Questions about UBW (the RM) and alignments [pos. spoilers]

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Questions about UBW (the RM) and alignments [pos. spoilers]

Unread post by Cat Megex » May 22nd, 2008, 7:37 pm

1. Is Unlimited Blade Works (the Reality Marble) ever described as viewed from the outside? I don't remember it ever being described from an outsider's viewpoint in Fate or UBW, but if it is mentioned somewhere, what does it look like? If not, what do you guys think it looks like? (I, personally, think it might be like a big circle of fire, based on something from UBW where
► Show Spoiler
)

2. Certain characters do not seem to match up with their given alignments personality-wise and in regard to their actions (
► Show Spoiler
), so I was wondering if the alignments were simply based off of the legends about them and not on their actual personalities. Is that true? Or did Nasu just try to go with a D&D-style feel?
Last edited by Cat Megex on May 22nd, 2008, 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread post by flurk » May 22nd, 2008, 7:48 pm

geee very interesting questions!
imo about the alignments:
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Sir Bedevere: How do know so much about swallows?
King Arthur: Well, you have to know these things when you're a king, you know.

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Unread post by Cat Megex » May 22nd, 2008, 7:58 pm

flurk wrote:geee very interesting questions!
imo about the alignments:
► Show Spoiler
The problem there involves the "Good" part. You see, D&D tends to go more with an action-based alignment system than a thought-based one. In other words, even if a person thinks they're doing the right thing, if their actions reflect an element of evil (for instance, killing innocents, or in Gil's case,
► Show Spoiler
), they will be considered, at best, True Neutral (that is, Neutral Neutral) or Chaotic Neutral, and at worst, Chaotic Evil (note: Chaotic Insane does not exist in the D&D multiverse).

Here's an interesting example: Paladins can only be Lawful Good. If a paladin violates his/her/its creed or moral code, they lose their powers as a paladin. If a paladin subjectively keeps to the creed (that is, keeps to their creed according to their own perspective), but objectively violates it, that paladin would lose his/her/its powers as a paladin, and may in fact become a blackguard, which is basically the evil (or "dark") version of a paladin.


To reiterate: in Dungeons and Dragons, a character's alignment is based on its (honest) interactions with others and not so much on its beliefs or wants. This means that you can have two characters of Good alignment come in conflict with each other, if their objectives do not coincide (for example, if they are fighting on opposite sides in a war where each side is equally in the right).

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Unread post by Einherjar » May 22nd, 2008, 8:55 pm

Cat Megex wrote:
flurk wrote:geee very interesting questions!
imo about the alignments:
► Show Spoiler
The problem there involves the "Good" part. You see, D&D tends to go more with an action-based alignment system than a thought-based one. In other words, even if a person thinks they're doing the right thing, if their actions reflect an element of evil (for instance, killing innocents, or in Gil's case,
► Show Spoiler
), they will be considered, at best, True Neutral (that is, Neutral Neutral) or Chaotic Neutral, and at worst, Chaotic Evil (note: Chaotic Insane does not exist in the D&D multiverse).

Here's an interesting example: Paladins can only be Lawful Good. If a paladin violates his/her/its creed or moral code, they lose their powers as a paladin. If a paladin subjectively keeps to the creed (that is, keeps to their creed according to their own perspective), but objectively violates it, that paladin would lose his/her/its powers as a paladin, and may in fact become a blackguard, which is basically the evil (or "dark") version of a paladin.


To reiterate: in Dungeons and Dragons, a character's alignment is based on its (honest) interactions with others and not so much on its beliefs or wants. This means that you can have two characters of Good alignment come in conflict with each other, if their objectives do not coincide (for example, if they are fighting on opposite sides in a war where each side is equally in the right).
► Show Spoiler

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Unread post by chasmirror » May 22nd, 2008, 10:38 pm

Fate Side Material page 65 wrote: Alignment [ Miscellaneous ]

The alignment of each Servant which can be viewed on the Status screen.
It shows each one's valued principle and the personality.
It is interesting to compare them so I have listed them.

Saber Order - Good
Lancer Order - Neutral
Archer Impartial - Neutral
Rider Chaos - Good
Caster Impartial - Evil
Berserker Chaos - Berserk
Assassin* Order - Evil
Kojiro** Impartial - Evil
Gilgamesh Chaos - Good
BSaber*** Order - Evil

The disagreement between personalities are not a big problem, but the discord seem to increase if the valued principles are the same?
Saber and Gilgamesh are a good example.

*Here it means True Assassin, not Sasaki Kojiro.
**Kojiro = Assassin
***BSaber = Black Saber
I think that the "personality" part(Order/Impartial/Chaos) influences how they pursue their valued principle. For example, Saber said when she first met Shiro that she would do anything in her power to do what Shiro commanded her. When the disturbed Shiro asked if she would even harm regular people if ordered, she answered that it would be something impossible for her since as a knight, she could not do such a thing. Therefore, she would pursue "Good" within the boundary of "Order".

Gilgamesh, on the other hand, is almost opposite. Even though he was a hero who had accomplished many feats, he was a tyrant as a ruler. He would take what he wanted and do what he wished. His action would seem selfish at the time, but ultimately people would benefit from it, despite the fact that it probably wasn't purely his intention. That is how he pursues "Good" in "Chaotic" ways.

Assassin(Kojiro here) is a special case. He is not really THE Sasaki Kojiro since he is not regarded as a real person(at least in Nasuverse), and a no-name spirit was called to PLAY the part of Sasaki Kojiro as a Servant. Since Musashi is a hero, and like Einherjar said, Sasaki Kojiro is someone who fought the hero, and thus Anti-Hero. So regardless of the true alignment of the actual spirit playing the part of Kojiro, Assassin, as the Sasaki Kojiro character, has Evil as his valued principle.

Berserker is another special case because, well, he is in BERSERK state.

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Unread post by Cat Megex » May 22nd, 2008, 10:49 pm

chasmirror wrote:I think that the "personality" part(Order/Impartial/Chaos) influences how they pursue their valued principle. For example, Saber said when she first met Shiro that she would do anything in her power to do what Shiro commanded her. When the disturbed Shiro asked if she would even harm regular people if ordered, she answered that it would be something impossible for her since as a knight, she could not do such a thing. Therefore, she would pursue "Good" within the boundary of "Order".

Gilgamesh, on the other hand, is almost opposite. Even though he was a hero who had accomplished many feats, he was a tyrant as a ruler. He would take what he wanted and do what he wished. His action would seem selfish at the time, but ultimately people would benefit from it, despite the fact that it probably wasn't purely his intention. That is how he pursues "Good" in "Chaotic" ways.

Assassin(Kojiro here) is a special case. He is not really THE Sasaki Kojiro since he is not regarded as a real person(at least in Nasuverse), and a no-name spirit was called to PLAY the part of Sasaki Kojiro as a Servant. Since Musashi is a hero, and like Einherjar said, Sasaki Kojiro is someone who fought the hero, and thus Anti-Hero. So regardless of the true alignment of the actual spirit playing the part of Kojiro, Assassin, as the Sasaki Kojiro character, has Evil as his valued principle.

Berserker is another special case because, well, he is in BERSERK state.

Hmmm...I see. Thanks! (Although...the way Gilgamesh is described here, he seems more Chaotic Neutral than Chaotic Good. However, going by what I remember of the Epic of Gilgamesh, that Gilgamesh was indeed Chaotic Good if you go by what's here [well, after he meets and befriends Enkidu, at least].)



Now all that's left is my first question...XD *goes to watch Kara no Kyoukai movie 1 while he waits for another post*

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Re: Questions about UBW (the RM) and alignments [pos. spoile

Unread post by chasmirror » May 23rd, 2008, 12:00 am

Cat Megex wrote:1. Is Unlimited Blade Works (the Reality Marble) ever described as viewed from the outside? I don't remember it ever being described from an outsider's viewpoint in Fate or UBW, but if it is mentioned somewhere, what does it look like? If not, what do you guys think it looks like? (I, personally, think it might be like a big circle of fire, based on something from UBW where
► Show Spoiler
)
There really isn't any clear explanation about this. Only two Reality Marbles are recorded to have been observed from outside: one was "the Soil of Genesis" by Nrvnqsr Chaos(Nero) in Tsukihime, and the other was "the Army of the King" by Rider in Fate/Zero.

"The Soil of Genesis" was the Reality Marble within Nero's body(he did so to avoid having it corrected by the Universe). Shiki described it as dark pitch void, something that the interior cannot be seen.

WARNING: Here follows a brief spoiler about Fate/Zero.
► Show Spoiler
So at least these two Reality Marbles cannot be observed from outside when activated. It is not certain if this is a common characteristic of all Reality Marble, though.

However, since "the Army of the King" Reality Marble takes place in an unknown world unlike where it is originally activated, which does coincides with the UBW which substantiate Shiro's inner world, it is likely that it works like transportation. The activator and the object or the objects get sucked in to appear in a whole new world(albeit temporary), while on the real world, they simply disappear.

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Re: Questions about UBW (the RM) and alignments [pos. spoile

Unread post by Cat Megex » May 23rd, 2008, 12:10 am

chasmirror wrote:There really isn't any clear explanation about this. Only two Reality Marbles are recorded to have been observed from outside: one was "the Soil of Genesis" by Nrvnqsr Chaos(Nero) in Tsukihime, and the other was "the Army of the King" by Rider in Fate/Zero.

"The Soil of Genesis" was the Reality Marble within Nero's body(he did so to avoid having it corrected by the Universe). Shiki described it as dark pitch void, something that the interior cannot be seen.

WARNING: Here follows a brief spoiler about Fate/Zero.
► Show Spoiler
So at least these two Reality Marbles cannot be observed from outside when activated. It is not certain if this is a common characteristic of all Reality Marble, though.

However, since "the Army of the King" Reality Marble takes place in an unknown world unlike where it is originally activated, which does coincides with the UBW which substantiate Shiro's inner world, it is likely that it works like transportation. The activator and the object or the objects get sucked in to appear in a whole new world(albeit temporary), while on the real world, they simply disappear.
Oh, I see...hm. I suppose that does make sense. (Except for the part about a character who is no longer supposed to have any significant intelligence being able to pilot an F15....)

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Re: Questions about UBW (the RM) and alignments [pos. spoile

Unread post by chasmirror » May 23rd, 2008, 12:15 am

Cat Megex wrote:
chasmirror wrote:There really isn't any clear explanation about this. Only two Reality Marbles are recorded to have been observed from outside: one was "the Soil of Genesis" by Nrvnqsr Chaos(Nero) in Tsukihime, and the other was "the Army of the King" by Rider in Fate/Zero.

"The Soil of Genesis" was the Reality Marble within Nero's body(he did so to avoid having it corrected by the Universe). Shiki described it as dark pitch void, something that the interior cannot be seen.

WARNING: Here follows a brief spoiler about Fate/Zero.
► Show Spoiler
So at least these two Reality Marbles cannot be observed from outside when activated. It is not certain if this is a common characteristic of all Reality Marble, though.

However, since "the Army of the King" Reality Marble takes place in an unknown world unlike where it is originally activated, which does coincides with the UBW which substantiate Shiro's inner world, it is likely that it works like transportation. The activator and the object or the objects get sucked in to appear in a whole new world(albeit temporary), while on the real world, they simply disappear.
Oh, I see...hm. I suppose that does make sense. (Except for the part about a character who is no longer supposed to have any significant intelligence being able to pilot an F15....)
Actually, that is a part of his NB.
► Show Spoiler

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Re: Questions about UBW (the RM) and alignments [pos. spoile

Unread post by Cat Megex » May 23rd, 2008, 12:51 am

chasmirror wrote:Actually, that is a part of his NB.
► Show Spoiler
...Shouldn't that be "NP"? Anyway...yow. o_o

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Unread post by handey » May 23rd, 2008, 1:59 pm

rather minor fate&ubw spoilers ahead.
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Unread post by Brizzle » May 23rd, 2008, 5:10 pm

handey wrote:rather minor fate&ubw spoilers ahead.
► Show Spoiler
► Show Spoiler
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Unread post by Zensunni » May 23rd, 2008, 8:49 pm

Gilgamesh is a tough case. His own conviction that he's doing things for the greater good doesn't make him good. He doesn't kill on a whim but only for his objectives, he has somewhat of a personal code of honor, even. He also suffers from a severe case of god complex and thinks he has the right to decide for the entire humanity.

Kinda like Light in death note, yes? He's methodically evil, so neutral evil.

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Unread post by Brizzle » May 23rd, 2008, 9:47 pm

I think in Nasu-verse alignment, the way you see yourself matters more than how you are seen. To me, that seems to fit Kinoko's philosophical ideas. Caster seems to think what she's doing is evil and doesn't care. She was called a witch, so that's what she became. Gil thinks he's doing good, therefore he's good.

Also, Gil is allowed to have a God-complex seeing as how he is 2/3 of one.
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Unread post by handey » May 24th, 2008, 8:36 pm

Brizzle wrote:
handey wrote:rather minor fate&ubw spoilers ahead.
► Show Spoiler
► Show Spoiler
► Show Spoiler
also, a tyrant is not neutral evil, its lawful evil.
which, ironically, is the polar opposite of chaotic good, but now i think it fits him best. utter disregard for others' well-being and obsession about power, possesion, rather than destruction, yeah, i think he's more lawful evil than chaotic evil.
also, he's 2/3 god, while he has a God complex. notice capitalization. ;) he thinks himself to be the owner of the universe, while he's supposedly of divine heritage - but sumerian pantheon was polytheistic, not monoteistic, so.. well, i think you get what i mean. ;)

on a sidenote - light, with his obsession about law, was lawful neutral more than neutral evil - much like vhailor, if you're into planescape. at least, that was the truth in the beginning, though his god complex could slide him towards evil, but that doesn't change much on law-chaos axis, or maybe it even pushes him further towards the law.

another sidenote: afaik in d&d belief is ALL that makes alignment, but it doesn't matter if you think you are good or evil, but rather what you believe in - in d&d there are objective ideals of good, evil, chaos and law, and what makes you good/evil/chaotic/lawful is acting in accord with the ideals, not where you think you are. so, for a simple example, if someone's insane and thinks what he does is real good, while the only thing he does is slaughtering people all around him, he's still chaotic evil.

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Unread post by Brizzle » May 25th, 2008, 4:48 am

This is not D&D. With Nasu, such things are not objective, but subjective. In the Nasuverse, belief is oftentimes stronger than fact. And if someone believes they are good, then that is their alignment.
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Unread post by Kiirnodel » May 25th, 2008, 6:53 am

Brizzle wrote:This is not D&D. With Nasu, such things are not objective, but subjective. In the Nasuverse, belief is oftentimes stronger than fact. And if someone believes they are good, then that is their alignment.
The problem with that statement is the fact that the status screen is created subconsciously by Shirou, not by the Servant the stats are about... When they introduce the status screen they talk about how the stats can really be represented by anything, from colors to animals... Therefore, isn't the resulting information based on what Shirou thinks, rather than the Servant?

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Unread post by Tarakona » May 25th, 2008, 7:33 am

I would think the base information would be the same, the difference between what Masters see being purely superficial.

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Unread post by SeruraRenge » May 25th, 2008, 8:40 am

Kiirnodel wrote:
Brizzle wrote:This is not D&D. With Nasu, such things are not objective, but subjective. In the Nasuverse, belief is oftentimes stronger than fact. And if someone believes they are good, then that is their alignment.
The problem with that statement is the fact that the status screen is created subconsciously by Shirou, not by the Servant the stats are about... When they introduce the status screen they talk about how the stats can really be represented by anything, from colors to animals... Therefore, isn't the resulting information based on what Shirou thinks, rather than the Servant?
if that's the case, why does Shirou see Gil, a person he hates, as being Chaotic Good? Wouldn't his own personal judgement kinda warp his opinion on a person and their motives?

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Unread post by handey » May 25th, 2008, 12:35 pm

Brizzle wrote:This is not D&D. With Nasu, such things are not objective, but subjective. In the Nasuverse, belief is oftentimes stronger than fact. And if someone believes they are good, then that is their alignment.
the same is true in d&d. the objective ideals are a result of collective belief shared by beings across the planes, at least that's how i view it, since in planes, EVERYTHING depends on belief. what matters is how many beings believe in something, how powerful they are and how strongly they believe.
i still think the alignments are there to look cool, not to provide any actual information.

much like magic spells being actually engrish or gelman. :D

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