpretation you can get in japanse, is also correct.

and the hell are you trying to say anyway? that Archer ONLY talks about himself in his chant because he does in english? you should know that there is japanese translation of that, that shirou uses japanese, and the meaning of the incantantions is in japanese, if not, prepare to speculate and tell me what the the english incantations mean.
Last edited by Shikiller on July 5th, 2008, 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby WingZero » July 5th, 2008, 8:40 pm

what? did you hear him ( archer ) chant at all? or did you play the voiced version, after all? yes, shirou chant was done in japanese, that's why I was surprised to hear it.
yeah, because I expected to hear it in english, just like archer's. remember : shirou only made his incantations once. only once in ubw.

archer's version, on the other hand, was not. both the anime and vn used the english version for archer's ubw. try to hear it yourself before you make another comment next time.

and no, it wasn't saber. I thought it was her at first, but who said that? and the hill... it wasn't even recognizable.


I'm talking about F/SN. To put it bluntly, I don't give two shits what the voiced version from REALTA NUA says.

I have played through the original Japanese version before mirror moon's translation, and I can tell you that it's done in Japanese.

Try knowing what you're talking about before making another comment next time.

Also, if you were referring to them actually "saying it out", why did you write "I haven't seen archer using the japanese version of ubw" That's misleading.
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Unread postby Raitei » July 5th, 2008, 8:45 pm

WingZero wrote:I'm talking about F/SN. To put it bluntly, I don't give two shits what the voiced version from REALTA NUA says.

I have played through the original Japanese version before mirror moon's translation, and I can tell you that it's done in Japanese.

Try knowing what you're talking about before making another comment next time.

Also, if you were referring to them actually "saying it out", why did you write "I haven't seen archer using the japanese version of ubw" That's misleading.
hm? isn't that obvious? how could he (nasu) write that in japanese while in fact he uses english version for the voice? also, the one he uses in the anime and the prologue opening. I don't moonspeak, so I don't know if he (nasu) could... walk in both paths?
and the hell are you trying to say anyway? that Archer ONLY talks about himself in his chant because he does in english? you should know that there is japanese translation of that, that shirou uses japanese, and the meaning of the incantantions is in japanese, if not, prepare to speculate and tell me what the the english incantations mean.
make any assumptions on it, whatever, I don't care. what I want to convey is, archer only talks about himself in the english chant, and I don't sense anything about saber in that.

EDIT :

NASU KNOWING ENGLISH? HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH OH WOW!!!!!
you should've reminded me about that fact, and we're at peace already :P
however... why would he use english for the voiced part when in fact he uses the japanese version for the texts? it doesn't make sense, unless... nasu is himself.

EDIT 2 : @ Inverted : you've got that one nailed already. kudos for you. :wink:
Last edited by Raitei on July 5th, 2008, 9:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Shikiller » July 5th, 2008, 8:51 pm

Raitei wrote:
WingZero wrote:I'm talking about F/SN. To put it bluntly, I don't give two shits what the voiced version from REALTA NUA says.

I have played through the original Japanese version before mirror moon's translation, and I can tell you that it's done in Japanese.

Try knowing what you're talking about before making another comment next time.

Also, if you were referring to them actually "saying it out", why did you write "I haven't seen archer using the japanese version of ubw" That's misleading.
hm? isn't that obvious? how could he (nasu) write that in japanese while in fact he uses english version for the voice? also, the one he uses in the anime and the prologue opening. I don't moonspeak, so I don't know if he (nasu) could... walk in both paths?


NASU KNOWING ENGLISH? HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH OH WOW!!!!!

edit: you should check the game opening, is in both engrish an japanese, and the anime is not official...
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Unread postby Inverted » July 5th, 2008, 8:54 pm

In Archer Vs Shirou battle , Shirou states that " I could not understand him .But I can use his pain as a lesson .. A Hero who used a poem about his himself as his spell.Even if I don't understand the meaning behind it I'll accept those words in your place."

Yes, it can be applied to Saber .Shirou and Saber are infact very similar. Hence it fits well for Saber.
But Archer's(Emiya Shirou's) chant is only about himself.
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