Questions I came across while playing (Fate spoilers)

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WingZero
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Unread post by WingZero » April 21st, 2008, 3:59 am

@ Raitei: No he cannot. Shirou explicitly said so when he traced Caliburn.

(That's why Saber had to hold the blade w/ Shirou)

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Unread post by Dante Obscuri » April 21st, 2008, 4:00 am

Raitei wrote:
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Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » April 21st, 2008, 4:40 am

Dante Obscuri wrote:
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Dante Obscuri wrote:
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WingZero wrote:@ Raitei: No he cannot. Shirou explicitly said so when he traced Caliburn.

(That's why Saber had to hold the blade w/ Shirou)
edit : or maybe... I'm starting to confuse all the three shirous with one another (and maybe, I'm also dragging archer in this matter)? :P
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

Dante Obscuri
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Unread post by Dante Obscuri » April 21st, 2008, 4:56 am

Raitei wrote:
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Raitei wrote:
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Raitei wrote:
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Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » April 21st, 2008, 5:11 am

Dante Obscuri wrote:
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Dante Obscuri wrote:
Raitei wrote:
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Archer, as quoted from fuyuki wiki
Fuyukiwiki wrote:His room had all the "books" from the start.
WingZero wrote:@ Raitei: No he cannot. Shirou explicitly said so when he traced Caliburn.

(That's why Saber had to hold the blade w/ Shirou)
hmm, but he could later on. parrying gil's attacks with caliburn, isn't that enough?
Off Topic
or that he could, in terms of ubw, or hf :P
also, archer.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

inferno_flamex
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Unread post by inferno_flamex » April 21st, 2008, 7:52 am

Dante Obscuri wrote:
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The way you said that sounds like...

No wait.. There's already a spoiler notice on the topic head.. So we should stop using spoiler tags as of now...

Ehem.. As i was saying..
The way you said that sounds like as if Saber's REAL Avalon has somesort of link with the projected one that Shirou made... In a more direct comparison.. What you're saying is projected Avalon is like a mirror of the REAL Avalon.

If REAL Avalon is activated, even if Shirou DOESNT WANT IT TO... His projection WILL activate... That's the train of thought that im getting here...

I still remember how they both activated Avalon's power AT THE SAME TIME.. But i dont think that gives enough grounds as to why he needed Saber's permission to activate it... I think of this scene as the EPIC climax, where both characters showed their 'trump card'... But it just so happens that their Trump are almost one of the same. Signifying the similarities of the 2 characteristics...

And that it happened at the same time... For a much better effect, just for the sake of story-telling... Showing the 2 lead characters defeating their counterparts at PRECISELY the EXACT moment...

Not to mention that it also enabled the 2 scenes where Shirou and Saber are 'reaching out' for Avalon... But with smart VN storytelling.. It looked as if both Shirou and Saber shared the same Avalon, and that their arms looked like as if they were reacthing towards EACH OTHER in this final moment of an all or nothing attack...

And Archer himself told Shirou that his own limitations is himself... That the only thing he can do well is create. So if the only thing he can do is create... As i said before.. He can create an Avalon without the need for a real king or anything else that he finds that is not to his fancy

Also maybe Gram... I think that is the sword that brings only doom. Even towards its user... But if Shirou were to Project Gram, he has the ability to alter that curse it brings towards it's user... because if that's the way he wants it to be created, he could...

What im trying to say is.....

'Create' != 'Copy' ~ Uhhmm.. Correct term there?? XDDD my programming skills are getting rusty..

Anyway.. what i meant was

'Create' Does NOT Equal 'Copy'....
"When a petanko hugs you, she's hugging closer to her heart"...
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Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » April 21st, 2008, 9:29 am

inferno_flamex wrote:I still remember how they both activated Avalon's power AT THE SAME TIME.. But i dont think that gives enough grounds as to why he needed Saber's permission to activate it... I think of this scene as the EPIC climax, where both characters showed their 'trump card'... But it just so happens that their Trump are almost one of the same. Signifying the similarities of the 2 characteristics...

And that it happened at the same time... For a much better effect, just for the sake of story-telling... Showing the 2 lead characters defeating their counterparts at PRECISELY the EXACT moment...

Not to mention that it also enabled the 2 scenes where Shirou and Saber are 'reaching out' for Avalon... But with smart VN storytelling.. It looked as if both Shirou and Saber shared the same Avalon, and that their arms looked like as if they were reacthing towards EACH OTHER in this final moment of an all or nothing attack...
precisely. that's what I thought too ;)
to show their bond ( not only the master - servant bond, but also something deeper than that. be as it love, as I mean here eros - love between the boy and the girl, or something. :P )
inferno_flamex wrote:Also maybe Gram... I think that is the sword that brings only doom. Even towards its user... But if Shirou were to Project Gram, he has the ability to alter that curse it brings towards it's user... because if that's the way he wants it to be created, he could...
hmm, aren't you confusing balmung with dainsleif? :P
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

Inverted
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Unread post by Inverted » April 21st, 2008, 11:04 am

Dante Obscuri wrote:
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Ahhhh .. I get what you mean but my head is spinning.

Nasu should have just stuck to Excalibur being the sword in stone and Avalon being its Sheath .
It would have been much easier.
I can only think Nasu messed up somewhere , or he got too much into writing the story that he did an oversight.
What applies to Caliburn applies to Excalibur's Sheath but not to the sword itself ? ......................................
He should have made Excalibur also unusable by Shirou . Or made Avalon Caliburn's sheath 'transplanted' to Excalibur.

Though I'm not surprised it's difficult to assume Shirou using Avalon's true power. UBW + Avalon = Overpowered.
Especially considering unlike other Heroes he's just a puny human with no special blood or lineage..So EX rated phantasm should be difficult indeed if not impossible.

@Raitei : I get what you mean I thought so too.

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Unread post by inferno_flamex » April 21st, 2008, 12:06 pm

Raitei wrote:
inferno_flamex wrote:Also maybe Gram... I think that is the sword that brings only doom. Even towards its user... But if Shirou were to Project Gram, he has the ability to alter that curse it brings towards it's user... because if that's the way he wants it to be created, he could...
hmm, aren't you confusing balmung with dainsleif? :P
Ohh... hmm.. Yeah.. Looks like i have...
Sorry about that.. At the time of that post i was in school using the school comp. And well... As you know.. There is no FSN game in there for me to doublecheck my weapon knowledge... XDDD

Hontouni gomenasai ne?.
Inverted wrote:Nasu should have just stuck to Excalibur being the sword in stone and Avalon being its Sheath .
It would have been much easier.
Sigh.. I dont mean to be rude you know.. But... I COMPLETELY DISAGREE. FSN is a game based on heroic legends. And the legend of Arthur and his knights of the round table is by far my favourite since i was 8... Thus the insane love for Saber the moment she shouted EX-CALIBUR on that roof...

Ehem.. Anyway.. There is nothing more insulting to a legend in my oppinion, than to have the legend itself be altered... Or its key points be simply overlooked... Just so that it would suit the masses...

I am VERY VERY much behind Nasu on this one. It is already bad enough that people assumed that Arthur's greatest weapon is Excalibur... when according to legends...

~EVEN MERLIN!! Knocked some sense on Arthur and cursed him the ancient word for Dumbass... Just because Arthur preferred the blade Excalibur rather than the seath Avalon.. A sword kills to protect its user, but the seath protects both... And just like legends, FSN kept Avalon's power true...

The seath is indeed Arthur's greatest weapon. For it is the weapon that kept him INVINCIBLE. So long as he have that seath with him (its even tied to his wrist by some chains in the legends), he would shed no blood, would never suffer fatique, shall fall to no illness and never be pray to even powerful magic. The reason he finally was able to die, was because during an intense battle.. His chain connected to his wrist was shattered, and Avalon was lost.

That my friends is the true power of Arthur according to legends.
"When a petanko hugs you, she's hugging closer to her heart"...
~:~:~
"There is no greater love, between a boy and his pillow"
~:~:~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_FT_c3IiQ

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Unread post by Shirosaki » April 21st, 2008, 6:12 pm

imo just one thign to correct upon some weapons have permanent abilities that cannot be changed even if it is traced for example if shirou traced avalon, avalons effect of protection cannot be changed because it's basis of foundation is that ultimate protection, same with all other traces (look up type moon wiki, i'm to lazy atm) if shirou imagined them to be stronger than the oringinal then it does surpass it and he can use it to max potential so
I never said he couldn't trace it, what I'm saying is he cannot use their special abilities (i.e. He cannot activate them). He can trace Caliburn, and he can swing it, but he cannot use the move that killed Berserker, because he's not the chosen King. He can trace Fragarach, but he cannot use its special ability because he's not a member of the Fraga family, and doesn't have their blood. He can trace Avalon, but he cannot use its shutting ability (on his own), because he's not King Arthur.

Also, we do not know if Archer ever saw the scabbard.
is completely false, reread the entire vn or wiki it idc.

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Unread post by Einherjar » April 21st, 2008, 8:37 pm

I never said he couldn't trace it, what I'm saying is he cannot use their special abilities (i.e. He cannot activate them). He can trace Caliburn, and he can swing it, but he cannot use the move that killed Berserker, because he's not the chosen King. He can trace Fragarach, but he cannot use its special ability because he's not a member of the Fraga family, and doesn't have their blood. He can trace Avalon, but he cannot use its shutting ability (on his own), because he's not King Arthur.

Also, we do not know if Archer ever saw the scabbard.
Geez if you really think that Saber and Shirou stabbing a Berserker a special ability, you should reconsider. If any reason why he can't kill Berserker, it's because he's too weak.

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Unread post by Dante Obscuri » April 21st, 2008, 10:05 pm

*sigh*

I give up.

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Unread post by Shikiller » April 22nd, 2008, 2:01 am

Wow a lot of confused people.

first: Shirou can never ever trace something better than the original, anything traced by him loses his ranking by 1, as said in game.

second: There are weapons with skills that only its owner can activate. Quotes from Arai, Fuyuki wiki creator:

"Avalon is a place where only the king can go. The sheath is a cristallization of that, anyone couldn't possibly activate it other than Saber. It would ruin the point of Avalon being an unreachable place if... everybody could reach it."

"Normally, the weapons that have no sort of bloodline restriction or owner identification (like Fragarach, Caliburn) can be swung by anyone,but their true power is restricted to their owners (provided they can swing it and blast a huge beam of prana, of course)"

third: About the Archer CG thing...
the EMIYA in the throne of heroes has the knowledge and memories of all the posibles Shirous,but when summoned as a servant, only one of those possibles Shirous is summoned, notice that the particular Emiya Shirou summoned by Rin does not know about Rule Breaker or the Zelretch sword.
another quote:
"The Grail picks only one version of "Emiya", so this one can't access the memories of the others. The Emiya at the Throne is the sum of all possible Emiyas, not the one that was summoned. This one was a specific one"

i hope everything is clear now,specially about the weapons skills.

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » April 22nd, 2008, 5:58 am

first: Shirou can never ever trace something better than the original, anything traced by him loses his ranking by 1, as said in game.
that's what I thought too; I was quite surprised at the statement "everything that shirou traces holds power that's equivalent to his imagination".
"Normally, the weapons that have no sort of bloodline restriction or owner identification (like Fragarach, Caliburn) can be swung by anyone,but their true power is restricted to their owners (provided they can swing it and blast a huge beam of prana, of course)"
tell me, does that apply to gae bolg and the likes? because if that does... you know what I mean. same goes for avalon.

to be more specific : shirou. the greatest faker in the world.
"The Grail picks only one version of "Emiya", so this one can't access the memories of the others. The Emiya at the Throne is the sum of all possible Emiyas, not the one that was summoned. This one was a specific one".
hmm. yes, so random archer is summoned from the grail. we know not if the summoned archer ever saw of avalon or not.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

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Unread post by Dante Obscuri » April 22nd, 2008, 7:32 am

Thanks Shikiller ;______________;
Raitei wrote:tell me, does that apply to gae bolg and the likes? because if that does... you know what I mean. same goes for avalon.
No, Gae Bolg doesn't have any restriction. Among the weapons we've seen, very few have restrictions.
Raitei wrote:to be more specific : shirou. the greatest faker in the world.
Yes, but that doesn't translate was OMFG OVER 9000!!!!!
hmm. yes, so random archer is summoned from the grail. we know not if the summoned archer ever saw of avalon or not.
Even if he saw it, it is useless since he doesn't have a contract with Saber.

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Unread post by Raitei » April 22nd, 2008, 7:38 am

Dante Obscuri wrote:No, Gae Bolg doesn't have any restriction. Among the weapons we've seen, very few have restrictions.
so, you're saying that everyone can use "spear of impaling barbed death" and "spear of striking death flight" even if he's not cu chulainn? heh. if so, why there are noble phantasms from the start?
Dante Obscuri wrote:Yes, but that doesn't translate was OMFG OVER 9000!!!!!
as I said before, if there are no "such restrictions", he can create and use any weapons by which he understands the basic concepts.
Dante Obscuri wrote:Even if he saw it, it is useless since he doesn't have a contract with Saber.
read my line above.

if you're unable to get my point, here is : shirou is an exception of all humans/magi.
oh, just a joke for #1 :P
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"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

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Unread post by Dante Obscuri » April 22nd, 2008, 8:39 am

Raitei wrote:so, you're saying that everyone can use "spear of impaling barbed death" and "spear of striking death flight" even if he's not cu chulainn? heh. if so, why there are noble phantasms from the start?
No, only Cu Chulainn can. Why? Because he's that weapon's true master. The thing is that a certain red head can use it too.

See, Noble Phantasms have masters, and only their masters can activate them. However, there are some Noble Phantasm with additional requirements, like for example, being the one who pulled it from a rock, or having the blood of the Fraga family coursing through your veins. Shirō can bypass the first requirement, but not the additional ones.
Raitei wrote:as I said before, if there are no "such restrictions", he can create and use any weapons by which he understands the basic concepts.
Raitei wrote:
Inverted wrote:
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shirou can still use those swords' full power even he's not the king. :P
Raitei wrote:if you're unable to get my point, here is : shirou is an exception of all humans/magi.
oh, just a joke for #1 :P
*bashes his head against his desk*

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Unread post by Raitei » April 22nd, 2008, 8:51 am

Dante Obscuri wrote:
Raitei wrote:so, you're saying that everyone can use "spear of impaling barbed death" and "spear of striking death flight" even if he's not cu chulainn? heh. if so, why there are noble phantasms from the start?
No, only Cu Chulainn can. Why? Because he's that weapon's true master. The thing is that a certain red head can use it too.

See, Noble Phantasms have masters, and only their masters can activate them. However, there are some Noble Phantasm with additional requirements, like for example, being the one who pulled it from a rock, or having the blood of the Fraga family coursing through your veins. Shiro can bypass the first requirement, but not the additional ones.
any official sources? and not to mention this again : shirou can use excalibur ( along with its true power; the beam, the blast, everything. ). how do you explain that, then, when only arturia is supposed to be the rightful owner of the weapon? official sources, if you please.

and here are some examples you might be interested to hear of : archer can use kansho and bakuya. caladbolg. hrunting. and shirou can use nine lives. each of those weapons has its respective owner, yet shirou / archer is able to unleash their full potential.

moreover, putting those aside, weapons like fragarach and caliburn have "no master identification", as shikiller had quoted. that'll make someone such as shirou easier to copy and use it at its full potential, logically speaking.

remember that a sword copy pasta + use != swinging the sword blindly. there might be some alteration done in the process, making the weapon become "available" to the "faker".
Last edited by Raitei on April 22nd, 2008, 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

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Unread post by Enigma » April 22nd, 2008, 9:33 am

I don't think Archer utilizes the full potential of Caladbolg, a sword, which he modifies and fires as an arrow.

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Unread post by Raitei » April 22nd, 2008, 11:06 am

Emiya Shirou can evaluate the idea behind the creation, determine the foundation, reproduce the base material, copy the manufacture, assimilate the experience, reproduce the age; unlike a normal person who does the recreation from the base idea, he will include in the blueprint the material property, the nature and the history of the item.

With a normal usage of Gradation Air, it is possible to perform a "reinforcement" of an existing object that imitates a "projection", but to Emiya Shirou and the heroic spirit Emiya, it is impossible to compensate with a reinforcement if the image isn't created from A to Z by his Reality Marble.

Gradation Air is also referred to as Tracing or Imaging in Shirou's case, due to how he says "Trace, on" and mentions the creation of an "image" (both terms in English in the text) when using (his Reality Marble version of) this skill.

Source: based on the Fate/Side Material encyclopedia entry (p.67)
from type-moon wiki. it's clear that shirou is able provide all the information (let me say in this case, "passcode") needed to grant him the "permission" to use the weapon's true power. even the experiences of the weapons can be reproduced precisely.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

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