Regrets in playing Fate/Stay Night [SPOILERS]

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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Unread postby GreenSamurai » August 25th, 2008, 11:06 am

i wonder what NP did Archer traced/reeled during the Berserker fight.....
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Unread postby Raitei » August 25th, 2008, 11:40 am

Riverl wrote:okay, imagine
project a sword ===> broken phantasm it
reel in a sword already made ===> broken phantasm it
which is faster?
Shirou did said that reel in speed >>> projecting speed
beside, if you ever need to distract Berserker with a rain of sword, UBW is the better choice
:roll: :roll:
It's the countermeasure again GOB
It's an annoyance to other

annoyance is still better than nothing, as Saber fought equally with Berserker instead of losing thank to the very-slight annoyance of the tombstone.
That's Servant battle.
talk about prana cost. do you think tracing a broken phantasm does not require additional mana? besides from having the weapon materialized, you ought to overflow it with prana, meaning just ubw won't ever do.

think like this : ubw activated -> prana cost
maintaining ubw -> prana cost
broken phantasm making (not weapon tracing) -> prana cost

whereas

tracing the weapon -> prana cost
broken phantasm making -> prana cost

not to mention activating and maintaining the reality marble costs much higher than just tracing the weapon. annoyance? I don't think so. only weapons which grade are higher than b can hurt berserker. and archer's are degraded by a whole rank. there's not so many weapons with rank a+, you know. so just tracing the weapon without fully activating ubw is much more efficient. that's that.

which is faster? archer (like hf shirou) can trace weapons less than one second. there won't be so much different in speed between summoning the weapon inside ubw and just tracing it directly. shirou only said summoning is faster because he isn't half experienced as archer.

GreenSamurai wrote:i wonder what NP did Archer traced/reeled during the Berserker fight.....
I don't know, but he sure has lots of weapon in his arsenal that can be made broken phantasm. like caladbolg, durendal, gram, hrunting, etc, etc... (everything inside gil's vault, yes)
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Unread postby Riverl » August 25th, 2008, 12:00 pm

talk about prana cost. do you think tracing a broken phantasm does not require additional mana? besides from having the weapon materialized, you ought to overflow it with prana, meaning just ubw won't ever do.

think like this : ubw activated -> prana cost
maintaining ubw -> prana cost
broken phantasm making (not weapon tracing) -> prana cost

whereas

tracing the weapon -> prana cost
broken phantasm making -> prana cost

not to mention activating and maintaining the reality marble costs much higher than just tracing the weapon. annoyance? I don't think so. only weapons which grade are higher than b can hurt berserker. and archer's are degraded by a whole rank. there's not so many weapons with rank a+, you know.


First, prana cost
If he'd die either way, using UBW to increase his chance of survival or at least take out a few more lives vs saving prana, which is a smarter choice? You are saving bullets when you are going to suicide? It's not like he need to use UBW right off the bat anyway, but when he deem necessary. If you feel that you are going to die very soon, would you still save prana? For what? To die with more than a quarter of the prana pool left?
The increase in prana cost also come with the increase of what he could deploy at once. and it's easier to go for the kill when there're something distracting Berserker.
There's the possibility that he didnt even have a chance to use UBW at all (may be this is the reason?), or can't use it somehow, but it's not like using UBW wouldn't help him at all like you said.

And like I said, tombstones were enough of an annoyance to let Saber fight Berserker equally, while she lost outright in Fate
NP and NP rains cant compare to tombstone in providing annoyance/hindrance? Funny

Speed wise
A battle in which a second is importance to survival
Rain of swords outside UBW is "tracing ===> fire", in UBW will become simply "fire"
trace===> attack===> repeat will become attack (reel in sword at the same time) ===> repeat
trace ===> infuse with prana ===> shoot/slash/throw (BP) will be come infuse with prana ===> shoot/slash/throw

Even the swords on the ground can serve to limit Berserker's movement, just like the tombstones.


BTW, BP can raise the power by a whole rank, so only a B+ rank NP would be good, its projection would be C+, BP and its B+ again.

That said, read my post, UBW was not the main point, only one among other things, all to show what he could do even with handicap, and he would have been able to do more if the situation was more favorable, unlike what you said about not having even 1% chance. Why are you trying to drag it out of the context and start a discussion that's leading off whatever we are really discussing
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Unread postby Raitei » August 25th, 2008, 12:32 pm

Riverl wrote:Speed wise
A battle in which a second is importance to survival
Rain of swords outside UBW is "tracing ===> fire", in UBW will become simply "fire"
trace===> attack===> repeat will become attack (reel in sword at the same time) ===> repeat
trace ===> infuse with prana ===> shoot/slash/throw (BP) will be come infuse with prana ===> shoot/slash/throw

Even the swords on the ground can serve to limit Berserker's movement, just like the tombstones.


BTW, BP can raise the power by a whole rank, so only a B+ rank NP would be good, its projection would be C+, BP and its B+ again.
you think about broken phantasm-ing all the weapons he uses to make the rain of swords? lol. just lol. and if he uses the bp one by one, why don't he just trace it? he can trace less than a second. and ubw is a 7 line spell, you know. that's whole lot longer than just tracing the swords, which is definitely consuming less time.
Riverl wrote:
That said, read my post, UBW was not the main point, only one among other things, all to show what he could do even with handicap, and he would have been able to do more if the situation was more favorable, unlike what you said about not having even 1% chance. Why are you trying to drag it out of the context and start a discussion that's leading off whatever we are really discussing
who said he didn't even have 1% chance to win? I intended the question to trigger more discussions, in case you don't understand. about the possibilities of what'll he do against other servants. so stop accusing me like a braindead n00b who knows nothing. nothing.

sorry for the usage of harsh language. I don't mean it. really.
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Unread postby Riverl » August 25th, 2008, 2:08 pm

you think about broken phantasm-ing all the weapons he uses to make the rain of swords? lol. just lol. and if he uses the bp one by one, why don't he just trace it? he can trace less than a second. and ubw is a 7 line spell, you know. that's whole lot longer than just tracing the swords, which is definitely consuming less time.

You dont seem to get what I mean
The whole reason to expand UBW is to use whatever he can pull, sword rains or just leaving the swords there as a hindrance , restricting Berserker movement (only slightly, but even that slight hindrance is important), while using BP to finish him off
Who said anything about BP all the sword in those swords rains?
Use the BP one by one? Caladbolg BP was deflected by Berserker when Archer used it as a single shot (A surprise single shot to boost, even Saber with instinct A didn't notice), Hrunting only penetrated 4 layers of Rho Aias and its a doubt if it's powerful enough to get Berserker since Gae Bolg throwing lance penetrated all 7 layers while barely enough to negate God Hand (B+).
In UBW you dont really need to trace, the swords are already there and you can use them however you see fit, reeling them in also is much faster than tracing them, as Shirou described. Using swords rain along with BP outside of UBW will take a considerable time to set up each time.
Projection cost while UBW is up also seem negligible. If that really is the case, it also help mass sword rain while BP even easier, since each sword projected outside of UBW cost prana, and when doing it en mass x multiple time, the cost rack up to the point UBW upkeep seem small. Even if it's not the case (projection still cost the same), Archer would have a near unlimited number of swords readied the moment he expanded UBW, and can use them without having to preapare/project each swords like stated above.

And I did said that "Archer was unable to use UBW rather than didnt want to use it" was a possibility, thank to the chant.


The point should be if Archer can use it or not, and when to use it to maximize the benefit and minimize the cons, not if it help with anything or not. There's a reason to expanding UBW, if expanding UBW has no positive/tactical effect beside countering GOB like what you seem trying to prove (I'm under this impression, clarify if it's not right), then why anyone bothered to expand it? :shock:







who said he didn't even have 1% chance to win? I intended the question to trigger more discussions, in case you don't understand. about the possibilities of what'll he do against other servants. so stop accusing me like a braindead n00b who knows nothing. nothing.


If you raised that question, then please discuss about it properly before side tracking and nitpicking, I answered your point, but you quoted everything I wrote and only pick out one part, then keep pressing it. I didn't mean UBW was the only handicap, nor was it an "I win" button, it was only one among others.
From what you said, I can tell you are not a noob, at least we both read the game and had some research about it, and I'm not treating you like one. I'm asking why ignore all the points and keep attacking at one point.
Also sometime you seem to give the impression that you think those discussing with you actually know less, and when that's the case, I tend to response the same. Sorry if you didnt mean it :?
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Unread postby Raitei » August 25th, 2008, 4:01 pm

Projection cost while UBW is up also seem negligible. If that really is the case, it also help mass sword rain while BP even easier, since each sword projected outside of UBW cost prana, and when doing it en mass x multiple time, the cost rack up to the point UBW upkeep seem small. Even if it's not the case (projection still cost the same), Archer would have a near unlimited number of swords readied the moment he expanded UBW, and can use them without having to preapare/project each swords like stated above.
if it's THAT small, why would shirou need rin's help to unleash his own? the cost of releasing ubw and maintaining it should not be taken lightly, you know. you seem to think that "buying a lifetime ticket is cheaper than one-use ticket every time you enter a certain theme park". that's not true. besides the prana to activate it, he still has to maintain it.

Riverl wrote:The point should be if Archer can use it or not, and when to use it to maximize the benefit and minimize the cons, not if it help with anything or not. There's a reason to expanding UBW, if expanding UBW has no positive/tactical effect beside countering GOB like what you seem trying to prove (I'm under this impression, clarify if it's not right), then why anyone bothered to expand it? :shock:
you're a bit off. ubw won't do much good as when it's up against that gold pika. too expensive for a good that doesn't even compensate with the price. and has anyone ever bothered with expanding it except when fighting gil and showing off (read : threatening everyone in the room)?

Riverl wrote:If you raised that question, then please discuss about it properly before side tracking and nitpicking, I answered your point, but you quoted everything I wrote and only pick out one part, then keep pressing it. I didn't mean UBW was the only handicap, nor was it an "I win" button, it was only one among others.
From what you said, I can tell you are not a noob, at least we both read the game and had some research about it, and I'm not treating you like one. I'm asking why ignore all the points and keep attacking at one point.
Also sometime you seem to give the impression that you think those discussing with you actually know less, and when that's the case, I tend to response the same. Sorry if you didnt mean it :?
and to put it back, I seem to read this line of yours as "he'll win if only he used ubw".
He showed that he can defeat Berserker 6 times without using UBW (no, he didn't, honestly, Illya never understood why a hero has so many A-rank attack, she would have knew if he used his RM), abandoned by his master (common Rin, at least do what Waver did to Iskander and order him not to loose with you command mantra), in a close space where he obviously is at disadvantage .
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Unread postby Riverl » August 25th, 2008, 6:22 pm

if it's THAT small, why would shirou need rin's help to unleash his own? the cost of releasing ubw and maintaining it should not be taken lightly, you know. you seem to think that "buying a lifetime ticket is cheaper than one-use ticket every time you enter a certain theme park". that's not true. besides the prana to activate it, he still has to maintain it.

Shirou prana was estimated at what? 12 times of projection, which make it around 60 prana
yes, he need Rin's support, else he cant even use it. His prana pool was even sub-par compare to a very AVERAGE Magus at that point.
And why did Shirou need to used it instead of normal projection? Cus using projection outside of UBW to fight off GOB is even more suicidal to him. Only thank to expanding it he got a speed advantage over Kingpika (not a serious Kingpika, but that's the point: it gave an advantage, without it, he'll lost even that small advantage), and without it he would have exhausted himself trying to catch up in projecting what GOB is throwing at him, if I'm not mistaken.
Rin prana was divided into supplying Shirou, Saber and her own, and Shirou expanded it long enough to fight Kingpika
A rain of swords with about 10-15 swords or more, which would amount to 50-75 per rain, a wave doesnt last even as long as a second, if used continuously for extended period of time can really catch up and excess UBW upkeep/activation (provide that UBW really negate the projection cost), which is around 200-300 for activation ( around 3-4 waves), and later upkeep seem cheaper than the activation, at least cheap enough (with the time Shirou was able to use it again Kingpika). Saying "make it seem small" may be a bit overboard, but its a possibility for this situation to happen (as in, exceeding the cost of UBW).
And its not the only advantage from the sacrificed upkeep prana



you're a bit off. ubw won't do much good as when it's up against that gold pika. too expensive for a good that doesn't even compensate with the price. and has anyone ever bothered with expanding it except when fighting gil and showing off (read : threatening everyone in the room)?

Actually UBW activation cost is cheap compared with other Noble Phantasms, not that expensive...



and to put it back, I seem to read this line of yours as "he'll win if only he used ubw".


Let me quote my own words instead
He showed that he can defeat Berserker 6 times without using UBW (no, he didn't, honestly, Illya never understood why a hero has so many A-rank attack, she would have knew if he used his RM), abandoned by his master (common Rin, at least do what Waver did to Iskander and order him not to loose with you command mantra), in a close space where he obviously is at disadvantage .

Grammar wise I believed if I wrote "he was handicapped by a-comma-b-comma c" then, shouldnt you take both a, b and c as equal, I seperated them by commas, not dots.
If you still can see it, let me remove the bracket
He showed that he can defeat Berserker 6 times without using UBW, abandoned by his master, in a close space where he obviously is at disadvantage.

Please translate how this sentence can be translated into "he would have beat Berserker with UBW"?
I said the he did that 6 time with the handicaps: a,b,c, which should mean:
1. he could have done more/better in that situation if the handicap was lifted
2. He's not that hopelessly outmatch and can win in more favor situation

I never said something like "should have win if he used UBW"
I even said that may be he wasn't even allowed to use UBW, as in, Berserker's attack didn't allow him the luxury. Which, in itself, mean that UBW was possibly useless to begin with.

I said that UBW in this case serve more as a distraction/hindrance to allow getting the kills, if only by a slight difference, easier and speed up his attack rate, the main killing force is still BP (it's the only thing we knew Archer has and capable of getting through God Hand, at least, but from the text in Fate, it seem that BP wasn't the majority of what he used on Berserker, since each kill was a completely different moves), which can be used without UBW anyway . On a side note, it may also allow more tactics to be deployed without the need for longer preparing time.
And taking in account the close space problem
Where you want to face an insane Heracles with supersonic swing, a close space rooms or a barrel wasteland with space to avoid while also provide hindrance again him?

All of those conclusion was based on what I knew about UBW, and it's easy to tell that at least I'm at least aware of what UBW basically is, and tried to look at it objectively, not a bias "UBW is a super powerful move that can pwn all Servants easily" fanboy. I also disagree with anyone saying Archer can beat Lancer/Saber in close combat, for that matter.

To be frank, I'm disappointed that, from my POV, it seem like you are discussing with the impression that I'm some newbie who think everyone else is brain dead while actually know nothing. I respect your points (or at least tried to, since you seem knowledgeable yourself) while prove my opinion with what I knew, but keep encountering this vibe make me feel like losing patience from time to time. My bad. >.<
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » August 25th, 2008, 11:20 pm

Ohh god this is awesome...
http://visualnoveldai.com/
If you want to create your own visual novel go there!
Try it out, no compromise!
8 inches in a week!

btw Princess Tutu is still Awesome!!!
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Unread postby Rikh » August 26th, 2008, 12:10 am

Basically down to your favorite servant here...

But seriously, in my book...
Archer>Shirou>Gil
Carelessness, surprises, prana enhancements, and situational differences all make up a servants battle...
Just saying "Gil being serious in a one Vs One open area fight = Death to infinite challengers" doesn't really cut it...
The fact is that Shirou destroyed Gil because he was smarter. Archer can also destroy Gilgamesh if he plays it smart. The fact is, Gil never got serious in this HF, so that is his own fault. Pride plays a part into a servants skill too.... If they are too overconfident to neglect a few possible surprises, then their skill level can immediately drop in different situations

Although 1/20th prana Archer without a master is < Shirou apparently (although this is also due to his pride to not take the appropriate attacks in their fight...

Also Archer on the GAR scale is definitely... Archer > Everyone X 2
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Unread postby Raitei » August 26th, 2008, 12:21 am

Riverl wrote:Shirou prana was estimated at what? 12 times of projection, which make it around 60 prana
yes, he need Rin's support, else he cant even use it. His prana pool was even sub-par compare to a very AVERAGE Magus at that point.
And why did Shirou need to used it instead of normal projection? Cus using projection outside of UBW to fight off GOB is even more suicidal to him. Only thank to expanding it he got a speed advantage over Kingpika (not a serious Kingpika, but that's the point: it gave an advantage, without it, he'll lost even that small advantage), and without it he would have exhausted himself trying to catch up in projecting what GOB is throwing at him, if I'm not mistaken.
Rin prana was divided into supplying Shirou, Saber and her own, and Shirou expanded it long enough to fight Kingpika
A rain of swords with about 10-15 swords or more, which would amount to 50-75 per rain, a wave doesnt last even as long as a second, if used continuously for extended period of time can really catch up and excess UBW upkeep/activation (provide that UBW really negate the projection cost), which is around 200-300 for activation ( around 3-4 waves), and later upkeep seem cheaper than the activation, at least cheap enough (with the time Shirou was able to use it again Kingpika). Saying "make it seem small" may be a bit overboard, but its a possibility for this situation to happen (as in, exceeding the cost of UBW).
And its not the only advantage from the sacrificed upkeep prana
and why is that? because shirou isn't half experienced as archer. archer can trace things much faster than him (true. even when tracing kansho and bakuya took him several seconds, whereas archer... he can keep up with lancer in the first battle no matter how many times he was disarmed. 23 times if I'm not mistaken.). and not to mention prana cost for tracing should be at least more efficient for archer, who was more experienced than shirou. that's also why ubw will show its fullest use against that king of carelessness.

Actually UBW activation cost is cheap compared with other Noble Phantasms, not that expensive...
in this case, cost also includes activation time. and compared with other noble phantasms what? you're referring to excalibur. I doubt even aionian hetairoi even cost more than ubw, while being a lot stronger.


Please translate how this sentence can be translated into "he would have beat Berserker with UBW"?
I said the he did that 6 time with the handicaps: a,b,c, which should mean:
1. he could have done more/better in that situation if the handicap was lifted
2. He's not that hopelessly outmatch and can win in more favor situation
"he can defeat berserker 6 times (even) without using ubw" sounds like that, no matter how many times you look like it. (I inserted the "even" here, cause people seem to just cut the redundant words off like that. no offense, but your line there created a sense of ambiguity. really.)

I said that UBW in this case serve more as a distraction/hindrance to allow getting the kills, if only by a slight difference, easier and speed up his attack rate, the main killing force is still BP (it's the only thing we knew Archer has and capable of getting through God Hand, at least, but from the text in Fate, it seem that BP wasn't the majority of what he used on Berserker, since each kill was a completely different moves), which can be used without UBW anyway . On a side note, it may also allow more tactics to be deployed without the need for longer preparing time.
And taking in account the close space problem
Where you want to face an insane Heracles with supersonic swing, a close space rooms or a barrel wasteland with space to avoid while also provide hindrance again him?
not to compare, but the "refer-to-himself-oresama" seem to have no problems with it...
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Riverl » August 26th, 2008, 8:39 am

and why is that? because shirou isn't half experienced as archer. archer can trace things much faster than him (true. even when tracing kansho and bakuya took him several seconds, whereas archer... he can keep up with lancer in the first battle no matter how many times he was disarmed. 23 times if I'm not mistaken.). and not to mention prana cost for tracing should be at least more efficient for archer, who was more experienced than shirou. that's also why ubw will show its fullest use against that king of carelessness.

yes, but that doesnt mean projecting suddenly become lag-free and cost free. And honestly, I'm under the impression that the "more efficient of projecting" is not really about cutting prana cost, but cast time and the quality. Especially quality, which was mentioned a lot when Shirou compare himself to Archer.
And even with near instant projecting, we are talking about projecting a massive amount of swords at once each time, not one by one (tracing 23 pairs of swords one by one is not like tracing 23 pairs of swords at once)
n this case, cost also includes activation time. and compared with other noble phantasms what? you're referring to excalibur. I doubt even aionian hetairoi even cost more than ubw, while being a lot stronger.

Since I remember someone make a reasonable estimate prana cost about Gae Bolg, the "extremely efficient in term of prana cost" can only be use 7 times without recharge, which make it around 120 prana per use or so
compare to around 200 prana per activation of UBW, not a very large different

Alas, again, reduced projection cost, a near unlimited already projected swords, easier to employ new tactics, easier/faster to use sword rain and BP, a space to act, hindrance again that insanely huge Berserker, all of them are what the cost of activating and keeping UBW expanded. You seem to like picking one point at a time and discuss it. If you look at each point, then yes, the cost isn't reasonable, but it's all of those advantage vs the cost, not each of them vs the cost.



"he can defeat berserker 6 times (even) without using ubw" sounds like that, no matter how many times you look like it. (I inserted the "even" here, cause people seem to just cut the redundant words off like that. no offense, but your line there created a sense of ambiguity. really.)


I think it's more like your impression that I'm a bias Archer fan, and so you translated my words that way, the "even" you inserted just make it seem more so.
As I said, grammar wise, I believed that I made all those points equal.
And no, I'm not the type who like to cut a word that may affect the whole sentence meaning, which, I hope at least now you noticed from my speaking/writing pattern, I typed down everything clearly, without over using of internet slangs or cutting words. If I'm joking or acting as a fan instead of discussing formally, you'll see the clear different.
And I clarified the misunderstood about what? 3 times or more already, why couldn't you at least accept it the first time and discuss according to that and had to make it this far? So to you what I said about my own words isn't as credible as your way of reading them?

not to compare, but the "refer-to-himself-oresama" seem to have no problems with it...

And now we compare King pika with Archer? After both agree that Gil is actually stronger than Archer?
Let review the incident:
Kingpika was aiming at Illya mercilessly, which forced Berserker to get in between and tank everything, and when he got closed enough, Gil pulled out the Enkidu. Of course he didn't have any problems/having a hard time hitting with GOB. And he doesn't even need to BP, since his NP are the original, and none suffered the downgrade.
I think if the scene in UBW pointed out anything, it's that Ilya's stupid habit of always stay by Berserker's side is a serious weakness

If you want to compare, an example I mentioned: The superb close combat fighter that was Saber had a problem/was losing/lost in Fate until she got only one of those advantage (She didn't suffer the negative of being a long range fighter and closed space to boost)

Now, yes, if Archer was aiming at Illya, it's possible that thing would be the same, even if he doesn't have Enkidu and has to BP, or at least it would have been much easier. Everyone said that before the anime, and when the anime is out they even inserted a scene where he could have hit her and didn't (yes, the anime isn't very canon, but it serve to show my opinion). It's the same situation he got wounded by Saber: seeing her, he hesitated and was defeated in a single swing, although he could hold a defensive fight again Lancer earlier. That's why I keep pressing the point that he's still too stubborn and Shirou-like more than he think.
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Unread postby Raitei » August 26th, 2008, 10:05 am

Riverl wrote:yes, but that doesnt mean projecting suddenly become lag-free and cost free. And honestly, I'm under the impression that the "more efficient of projecting" is not really about cutting prana cost, but cast time and the quality. Especially quality, which was mentioned a lot when Shirou compare himself to Archer.
And even with near instant projecting, we are talking about projecting a massive amount of swords at once each time, not one by one (tracing 23 pairs of swords one by one is not like tracing 23 pairs of swords at once)
in case of kansho and bakuya, archer doesn't trace it one by one, you know... he usually already traces at least 3 pairs before he projects it. I don't know why he can't do the same with other swords...
fuyuki wiki wrote:This is more or less a representation of a technique/strategy that Archer uses with Kanshou and Bakuya; consecutive tracing. Tracing 3 sets of Kanshou and Bakuya ahead of time and then projecting them when necessary.



I think it's more like your impression that I'm a bias Archer fan, and so you translated my words that way, the "even" you inserted just make it seem more so.
As I said, grammar wise, I believed that I made all those points equal.
And no, I'm not the type who like to cut a word that may affect the whole sentence meaning, which, I hope at least now you noticed from my speaking/writing pattern, I typed down everything clearly, without over using of internet slangs or cutting words. If I'm joking or acting as a fan instead of discussing formally, you'll see the clear different.
And I clarified the misunderstood about what? 3 times or more already, why couldn't you at least accept it the first time and discuss according to that and had to make it this far? So to you what I said about my own words isn't as credible as your way of reading them?
it is. believe me, impression and ambiguity can affect a whole explanation much more than you can imagine.

And now we compare King pika with Archer? After both agree that Gil is actually stronger than Archer?
I am certain that I said "not to compare"... *rolls fingers, stares at the ceiling*

Kingpika was aiming at Illya mercilessly, which forced Berserker to get in between and tank everything, and when he got closed enough, Gil pulled out the Enkidu. Of course he didn't have any problems/having a hard time hitting with GOB. And he doesn't even need to BP, since his NP are the original, and none suffered the downgrade.
you make it sound like the goldy had planned to do that form the start. no, he didn't. he was toying with berserker, and ilya was just standing in the corner, frightened. I didn't notice anything about gil aiming at ilya. and mind you, when gil used ubw, it's more likely because he was startled by the fact that berserker managed to get that close to him, so in order to stop him from advancing further, there he goes. chink. ka-boom!

note : berserker didn't dodge. why? because he can't. with a big body like that, he's an easy target for gob.

Gilgamesh wrote:I'm disappointed. I thought, as a fellow Demigod, you would at least offer more of a challenge than this.
meaning? his battle target was berserker from the beginning.
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Zensunni » August 26th, 2008, 1:30 pm

I think Archer is a half-assed servant and Rin was very unlucky to summon him just because of a pendant time paradox.

He gets owned by Saber instantly, and then is happy to be given a suicide mission and gladly disappears after having some fun with Berserker, leaving his master to die. He doesn't even want the holy grail. In UBW he lets an enemy live, tries to kill an ally, betrays his master, and with insane luck manages to redeem himself and not create disaster.

It all goes to show he's not serious at all about anything. He keeps a cool outlook but his true attitude seems like "Life sucks, everyone can go fuck themselves and die". And that's why he lost against Berserker, I think. :P
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Unread postby Riverl » August 26th, 2008, 2:31 pm

n case of kansho and bakuya, archer doesn't trace it one by one, you know... he usually already traces at least 3 pairs before he projects it. I don't know why he can't do the same with other swords...

3 pairs are still a whole lot different from several waves of sword rains, the difference in quantity mean a lot. If you think you can eat 3 bowls of rice so you can eat 30 bowls of rice, go ahead.
it is. believe me, impression and ambiguity can affect a whole explanation much more than you can imagine.

If that's your impression, then it's you problem.
I clarified the misunderstanding, and now, either you believe in what I said about my words and we continue discussing (which is what should make sense, since I cant misunderstand my own words), or you can follow whatever you think I meant to said and I'll treat you as nonexistent.
I'm tired with the absurdity of hearing/reading someone tell me "hey, you, I dont think your words mean this, I think it miss a word here, and I think this is what you meant" and having to repeat what I REALLY meant so many times.


you make it sound like the goldy had planned to do that form the start. no, he didn't. he was toying with berserker, and ilya was just standing in the corner, frightened. I didn't notice anything about gil aiming at ilya. and mind you, when gil used ubw, it's more likely because he was startled by the fact that berserker managed to get that close to him, so in order to stop him from advancing further, there he goes. chink. ka-boom!

I cried upon the death of Berserker, and read that part three times (one of them due to dead end).
No, it didn't say anything about Gil aiming, yeah
It said that Berserker couldn't avoid GOB due to the fact that if he avoid, Illya will be the one taking all those attacks
And she was so scared she couldn't move. And he had no choice but to take all the waves while forcing his way ahead.
May be she should have moved, but still, if Gil changed his attack direction, then it'll happen again from the beginning, Berserker has to get in the way again.
He was toying with them? yes, in a sadistic manner unfit for a king and someone with so much power
That is not aiming at her? Your belief, not mine
And no, he wasn't even startled, the bastard waited till he come close and burst out Enkidu, to show that he always had the upper hand.

And the problem is, what you said is pointless, if they are different so much (power and style/personality), and we are not comparing them, then your words in this matter are meaningless, if not distracting.


I am certain that I said "not to compare"... *rolls fingers, stares at the ceiling*

not to compare, but the "refer-to-himself-oresama" seem to have no problems with it...

If this is not a comparison, then what's your point in the whole thing? proving King Pika is the more powerful one?



Honestly, if you can't stop the "I'm better" attitude, then there's no more good in talking, I don't join this forum to buy more stress.
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Unread postby Raitei » August 26th, 2008, 11:36 pm

If that's your impression, then it's you problem.
I clarified the misunderstanding, and now, either you believe in what I said about my words and we continue discussing (which is what should make sense, since I cant misunderstand my own words), or you can follow whatever you think I meant to said and I'll treat you as nonexistent.
I'm tired with the absurdity of hearing/reading someone tell me "hey, you, I dont think your words mean this, I think it miss a word here, and I think this is what you meant" and having to repeat what I REALLY meant so many times.
you make it sound like the bad guy. it's natural for someone to misunderstand, and I told you that your words are misleading. what's so wrong with that? at least try to be a man and accept opinion of others sometimes. even better if you're willing to introspect. honestly, it's your "I'm perfect" and "I don't make mistakes - all your fault" attitude that gives me all the whole mess.

I cried upon the death of Berserker, and read that part three times (one of them due to dead end).
No, it didn't say anything about Gil aiming, yeah
It said that Berserker couldn't avoid GOB due to the fact that if he avoid, Illya will be the one taking all those attacks
And she was so scared she couldn't move. And he had no choice but to take all the waves while forcing his way ahead.
May be she should have moved, but still, if Gil changed his attack direction, then it'll happen again from the beginning, Berserker has to get in the way again.
He was toying with them? yes, in a sadistic manner unfit for a king and someone with so much power
That is not aiming at her? Your belief, not mine
And no, he wasn't even startled, the bastard waited till he come close and burst out Enkidu, to show that he always had the upper hand.
no he was definitely startled. not my opinion. you refer to a baseless assumption, I refer to the game.
Gilgamesh wrote:What? You managed to get this close? *clicks fingers*
Ten no Kusari-yo!


If this is not a comparison, then what's your point in the whole thing? proving King Pika is the more powerful one?
could you just leave someone who was talking about irrelevant things? especially if he said "not to discuss"or something? not everyone thinks about the same way as you, you know.

Honestly, if you can't stop the "I'm better" attitude, then there's no more good in talking, I don't join this forum to buy more stress.
and you should stop your "I'm perfect" thingie and at least try to be a gentleman and accept (read = understand) opinion of others, instead of countering everything what s/he said just to defend your argument.
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » August 26th, 2008, 11:46 pm

Hey guys...
I think you should breath deeply and calm down.
It is very interesting to see you two discuss about matters we all are interested in but it isn't worth it if you too get so angry.
Let it be...ok?

so what? friends now?
http://visualnoveldai.com/
If you want to create your own visual novel go there!
Try it out, no compromise!
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btw Princess Tutu is still Awesome!!!
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Unread postby Rikh » August 27th, 2008, 12:02 am

Huh... Well this is honestly getting too technical
Any servant can beat any other based on circumstances... Heck, even avenger can beat Gil + Saber + berserker if he has a good enough situation.
Dont try to knock others opinions, nobody is really right or wrong int his ordeal. You guys are plainly debating facts like its life or death based on a game translation.
(good translation i must say...)
Plus this isnt a topic at all for people to even remotely get angry about, its just your opinion on what you like to believe in.
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Unread postby Riverl » August 27th, 2008, 11:39 am

you make it sound like the bad guy. it's natural for someone to misunderstand, and I told you that your words are misleading. what's so wrong with that? at least try to be a man and accept opinion of others sometimes. even better if you're willing to introspect. honestly, it's your "I'm perfect" and "I don't make mistakes - all your fault" attitude that gives me all the whole mess.

It's natural to misunderstand.
I understood that you misunderstood what I mean
So I tried to remind you.
Did you noticed I tried to clarify my point until like... the 3th time?
And after that instead of changing what we are discussing, you said what I said was misleading while keep pushing the UBW part, and even insert word into what I said so you can demonstrate that my words were misleading.

I never say I dont make mistake, with all the informations of Nasuverse, its quite easy to make mistake, but I cant mistake what I mean with my words, and since I clarified, which should you consider the real meaning? your version or mine?

And well, I'd be both side fault, since, like I said, your way of speech struck me as having a "you know less than me" vibe, which made me lose patient and response kind of rude from time to time


no he was definitely startled. not my opinion. you refer to a baseless assumption, I refer to the game.

He was more angry, the kind of "why you, dog shit, why you haven't stop and die yet"
and I was typing this with the game running, at the exact scene

What? You managed to get this close? *clicks fingers*
Ten no Kusari-yo!

Actually
"Damn_a mere target survived my attacks?"
The magical bullets are fired mercilessly
"_________"
repelling it with his axe-sword, the giant corners the man with his body slashed and his limp pierced
He cannot reach the man
But he still challenges the man because there is something he cant give up
Then what is he moving forward for?

Servants fight for their Master, to protect the Master's life
That is why that Giant does not retreat
he can only move forward as a shield to protect the frighten Master behind him.

The giant continue his foolish advancement
It is because he know he need to take all the attacks in order to beat that Servant without having his Master killed


And when he reaches his enemy, that is when he wins
From the beginning, that has been this battle's nature
The man has to kill the Giant before he reach him.
The Giant has to approach the man before his life ends
It's a battle where the one to accomplish their goal is the one to win.

The Giant is aware of that
Even if
Its a battle with no hope of victory from the start
"_____"
He roars
coming out of his 10th death, his body explodes forward
He charges into the man like a bull challenging a matador

"You low life!"


Numerous arrows are released
Was it his last charge, or did he just get used to the attacks?
The giant repels all the arrows
He approach the owner of the NPs
He swing his axe sword
The weapon that has not yet been raised against the man rip through the air

"Heaven Chain!"




Except being pissed off, I cant read anything here as Gil was startled

could you just leave someone who was talking about irrelevant things? especially if he said "not to discuss"or something? not everyone thinks about the same way as you, you know.

Do you point at what another person wrote and make a comparison like statement and say its completely irrelevant, its not a comparison, don't discuss with me?
That's rude, you know.
If its just something you said without quoting what I typed I wouldn't even care to reply after you said it's not a comparison.





and you should stop your "I'm perfect" thingie and at least try to be a gentleman and accept (read = understand) opinion of others, instead of countering everything what s/he said just to defend your argument.


I read, what I agreed, I didn't counter, I even reaffirmed that Lancer could have beat Archer and so on
All started with my replay toward your "did he even got that 1% chance"
Then you read my words wrong and push the UBW part
I explained my opinion why UBW would give some advantages and tried to retcon what I was saying, you didn't even bother responding to the second part while pressing your UBW assault, until it was repeated.

About countering what you said.
No, I can accept what other say if they have back up proof, or what they said is common knowledge/ confirmed information, I can admit sometime I remember things wrong, or just wrong myself if you can prove I was. Problem is, I can defend my points, so what is wrong with that? Could you proved the points I made as clearly wrong? I remember not. We are just tossing back and fort our opinions, trying to prove them with what we knew.

I admit sometime my post isn't exactly friendly, but yes, I was losing patient due to what I feel as being disrespected (I just kicked out 2 of those I considered "best friends" due to their "I'm higher than you" attitude, so may be I'm kinda oversensitive).


Anyway, now that what I really wanted to say is clear, I guess for the sake of both side's health, let just drop this discussion turned argument. If you have something against the whole idea and not just UBW, feel free to counter.
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Unread postby Raitei » August 27th, 2008, 12:33 pm

Riverl wrote:It's natural to misunderstand.
I understood that you misunderstood what I mean
So I tried to remind you.
Did you noticed I tried to clarify my point until like... the 3th time?
And after that instead of changing what we are discussing, you said what I said was misleading while keep pushing the UBW part, and even insert word into what I said so you can demonstrate that my words were misleading.

I never say I dont make mistake, with all the informations of Nasuverse, its quite easy to make mistake, but I cant mistake what I mean with my words, and since I clarified, which should you consider the real meaning? your version or mine?

And well, I'd be both side fault, since, like I said, your way of speech struck me as having a "you know less than me" vibe, which made me lose patient and response kind of rude from time to time
what? who kept countering since before the misunderstanding has been cleared? honestly, your - kinda random response towards everything what I said gives me the headache I shouldn't have.


He was more angry, the kind of "why you, dog shit, why you haven't stop and die yet"
and I was typing this with the game running, at the exact scene

"Damn_a mere target survived my attacks?"
The magical bullets are fired mercilessly
"_________"
repelling it with his axe-sword, the giant corners the man with his body slashed and his limp pierced
He cannot reach the man
But he still challenges the man because there is something he cant give up
Then what is he moving forward for?

Servants fight for their Master, to protect the Master's life
That is why that Giant does not retreat
he can only move forward as a shield to protect the frighten Master behind him.

The giant continue his foolish advancement
It is because he know he need to take all the attacks in order to beat that Servant without having his Master killed


And when he reaches his enemy, that is when he wins
From the beginning, that has been this battle's nature
The man has to kill the Giant before he reach him.
The Giant has to approach the man before his life ends
It's a battle where the one to accomplish their goal is the one to win.

The Giant is aware of that
Even if
Its a battle with no hope of victory from the start
"_____"
He roars
coming out of his 10th death, his body explodes forward
He charges into the man like a bull challenging a matador

"You low life!"


Numerous arrows are released
Was it his last charge, or did he just get used to the attacks?
The giant repels all the arrows
He approach the owner of the NPs
He swing his axe sword
The weapon that has not yet been raised against the man rip through the air

"Heaven Chain!"




Except being pissed off, I cant read anything here as Gil was startled
look at the bold part. he was definitely startled. startled, you know. not some dramatic shocked. startled, because he had expected berserker to fall by then. and he didn't plan to use enkidu or target ilya from the beginning. it's you who made it like the refer-to-himself-waresama had planned a detail (let him get close, use the master as a bait, then get his ass by enkidu!) just to show off his power. it's ilya's own fault of being there. gil didn't even bother with her as he was facing berserker.


About countering what you said.
No, I can accept what other say if they have back up proof, or what they said is common knowledge/ confirmed information, I can admit sometime I remember things wrong, or just wrong myself if you can prove I was. Problem is, I can defend my points, so what is wrong with that? Could you proved the points I made as clearly wrong? I remember not. We are just tossing back and fort our opinions, trying to prove them with what we knew.

I admit sometime my post isn't exactly friendly, but yes, I was losing patient due to what I feel as being disrespected (I just kicked out 2 of those I considered "best friends" due to their "I'm higher than you" attitude, so may be I'm kinda oversensitive).


Anyway, now that what I really wanted to say is clear, I guess for the sake of both side's health, let just drop this discussion turned argument. If you have something against the whole idea and not just UBW, feel free to counter.
don't drag personal life into other businesses. you said it like I seem to remind you about those - friends - of yours? your own problem. I don't even care about it. by saying this - I just want to let you know that you should keep some things separated from the others.
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby DarkEyes » August 27th, 2008, 12:41 pm

The allure of spoilers is my only regret xD
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