Questions about UBW (the RM) and alignments [pos. spoilers]

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chasmirror
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Unread post by chasmirror » May 25th, 2008, 9:58 pm

Kiirnodel wrote:
Brizzle wrote:This is not D&D. With Nasu, such things are not objective, but subjective. In the Nasuverse, belief is oftentimes stronger than fact. And if someone believes they are good, then that is their alignment.
The problem with that statement is the fact that the status screen is created subconsciously by Shirou, not by the Servant the stats are about... When they introduce the status screen they talk about how the stats can really be represented by anything, from colors to animals... Therefore, isn't the resulting information based on what Shirou thinks, rather than the Servant?
Actually, no. The alignment and all the status info about a Servant are about the Servants themselves. As a Master, Shiro gets access to that information supplied by the Grail once he sees and acknowledges the Servants. He doesn't get all of it, of course, and only receives bits and pieces that are limited by the circumstances.

The valued principles are greatly influenced by the place they serve as a Heroic Spirits. Despite being a tyrant, Gilgamesh is known as the hero in the legends, and therefore, he is set at Chaotic Good. Assassin and Caster, on the other hand, served more as an antagonist or the Anti-hero in their legends, so they are set as Evil.

Of course, the principle pursued by the heroic spirit themselves are still the base of the alignment. Gilgamesh, although his actions are selfish and dangerous, he sees himself as the almighty and always right. Therefore, even though any action taken by him seems selfish, he sees as his just right and duty as a hero and a king to do so. More importantly, his selfish actions, especially in the legends, ultimately benefitted his people, making him still on the side of Good.

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » May 25th, 2008, 11:05 pm

hmm, now I remember the fact that before hf 3 ( pre-avenger's summoning ), the spirits that are considered "heroic spirits" are only those who lean toward "good alignment", hence spirits like medusa and medea weren't considered as heroic spirits.

it's past hf 3 when the grail was corrupted and spirits like gilles de rais, whose alignment lean toward evil could ( or to be more precise, allowed ) to be summoned.
TYPE-MOON Wiki wrote:Additionally, since the corruption, the Grail has been able to summon evil-aligned Heroic Spirits; something that wasn't allowed before. Heroic Spirits are humans whose legends are passed down in the memory of humanity, regardless of their alignement; the Grail originally was allowed to summon only "good" Heroic Spirits, but ever since the corruption, spirits like Gilles de Rais, Medusa and Medea can be summoned despite being anti-heroes rather than heroes in the common understanding of the term.
hmm, here says that medusa is one of the "evil-aligned" heroes. but why "chaotic good" in the vn itself... care to think about it?
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

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Unread post by Kansho » May 26th, 2008, 12:08 am

► Show Spoiler
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » May 26th, 2008, 12:15 am

Kansho wrote:
► Show Spoiler
yeah, I know. but since eirei are based on humanity's belief, won't that belief affect her alignment? I mean, she was willing to sacrifice everybody in school just to gain power; why was she still classified as "chaotic good"? :?
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

Kansho
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Unread post by Kansho » May 26th, 2008, 12:19 am

Raitei wrote:
Kansho wrote:
► Show Spoiler
yeah, I know. but since eirei are based on humanity's belief, won't that belief affect her alignment? I mean, she was willing to sacrifice everybody in school just to gain power; why was she still classified as "chaotic good"? :?
No. Belief is a factor, but there is a basis. Belief can't morph the basis, only change it a bit, add things, etc... Avenger case was a exception of course.
► Show Spoiler
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » May 26th, 2008, 12:27 am

Kansho wrote:No. Belief is a factor, but there is a basis. Belief can't morph the basis, only change it a bit, add things, etc... Avenger case was a exception of course.
► Show Spoiler
okay, then. thanks for clearing it out.
hmm, regarding avenger, didn't avenger himself, with his hatred towards humanity who made his alignment change like that? I mean, he was innately a good person, but the deeds of the villagers is what transform him into that horrible monster, and not based on the belief?
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

Kansho
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Unread post by Kansho » May 26th, 2008, 12:32 am

Raitei wrote:
Kansho wrote:No. Belief is a factor, but there is a basis. Belief can't morph the basis, only change it a bit, add things, etc... Avenger case was a exception of course.
► Show Spoiler
okay, then. thanks for clearing it out.
hmm, regarding avenger, didn't avenger himself, with his hatred towards humanity who made his alignment change like that? I mean, he was innately a good person, but the deeds of the villagers is what transform him into that horrible monster, and not based on the belief?
Avenger case was... complicated. It have a bit of everything.

Arai explained it very well.
► Show Spoiler
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » May 26th, 2008, 12:41 am

Kansho wrote:Avenger case was... complicated. It have a bit of everything.

Arai explained it very well.
► Show Spoiler
er, yeah. that's exactly why I think his evil is mostly based on his hatred towards humanity (he consciously built his own alignment) rather than legends that shaped it. hence why I said he was no different than other heroic spirits in terms of alignment?
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

Brizzle
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Unread post by Brizzle » May 26th, 2008, 1:44 am

handey wrote:much like magic spells being actually engrish or gelman. :D
Actually, the incantations are important. They are a code that the magus has discovered that operates the "program" that is the magecraft. You do require the proper code to get the desired results.
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Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » May 26th, 2008, 1:57 am

Brizzle wrote:Actually, the incantations are important. They are a code that the magus has discovered that operates the "program" that is the magecraft. You do require the proper code to get the desired results.
not really. it IS important, but in a different sense.
► Show Spoiler
it's not like how it works in harry potter, you know, where incantations and wands are obligatory to perform the spell correctly :lol:
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

chasmirror
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Unread post by chasmirror » May 26th, 2008, 4:55 am

Raitei wrote:er, yeah. that's exactly why I think his evil is mostly based on his hatred towards humanity (he consciously built his own alignment) rather than legends that shaped it. hence why I said he was no different than other heroic spirits in terms of alignment?
Not quite. In case of Avenger, he is not really trying to achieve good nor is he trying so hard to act evil. He is just is, as "the Everything Evil in the World", a role that he had accepted after a long while. He knows ultimately what he is gives people comfort, thus earning him the title of a Heroic Spirit, but that is not what he had intended to be in the beginning. He was just forced the role on him and later had accepted it.

The alignment is not really that simple, just like there isn't always a clear line between right and wrong. Gilgamesh, despite his selfishness and lack of good intent, has alignment of Good because what he does somehow ultimately achieve Good. Avenger is the total opposite. In spite of how his role ultimately benefits people, he is still the evil because that is his role. There are some obvious cases, like Saber(Good) and Caster in the 4th Grail War(Evil), but otherwise the alignment of a Servant is a bit complicated.

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » May 26th, 2008, 5:29 am

chasmirror wrote:Not quite. In case of Avenger, he is not really trying to achieve good nor is he trying so hard to act evil. He is just is, as "the Everything Evil in the World", a role that he had accepted after a long while. He knows ultimately what he is gives people comfort, thus earning him the title of a Heroic Spirit, but that is not what he had intended to be in the beginning. He was just forced the role on him and later had accepted it.
I don't say he intended to from the beginning... it's just "it" was developed along the way, at the same time he began to develop his hatred towards humanity. let's just say he's like peter parker in spiderman 3. he know not where "that source of power" comes from, and didn't intend to obtain it by his own will.

but he knows of its side-effect later on, which would ultimately consume himself, and despite all those understandings, he kept on using that power even though he knew. same case goes for avenger. he was innately a good person, but "that event" is what made him like that.

and if you say that legends are the determinant factor in shaping a heroic spirit's alignment, or rather "it's a given role or consequences of his/her deeds", look at medusa. her "role". isn't that clear enough that the role given to her is pretty much the same as avenger's, given that people portray her as a gorgon monster, a threat to mankind ? ( of course. otherwise, those people from olympus wouldn't have ordered perseus to eliminate her. ) despite all those facts, she's still "chaotic good".

like kansho said, belief is a factor, but there is a basis. belief can't transform the basis, only change it a bit, add and subtract things, etc...
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

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Unread post by chasmirror » May 26th, 2008, 8:16 am

Raitei wrote: and if you say that legends are the determinant factor in shaping a heroic spirit's alignment, or rather "it's a given role or consequences of his/her deeds", look at medusa. her "role". isn't that clear enough that the role given to her is pretty much the same as avenger's, given that people portray her as a gorgon monster, a threat to mankind ? ( of course. otherwise, those people from olympus wouldn't have ordered perseus to eliminate her. ) despite all those facts, she's still "chaotic good".
Actually, Rider's case is a bit different. The Medusa in the Greek myth is the gorgon monster that threatened people, but the Nasuverse's Medusa is a little different. I cannot fully explain without spoiling too much on H/A, but Medusa in the Nasuverse is actually a divine being who only wished to protect her sisters. That is why her alignment is still "Good", despite her role as the Anti-hero in the legend. In short, Medusa/Rider is not the same Medusa/Gorgon that we know from the Greek myth.

If that doesn't convince you......

WARNING: A minor spoiler on H/A!
► Show Spoiler
But you and Kansho is right. Their beliefs are only a factor. The legends and stories about the Heroic Spirits might give them power and abilities they originally did not have, but it really can't totally transform them. Had it been the case, the Avenger would have been a deity, and Saber would have been a man!

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Unread post by Raitei » May 26th, 2008, 10:00 am

chasmirror wrote: Had it been the case, the Avenger would have been a deity, and Saber would have been a man!
hmm, I wonder if gods ( yeah, gods ) like hades and angra mainyu who fell under the category of evil aligned gods are still classified as deity / seirei / divine spirits...

and you don't have to remind me about saber, thank you. T_T

edit : and regarding what rider said... I'm not surprised; it might contain subjective perspective, given that she never got along well with him. (well, would YOU get along with the person who'd kill / killed you? apart from arcueid, of course :P)
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread post by chasmirror » May 26th, 2008, 6:43 pm

Raitei wrote:hmm, I wonder if gods ( yeah, gods ) like hades and angra mainyu who fell under the category of evil aligned gods are still classified as deity / seirei / divine spirits...
I'd guess so, but more importantly, if just the legends could totally change the truth, Avenger would have been more powerful than he actually is. Since he is not, it shows that legends can only change the truth to a certain extent.
Raitei wrote:and you don't have to remind me about saber, thank you. T_T
Sorry. :lol:
Raitei wrote:edit : and regarding what rider said... I'm not surprised; it might contain subjective perspective, given that she never got along well with him. (well, would YOU get along with the person who'd kill / killed you? apart from arcueid, of course :P)
True, but Rider is a very cool-headed being. She wouldn't judge a person solely by her feelings alone. Beside, Perseus' character seems more of an official setting, seeing as one of the bonus CG in H/A shows the sketches on him, and it actually looks a lot like Shinji.

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Unread post by Kansho » May 26th, 2008, 8:26 pm

chasmirror wrote:True, but Rider is a very cool-headed being. She wouldn't judge a person solely by her feelings alone. Beside, Perseus' character seems more of an official setting, seeing as one of the bonus CG in H/A shows the sketches on him, and it actually looks a lot like Shinji.
Said image, to interested people.
► Show Spoiler
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by zweiterversuch » May 26th, 2008, 9:48 pm

Kansho wrote:
chasmirror wrote:True, but Rider is a very cool-headed being. She wouldn't judge a person solely by her feelings alone. Beside, Perseus' character seems more of an official setting, seeing as one of the bonus CG in H/A shows the sketches on him, and it actually looks a lot like Shinji.
Said image, to interested people.
► Show Spoiler
That girl has no boobs...
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Unread post by BrianlAFl » May 26th, 2008, 9:58 pm

Regarding the Alignment discussion, while I was playing, I had always taken the Chaotic, Order, and Impartial types as the main order then added Good, Neutral, and Evil to that. I don't know if it is correct or not, but im just throwing in my two cents.

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Unread post by Raitei » May 27th, 2008, 12:53 am

zweiterversuch wrote:
Kansho wrote:
chasmirror wrote:True, but Rider is a very cool-headed being. She wouldn't judge a person solely by her feelings alone. Beside, Perseus' character seems more of an official setting, seeing as one of the bonus CG in H/A shows the sketches on him, and it actually looks a lot like Shinji.
Said image, to interested people.
► Show Spoiler
That girl has no boobs...
well, that is PERSEUS. what do you expect from that GUY, eh? :lol:
I think he resembled taiga a lot more than shinji :lol:
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread post by Cat Megex » May 27th, 2008, 1:46 am

Raitei wrote:I think he resembled taiga a lot more than shinji :lol:
...That is a weird (and slightly creepy) thought. XD

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