Questions I came across while playing (Fate spoilers)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

Moderator: Staffers

Raitei
OMG! WTF WHO SET THIS TITLE! LULZ
Posts: 2277
Joined: August 7th, 2007, 12:26 pm
Location: Distant wilderness

Unread post by Raitei » April 25th, 2008, 12:46 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
► Show Spoiler
Am I being confusing enough? :P
lol, but he CAN use excalibur
► Show Spoiler
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

WingZero
Crack Desu!
Posts: 392
Joined: December 21st, 2007, 10:49 pm

Unread post by WingZero » April 25th, 2008, 2:00 am

Not enough prana to power it.

inferno_flamex
DESU DESU!
Posts: 832
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere that's raining Bishoujos

Unread post by inferno_flamex » April 25th, 2008, 4:34 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote: Lol, just thinking out loud, Overedge may even have nothing to do with Kanshou & Bakuya. Overedge involves 3 pairs of the swords AND reinforcement, so I doubt the original swords contain this technique, it is most certainly Archer's creaction. In another words, ARCHER MOST LIKELY DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO INVOKE THE ORIGINAL POWERS ASSOCIATED WITH KANSHOU AND BAKUYA.
Hmm.. Okay.. Does that mean....

Not knowing how to activate = He has no knowledge what the original power even do...

Or are you saying that...

As long as he 'knows' how to activate it and what does the powers do.. He can 'activate' it?
"When a petanko hugs you, she's hugging closer to her heart"...
~:~:~
"There is no greater love, between a boy and his pillow"
~:~:~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_FT_c3IiQ

Raitei
OMG! WTF WHO SET THIS TITLE! LULZ
Posts: 2277
Joined: August 7th, 2007, 12:26 pm
Location: Distant wilderness

Unread post by Raitei » April 25th, 2008, 5:30 am

WingZero wrote:Not enough prana to power it.
now, this is news for me ;)
seems quite logical, seeing that his magical energy level is... B!? nah, are you sure that he can't afford to use it by his own prana? :?
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

Kansho
DESU DESU!
Posts: 740
Joined: May 9th, 2007, 12:16 pm

Unread post by Kansho » April 25th, 2008, 10:02 am

► Show Spoiler
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » April 25th, 2008, 5:13 pm

@Raitei,
► Show Spoiler
@inferno_flamex,
► Show Spoiler

Raitei
OMG! WTF WHO SET THIS TITLE! LULZ
Posts: 2277
Joined: August 7th, 2007, 12:26 pm
Location: Distant wilderness

Unread post by Raitei » April 25th, 2008, 9:03 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:@Raitei,
► Show Spoiler
maybe he means that a "user-owner" is an owner whose weapon is the sole trademark of his/her. take a look at saber, or lancer, whose identities turn clear when they used their NP. gil and shirou, on the other hand, don't have a "weapon trademark". their true trademark is either the reality marble for shirou, or gob for gil ( and ea ). that's why there said something like that in fate archer vs berserker. "for a hero that possesses such various abilities, his identity should have been clear by now. but. his identity remains unknown even though he had shown such widely ranged skills."
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

chasmirror
Crack Addic!
Posts: 148
Joined: June 22nd, 2007, 1:09 am
Location: Indiana

Unread post by chasmirror » April 29th, 2008, 10:49 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
► Show Spoiler
Simple. It's only the matter of mastery.
► Show Spoiler
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
► Show Spoiler
You're right.
► Show Spoiler

Einherjar
OMEGA DESU!
Posts: 1036
Joined: August 26th, 2007, 1:25 am
Location: Away
Contact:

Unread post by Einherjar » April 30th, 2008, 3:33 pm

I don't think mastery is the issue since Shirou completely traced the weapon, it cluding all the memory behind it (like when he's fighting Gil if FATE). It's more about fame and how king Arthur is known for using Excalibur where as no one knows about the weapon Gil uses. Shirou's NP will decrease by an rank, and Gil's doesn't know how do use the weapons (except for a few) so he just rains them down like arrows.

chasmirror
Crack Addic!
Posts: 148
Joined: June 22nd, 2007, 1:09 am
Location: Indiana

Unread post by chasmirror » May 1st, 2008, 3:03 am

Einherjar wrote:I don't think mastery is the issue since Shirou completely traced the weapon, it cluding all the memory behind it (like when he's fighting Gil if FATE). It's more about fame and how king Arthur is known for using Excalibur where as no one knows about the weapon Gil uses. Shirou's NP will decrease by an rank, and Gil's doesn't know how do use the weapons (except for a few) so he just rains them down like arrows.
Actually, the mastery does matter.

Shiro traces the weapon with the information regarding it, yes. However, he only traces the weapon's memory, not the user's(In case of Caliburn, it had more to do with his connection with Saber, not the sword). So he would know how to use the weapon as much as someone who has read its manual. However, a true master of a weapon can use the weapon beyond its intended use.

As for Gil, he simply just doesn't care.

Einherjar
OMEGA DESU!
Posts: 1036
Joined: August 26th, 2007, 1:25 am
Location: Away
Contact:

Unread post by Einherjar » May 1st, 2008, 1:37 pm

chasmirror wrote:
Einherjar wrote:I don't think mastery is the issue since Shirou completely traced the weapon, it cluding all the memory behind it (like when he's fighting Gil if FATE). It's more about fame and how king Arthur is known for using Excalibur where as no one knows about the weapon Gil uses. Shirou's NP will decrease by an rank, and Gil's doesn't know how do use the weapons (except for a few) so he just rains them down like arrows.
Actually, the mastery does matter.

Shiro traces the weapon with the information regarding it, yes. However, he only traces the weapon's memory, not the user's(In case of Caliburn, it had more to do with his connection with Saber, not the sword). So he would know how to use the weapon as much as someone who has read its manual. However, a true master of a weapon can use the weapon beyond its intended use.

As for Gil, he simply just doesn't care.
ER, I believe that's not true as I've recalled somewhere it said that it memorized the weapon proficiency based on the master before it. Reading a manual doesn't make any sense since I can argue that where does this "manual" come from? when people (or faeries) create a weapon, it's just a weapon. And how is
► Show Spoiler
"However, a true master of a weapon can use the weapon beyond its intended use."
You know, there isn't really a true master since the Caliburn isn't made for saber. And how to weapons go beyond it's intended use??? If you same maximum potential it's fine but...

"As for Gil, he simply just doesn't care."

I think we all know that Gil doesn't know how to use most of the weapons except for Ea, Durendal, Enkidu and other ones. Saying he doesn't care is just a plain excuse.

chasmirror
Crack Addic!
Posts: 148
Joined: June 22nd, 2007, 1:09 am
Location: Indiana

Unread post by chasmirror » May 2nd, 2008, 5:00 pm

Einherjar wrote:ER, I believe that's not true as I've recalled somewhere it said that it memorized the weapon proficiency based on the master before it. Reading a manual doesn't make any sense since I can argue that where does this "manual" come from? when people (or faeries) create a weapon, it's just a weapon. And how is
► Show Spoiler
"However, a true master of a weapon can use the weapon beyond its intended use."
You know, there isn't really a true master since the Caliburn isn't made for saber. And how to weapons go beyond it's intended use??? If you same maximum potential it's fine but...
Okay, let me explain this further. Being an owner of a weapon is like owning a basketball. You know how to dribble it, and you know the rules of games enough to play a game or two with your buddies. But, being a true user is like being a pro NBA player. Not only you can do simple skills associated with the ball, you can do much more, like no-look pass or fancy crossover. Those kinds of skills you need to acquire by drilling them into your BODY, not the ball.

When Shiro traces a weapon, he can use all the abilities WITHIN the weapon, but that is it. He does not have mastery nor enough experience to fight against its true user on par with the same weapon. He can invoke the weapon's True Name, but that doesn't mean he can fight against an expert at the level of a Servant. The swords can give Shiro the basic information about what it can do, but it cannot teach him to be an expert by just holding it. It simply doesn't work that way. Ones like Saber or Assassin, who has literally spent all their lives fighting with them, has so much skills and experiences stacked up within her or his body that having the same weapon just isn't enough. After all, a real swordfight is not like the game. You can't really beat your opponent by just holding a better weapon.

Einherjar wrote: "As for Gil, he simply just doesn't care."

I think we all know that Gil doesn't know how to use most of the weapons except for Ea, Durendal, Enkidu and other ones. Saying he doesn't care is just a plain excuse.
What I meant was that he never cared to master any weapon because he never needed to. One can even say he is not even an expert of Ea, since he simply needs to aim and shoot with it. Even with Durendal, he is not very adept at using it. He just know how to unleash its power, as it was intended. However, because he has so much arsenal ready at his hand, he never really needed to master a weapon. He just needs to throw them at his opponents, and he can afford to, because he owns them all!

Einherjar
OMEGA DESU!
Posts: 1036
Joined: August 26th, 2007, 1:25 am
Location: Away
Contact:

Unread post by Einherjar » May 2nd, 2008, 6:51 pm

chasmirror wrote:
Okay, let me explain this further. Being an owner of a weapon is like owning a basketball. You know how to dribble it, and you know the rules of games enough to play a game or two with your buddies. But, being a true user is like being a pro NBA player. Not only you can do simple skills associated with the ball, you can do much more, like no-look pass or fancy crossover. Those kinds of skills you need to acquire by drilling them into your BODY, not the ball.

When Shiro traces a weapon, he can use all the abilities WITHIN the weapon, but that is it. He does not have mastery nor enough experience to fight against its true user on par with the same weapon. He can invoke the weapon's True Name, but that doesn't mean he can fight against an expert at the level of a Servant. The swords can give Shiro the basic information about what it can do, but it cannot teach him to be an expert by just holding it. It simply doesn't work that way. Ones like Saber or Assassin, who has literally spent all their lives fighting with them, has so much skills and experiences stacked up within her or his body that having the same weapon just isn't enough. After all, a real swordfight is not like the game. You can't really beat your opponent by just holding a better weapon.
I'm going to say this again:
► Show Spoiler

chasmirror
Crack Addic!
Posts: 148
Joined: June 22nd, 2007, 1:09 am
Location: Indiana

Unread post by chasmirror » May 3rd, 2008, 3:41 am

Einherjar wrote: I'm going to say this again:
► Show Spoiler
Not quite.
► Show Spoiler

Einherjar
OMEGA DESU!
Posts: 1036
Joined: August 26th, 2007, 1:25 am
Location: Away
Contact:

Unread post by Einherjar » May 5th, 2008, 9:55 pm

chasmirror wrote:
Einherjar wrote: I'm going to say this again:
► Show Spoiler
Not quite.
► Show Spoiler
1.
► Show Spoiler
2.That wouldn't be called skill. It simply means that Lancer or Saber will be faster, stronger. By tracing the weapon, Shirou is able to use the weapon well. You made it sound like if Shirou trace kanshou and Bykuya against Saber, he would be screwed since he didn't trace Saber's sword, therefore doesn't know Saber's moves,
► Show Spoiler
Same case with Gil. Shirou doesn't know the way Gil fight, but He fought until his body couldn't take it anymore since he only has a human body and can't stand the sword impacts he made with Gil. He lost because Caliburn broke in the end. Shirou probably won't be as good as Saber if he holds an Excalibur, but I don't think it has anything to do with Kenjutsu.

chasmirror
Crack Addic!
Posts: 148
Joined: June 22nd, 2007, 1:09 am
Location: Indiana

Unread post by chasmirror » May 7th, 2008, 6:53 pm

Einherjar wrote:
1.
► Show Spoiler
► Show Spoiler
Einherjar wrote: 2.That wouldn't be called skill. It simply means that Lancer or Saber will be faster, stronger. By tracing the weapon, Shirou is able to use the weapon well. You made it sound like if Shirou trace kanshou and Bykuya against Saber, he would be screwed since he didn't trace Saber's sword, therefore doesn't know Saber's moves,
► Show Spoiler
I don't think you are getting my point. You cannot perform a skill just because you know its movement. You have to be fast, strong, or agile enough to perform it. Shiro simply isn't. He might be able to KNOW the skill by tracing the weapon, but he still cannot LEARN it. What I am trying to emphesize here is that just because Shiro traces Saber's sword, doesn't mean he can fight on far with Saber with that weapon.
► Show Spoiler
Einherjar wrote: Same case with Gil. Shirou doesn't know the way Gil fight, but He fought until his body couldn't take it anymore since he only has a human body and can't stand the sword impacts he made with Gil. He lost because Caliburn broke in the end. Shirou probably won't be as good as Saber if he holds an Excalibur, but I don't think it has anything to do with Kenjutsu.
Actually, this is what I am trying to convey. Gil, just like Shiro, is an OWNER, not a TRUE USER. That is why Shiro could beat him with UBW, even though he wouldn't stand a chance against other Servants. His UBW, when used correctly, can nullify Gil's strength of always owning something that can pick on his opponent's weakness. This is why Saber can beat Shiro, Gil can beat Saber, and Shiro can beat Gil.

es21fanboy
Totally hardly posted
Posts: 10
Joined: March 28th, 2008, 9:49 pm

Unread post by es21fanboy » May 7th, 2008, 11:08 pm

I have a power-level question.

What is the general power of a counter-guardian compared to that of a servant?

Raitei
OMG! WTF WHO SET THIS TITLE! LULZ
Posts: 2277
Joined: August 7th, 2007, 12:26 pm
Location: Distant wilderness

Unread post by Raitei » May 7th, 2008, 11:13 pm

es21fanboy wrote:I have a power-level question.

What is the general power of a counter-guardian compared to that of a servant?
most likely, they are weaker than normal heroic spirit in terms of raw status, because people has no faith or belief in them.
► Show Spoiler
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

chasmirror
Crack Addic!
Posts: 148
Joined: June 22nd, 2007, 1:09 am
Location: Indiana

Unread post by chasmirror » May 8th, 2008, 12:20 am

es21fanboy wrote:I have a power-level question.

What is the general power of a counter-guardian compared to that of a servant?
That varies.

Any heroic spirits, whether they are a CG or not, can be summoned as a Servant, so it is really not clear to say one is more powerful than others. Also, not every heroic spirits serve as CGs. Only a few of them, like Archer who made a contract with the Universe, serves as a CG. However, it would be fair to assume that a heroic spirit would have more mana reserve as a CG(having the Universe as the source of power) than a Servant.

I think it is important to clear something here. A Servant is not a general concept in Nasuverse. What I mean is that not everyone(mage or not) is aware of the concept of having a heroic spirit as a Servant. It is exclusive within the Fuyuki Grail War, and would not be seen outside of that city. No heroic spirit would heed to a human Master's order, or the initial summoning. Only something as valuable as the Grail would be tempting enough to summon one(even then, some like Lancer didn't want it. He just wanted to fight.), which is not something that can be easily found. The idea of summoning a Servant is the product of the cooperation by three mage family, each with their own specialty that contributed to the completion of the concept. So you would not see a Servant outside of the Fuyuki Grail War.

Raitei
OMG! WTF WHO SET THIS TITLE! LULZ
Posts: 2277
Joined: August 7th, 2007, 12:26 pm
Location: Distant wilderness

Unread post by Raitei » May 8th, 2008, 12:52 am

I'm tired of all these baseless assumptions, so I'll just quote something from the wiki:
TYPE-MOON Wiki wrote:Counter Guardians

Counter Guardians (カウンターガーディアン, Counter Guardians?) are also known as guardians of balance (抑止の守護者, yokushi no shugosha?).

Apart from those who became heroes by their own strength, there are those who can make a contract with the World (here, Alaya, AKA Arayashiki) to "become a hero in this world in exchange of becoming a Heroic Spirit after death".

Those who became heroes through a contract with the World, and those who have no legend and were not observed or believed in, join the big classification of "Guardians" and are used by a mindless "Counter Force" (hence they are usually referred to as "Counter Guardians"). Heroic Spirits who became heroes through their own power are not used by the Counter Force.

In Fate, Emiya is one of those Guardians.

Guardians have no free will, they are only a "force". They come out only to protect humans, when a "factor of destruction of the world" appears; they are the extermination weapons that will annihilate that factor. If humans happen to be the "factor" of their own destruction, then they become the target of that extermination. In brief, by killing all humans on the place they appear at, they save humanity as a whole. They are anti-heroes, cleaners called out when something is causing harm.

The other Heroic Spirits are existences with a higher divinity ranking, closer to the existence of a planet than of a human, therefore they do not have to become Guardians.

Heroic Spirits

Heroic Spirits (英霊, eirei?) are higher existences who have the power to "protect humans". As heroes, they became the subjects of faith. They are taken out of the cycle of transmigration of the soul, and are sublimed from the spiritual plane to the equivalent of divine spirits, rather than ghosts, close to devils and angels.

Basically, Heroic Spirits were people who became heroes, and those who knew of them deified their existence. A spirit is a "power" materialized through the mainframe that is the image people have of it; based on that, a Heroic Spirit is the compilation of what humans idealize of him. Hence, Heroic Spirits can be influenced by the degree of familiarity people have with them through the world.

Of Heroic Spirits, there is their legends, reality, and what has not been witnessed. Unrelated to the authenticity, if there is a strong enough belief and popularity of their existence, then they can have an embodiment.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

Post Reply