Should I watch anime?

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Unread postby Retsej » June 25th, 2008, 5:05 pm

It was the anime that got me interested in the series in the first place. It's quite well done.
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Unread postby YanDaMan » July 1st, 2008, 1:39 pm

The anime wasnt that bad, its still one of my favorites.

Then again I watched the anime first, which is what got me interested in this game.
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Unread postby Einherjar » July 1st, 2008, 11:48 pm

Same with all others, I watched the anime first. It was pretty good (compared to a certain anime and F/SN manga), but don't expect anything from it, or you will be dissapointed.
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Unread postby Cat Megex » July 2nd, 2008, 12:29 am

I actually watched the anime after I played the Fate and UBW routes ('twas one of the things I used to act as a holdover while I await the Heaven's Feel patch), and found it to be pretty good.

Note: I also watched Shingetsutan Tsukihime after playing the Tsukihime game (which I played before F/sn), and didn't think it was too bad, albeit not being long enough (there wasn't enough character development, in my opinion). It would probably have been better if they had included enough content to make it about as long as the F/sn anime (i.e. 24-or-so episodes); in fact, after reading through the majority of the Tsukihime manga, I have come to the conclusion that an anime based on that would be very nice. (Well..."nice" in the sense that it would probably be about as good as the F/sn anime.)
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Unread postby Miraploy » July 2nd, 2008, 2:36 am

Yes, I also think that the Tsukihime anime is better than the FSN anime. That opinion is a bit unorthodox, but I'm surprised that nobody has made such a comment before.

*Ehrm, just realized that that sentence was a bit messed up. I meant yes to the order of watching things, and disagreement on which anime was better.
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Unread postby Einherjar » July 2nd, 2008, 2:44 am

Miraploy wrote:Yes, I also think that the Lunar Legend Tsukihime anime is better than the FSN anime. That opinion is a bit unorthodox, but I'm surprised that nobody has made such a comment before.

*Ehrm, just realized that that sentence was a bit messed up. I meant yes to the order of watching things, and disagreement on which anime was better.


So which anime do you think is better? >_>
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Unread postby Cat Megex » July 2nd, 2008, 3:03 am

Wait...who aside from Miraploy thinks the Tsukihime anime is better than the F/sn anime?
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Unread postby Einherjar » July 2nd, 2008, 3:13 am

Cat Megex wrote:Wait...who aside from Miraploy thinks the Tsukihime anime is better than the F/sn anime?

I'm going to assume that Miraploy's second sentence is trying to say that He actually thinks FSN is better than "Tsukihime anime".
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Unread postby Miraploy » July 2nd, 2008, 4:06 am

Sorry, I can't believe I butchered that post so badly.

I like the Tsukihime anime more than I like the FSN anime.

Tsukihime and FSN share some very similar flaws. They leave out large parts of the storyline, and aside from the primary storyline, the little bits they include of the secondary storylines do not do the VNs justice.

However, I actually really enjoyed the Tsukihime anime. I felt that the mood was much more coherant and focused, and some new events, such as the carnival, were well done. The carnival showed some interaction between the characters that we don't see in the novel and served as excellent character development. That scene really brought out the humanity in all the characters, in fact, I don't think 'identity', and 'self', wise, the VN goes any further than where the anime went. Sacchin's presence during the carnival was a really nice touch, especially since it means there's no woman in refrigerator syndrome. And that for me is auto-win.

The sections on Arc was terrifically done and done well. The entire mini-storyline was made so wel that I dont' think anyone can find fault with it.

One of the complaints I hear often about the anime was how depressed Shiki seemed. As any other fan, I didn't like how the anime tampered with the source material, but I understand why this is done and why it's neccessary. As a standalone, the anime does not have as much angst as the VN. In the VN, Shiki is literally haunted by his past, what happens to him with Sacchin, killing Arc, arc. A lot of that is vastly reduced in the anime, significantly toning down the angst. So the anime added a substitute malaise to maintain the atmosphere.

If taken as a standalone product, the depression wouldn't be a serious issue, but it is a dramatic change to Shiki's character.

Obviously Tsukihime is still a pretty average anime, the revelations at the end come too fast, the episodes are all... episodic. (By that I mean each episode had a too clearly stated 'main idea', and as a result each development seem to come in chunks rather than happen gradually in a way that's smoother.)

Probably because FSN is longer, it doesn't have that problem as much, the encounter with Beserker comes between the two fights with Assassin for example. But FSN's main story is much poorer than Tsukihime's. If you're interested you can read about my complaints on FSN's plot here: viewtopic.php?t=1890&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40
But back to the mainstory, that is the Saber relationship/plot.

One thing that really disturbed me was how child-like Saber acted. Sure she is a valient warrior, but she shows none of the sophistication one would expect from a 50 year old king, :shock: In fact, Arc (who's much younger... teenager? going by the time she's awake), acts far wiser than Saber. Her history and her past is complete non-sensical junk. The fact that she's a woman should've been a BIG deal, but it's extremely rudely ignored, especially in the light of Shirou's chauvinism. Saber never becomes a fully developed character (even as simplistically as most characters are developed in anime), and all throughout she feels extremely fake.

The character of Rin is also undeveloped, and in the anime really underutilized. Anyway, the fact of the matter is that Saber is a far less engaging storyline than Arc. FSN is really saved by the extensive array of supporting characters who make up for their lack of development by sheer coolness. But still, if the main story is bad, then it's hard to say positive things about FSN in general.

But this isn't neccessarily the anime's fault. The source material (VN), is weaker than Tsukihime's source material. I think in the entire game, Shirou is the only character that becomes developed, but with as large of a main cast as we have (Sakura, Saber, Rin, Einzbern... what a name lolz), that's not really acceptable.

Anyway, if I were to give both a score, they would both get 7, and both would be equally recommended. But Tsukihime is on the whole better eventhough it's not that good itself.

With a weaker cast, the only thing the FSN anime could've done to make itself good was to delve more into the plot. Lame revelation for lame revelation Tsukihime has more, *I bit the snake!, I'm a burier, I'm a zombie burier, I'm a zombie burier who was the snake!, vs, she's my sister! I'm sure there are things in HF that would've made convincing plot twists, and of course the whole UBW storyline, which would've made the entire thing far better. I think the anime producers should've made more of an effort to integrate UBW as the Fate story is just very weak.


I can say more... but I'm tired, hopefully this post makes more sense!
Last edited by Miraploy on July 6th, 2008, 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Cat Megex » July 2nd, 2008, 4:10 am

Miraploy wrote:Sorry, I can't believe I butchered that post so badly.

I like the Tsukihime anime more than I like the FSN anime.

Tsukihime and FSN share some very similar flaws. They leave out large parts of the storyline, and aside from the primary storyline, the little bits they include of the secondary storylines do not do the VNs justice.



<>


However, I actually really enjoyed the Tsukihime anime. I felt that the mood was much more coherant and focused, and some new events, such as the carnival, were well done. The carnival showed some interaction between the characters that we don't see in the novel and served as excellent character development. That scene really brought out the humanity in all the characters, in fact, I don't think 'identity', and 'self', wise, the VN goes any further than where the anime went. Sacchin's presence during the carnival was a really nice touch, especially since it means there's no woman in refrigerator syndrome. And that for me is auto-win.

The sections on Arc was terrifically done and done well. The entire mini-storyline was made so wel that I dont' think anyone can find fault with it.

One of the complaints I hear often about the anime was how depressed Shiki seemed. As any other fan, I didn't like how the anime tampered with the source material, but I understand why this is done and why it's neccessary. As a standalone, the anime does not have as much angst as the VN. In the VN, Shiki is literally haunted by his past, what happens to him with Sacchin, killing Arc, arc. A lot of that is vastly reduced in the anime, significantly toning down the angst. So the anime added a substitute malaise to maintain the atmosphere.

If taken as a standalone product, the depression wouldn't be a serious issue, but it is a dramatic change to Shiki's character.

Obviously Tsukihime is still a pretty average anime, the revelations at the end come too fast, the episodes are all... episodic. (By that I mean each episode had a too clearly stated 'main idea', and as a result each development seem to come in chunks rather than happen gradually in a way that's smoother.)

Probably because FSN is longer, it doesn't have that problem as much, the encounter with Beserker comes between the two fights with Assassin for example. But FSN's main story is much poorer than Tsukihime's. If you're interested you can read about my complaints on FSN's plot here: viewtopic.php?t=1890&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40

But back to the mainstory, that is the Saber relationship/plot.

One thing that really disturbed me was how child-like Saber acted. Sure she is a valient warrior, but she shows none of the sophistication one would expect from a 50 year old king, :shock: In fact, Arc (who's much younger... teenager? going by the time she's awake), acts far wiser than Saber. Her history and her past is complete non-sensical junk. The fact that she's a woman should've been a BIG deal, but it's extremely rudely ignored, especially in the light of Shirou's chauvinism. Saber never becomes a fully developed character (even as simplistically as most characters are developed in anime), and all throughout she feels extremely fake.

The character of Rin is also undeveloped, and in the anime really underutilized. Anyway, the fact of the matter is that Saber is a far less engaging storyline than Arc. FSN is really saved by the extensive array of supporting characters who make up for their lack of development by sheer coolness. But still, if the main story is bad, then it's hard to say positive things about FSN in general.

But this isn't neccessarily the anime's fault. The source material (VN), is weaker than Tsukihime's source material. I think in the entire game, Shirou is the only character that becomes developed, but with as large of a main cast as we have (Sakura, Saber, Rin, Einzbern... what a name lolz), that's not really acceptable.

Anyway, if I were to give both a score, they would both get 7, and both would be equally recommended. But Tsukihime is on the whole better eventhough it's not that good itself.

With a weaker cast, the only thing the FSN anime could've done to make itself good was to delve more into the plot. Lame revelation for lame revelation Tsukihime has more, *I bit the snake!, I'm a burier, I'm a zombie burier, I'm a zombie burier who was the snake!, vs, she's my sister! I'm sure there are things in HF that would've made convincing plot twists, and of course the whole UBW storyline, which would've made the entire thing far better. I think the anime producers should've made more of an effort to integrate UBW as the Fate story is just very weak.

I can say more... but I'm tired, hopefully this post makes more sense!


I actually think Saber is
more like 25 years old. She became king when she was around 14-15, I believe (in the VN, at least, she is said to be a year or so younger than Shirou, possibly even younger than Sakura), at which point she stopped aging physically, and then ruled for 10 years. If I'm missing something, somebody let me know.
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Unread postby Miraploy » July 2nd, 2008, 4:30 am

I got the impression from the historical stories that Arthur was pretty old when he died. Afterall, he's older than Guinevere who's significantly older than Lancelot, and Lancelot was no strapling himself, having a son who sits on the round table. Was it actually said that she ruled for 10 years in the VN? It's quite possible, Nasu messed with so many things... and I could've simply missed it.

But you don't think that Saber was actually a good, or well developed, or empathetic character right?

Oh, and besides having a better atmosphere I think Tsukihime had better music. :wink: But I don't really know anything about music and wouldn't stand by that in an argument.
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Unread postby Raitei » July 2nd, 2008, 4:44 am

Miraploy wrote:
I got the impression from the historical stories that Arthur was pretty old when he died. Afterall, he's older than Guinevere who's significantly older than Lancelot, and Lancelot was no strapling himself, having a son who sits on the round table. Was it actually said that she ruled for 10 years in the VN? It's quite possible, Nasu messed with so many things... and I could've simply missed it.

But you don't think that Saber was actually a good, or well developed, or empathetic character right?
erm, saber was still 16 when she drew caliburn and stopped ageing since. but as we know, each of the three heroines possesses a unique "character complex" of her own, and in saber's case, it was the "cute, girlish side" that tempered with her actions and decisions as a king. that's why she failed her duty. kansho explained better than me.
Kansho wrote:- Saber, a cocky knight of the past, killer of thousands with a "cold-king side" and a "cute-girlish side". A totally broken/wrong desire that she didn't recognize as a mistake. King complex, but her girl side never dissapeared, reason of her's downfall. She didn't get it at all until the end of Fate route. Also, Fate/Zero gives details about how a king must be, Saber isn't even close
sad truth, but still, it's true to a certain degree. (well yeah, saber did a good job, even though she's not that fitting into the role. you have to admit that.)


aside from that, I think the f/sn anime tried to create enough frametime for each character development, which was impossible to do in just 24 episodes. that's why it failed hard. :P

remember how fate shirou shifted character to be more like ubw shirou when he fought against kuzuki?
Last edited by Raitei on July 3rd, 2008, 5:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby Inverted » July 2nd, 2008, 5:37 am

It seems she is 25 .It was mentioned in the game ,in a dream sequence, that she fought 12 battles in 10 years, the final being Camelot. Nasu changed this as well.


BTW, I got the impression that the real Arthur was closer to 65 not 50.
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Unread postby Shirosaki » July 2nd, 2008, 10:15 pm

Inverted wrote:It seems she is 25 .It was mentioned in the game ,in a dream sequence, that she fought 12 battles in 10 years, the final being Camelot. Nasu changed this as well.


BTW, I got the impression that the real Arthur was closer to 65 not 50.

Yes but as Raitei explained she stopped aging once she drew caliburn so she has the body of a 16 year old and going by her mindset (not gonna spoil it...) she also thinks like a (mature) 16 year old.
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Unread postby Miraploy » July 3rd, 2008, 12:01 am

Inverted wrote:It seems she is 25 .It was mentioned in the game ,in a dream sequence, that she fought 12 battles in 10 years, the final being Camelot. Nasu changed this as well.

BTW, I got the impression that the real Arthur was closer to 65 not 50.


Interesting. Nasu really did a nosejob on British history.

Well I don't think we actually know how old Arthur is. I don't think there are specific dates (from the earlier sources at least, and the definitive dates are definitely made up), for his birth. So I think it's simply fair to say that he's somewhat past middle-age.
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Unread postby Raitei » July 3rd, 2008, 12:05 am

Miraploy wrote:
Well I don't think we actually know how old Arthur is. I don't think there are specific dates (from the earlier sources at least, and the definitive dates are definitely made up), for his birth. So I think it's simply fair to say that he's somewhat past middle-age.
on a different note, saber was born on 7th of july. so it's almost time for her birthday. :D

btw, back on topic guys, about why should we watch the anime. ;)
Last edited by Raitei on July 3rd, 2008, 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Cat Megex » July 3rd, 2008, 12:12 am

Raitei wrote:btw, back on topic guys, about why should we watch the anime. ;)


Because "People die when they are killed."
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Unread postby -[J1N]- » July 3rd, 2008, 1:45 am

Cat Megex wrote:Because "People die when they are killed."


O.O




..... Ahh, good point.
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Unread postby Einherjar » July 3rd, 2008, 2:51 am

Cat Megex wrote:Because "People die when they are killed."

ep.23 definitely worth watching.

Anyways, where did all the spoiler tags go?
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Unread postby -[J1N]- » July 3rd, 2008, 4:09 am

Spoiler tag? I don't really think that message spoils anything; I don't think think anyone will know what it means unless they've actually seen the scene. Besides, the quotes so popular I don't think anyone hasn't heard it yet =P. It's like saying
Romeo and Juliet DIEEEE!!!!!!!!!!
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