Questions I came across while playing (Fate spoilers)

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Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » May 20th, 2008, 4:13 am

skullreken wrote:Your right in every respect except where the phantasm comes from
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no. he's right.
TYPE-MOON Wiki wrote:Nine Lives is the most trusted Noble Phantasm of the Heroic Spirit Hercules. It is the bow and arrows used to exterminate the hydra and its nine heads that would grow back no matter how many times you would cut them down; he later ports that attack to be able to use it with weapons such as a giant sword.

Hercules could make a splendid use of that attack if his class was Saber. That secret skill was used with the projected axe-sword to kill the blackened Berserker.

Source: Fate/Side Material encyclopedia entry (p.68)

Nine Lives is a skill that can adapt itself depending on the circumstance and target, and look different; that makes it an all-purpose Noble Phantasm, so much that you could call it a whole style on its own.

What Shirou uses is an anti-unit version of the "Shooting Hundred Heads" - a pumelling, high-speed series of 9 strikes. As a side-note, the main version of Hercules is an anti-phantasmal beast, simultaneously discharging 9 dragon-like homing lasers.
but note this : you are not wrong either.
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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chasmirror
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Unread post by chasmirror » May 20th, 2008, 4:38 am

Einherjar wrote:Then I'll make this stupidly clear:
Where does the sword memory come from??? Definitely not the blacksmith. Shirou's tracing is more than plain tracing, it record the history of it, meaning all the memories up until this point. SWORD's memory COMES FROM USER's memory. If you still don't get what we (me, brizzle, raitei) have been trying to say all this time, then I give up.
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You are making the same mistake made by many here. This is a fantasy world, not a real world! The sword actually doesn't carry a brain where it stores memories that can be scanned by machines, but Shiro is doing so by MAGIC. He reads the history, legends, and stories associated with the weapon, and EXPERIENCED by it. Don't ask me how he can, unless you can explain to me how he can "project" a sword into a real physical being. This is a fantasy setting, nothing more.

On top of that, what you are saying definitely goes against what Shiro had narrated in the game. He has said he is only the "owner," and not the "true user" of the weapon. He has said that he is not an expert of those weapons like other Servants, so Gil is the only Servant whom he can beat. If he could learn the weapon like you said, then he should be able to turn into the master of the weapon overnight, but he can't.
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skullreken
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Unread post by skullreken » May 20th, 2008, 12:30 pm

Raitei wrote:
skullreken wrote:Your right in every respect except where the phantasm comes from
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no. he's right.
TYPE-MOON Wiki wrote:Nine Lives is the most trusted Noble Phantasm of the Heroic Spirit Hercules. It is the bow and arrows used to exterminate the hydra and its nine heads that would grow back no matter how many times you would cut them down; he later ports that attack to be able to use it with weapons such as a giant sword.

Hercules could make a splendid use of that attack if his class was Saber. That secret skill was used with the projected axe-sword to kill the blackened Berserker.

Source: Fate/Side Material encyclopedia entry (p.68)

Nine Lives is a skill that can adapt itself depending on the circumstance and target, and look different; that makes it an all-purpose Noble Phantasm, so much that you could call it a whole style on its own.

What Shirou uses is an anti-unit version of the "Shooting Hundred Heads" - a pumelling, high-speed series of 9 strikes. As a side-note, the main version of Hercules is an anti-phantasmal beast, simultaneously discharging 9 dragon-like homing lasers.
but note this : you are not wrong either.
My Bad sorry Einherjar
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Einherjar
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Unread post by Einherjar » May 20th, 2008, 2:24 pm

Your misunderstood people.
Brizzle wrote: Of course Shiro couldn't beat Saber with Caliburn or Excalibur. Caliburn won't work well for him because he is not the king, and even at full capacity, Shiro has nowhere near the capacity that she does (she is descended from dragons, after all).
That might explain something.

I didn't say it carries a brain, but:
fuyuki wiki wrote: Recreating the weapon as if it had a life of its own, in a sense.
I'm definitely not saying it's a real world. All this time you should at least realize what I'm trying to prove. I agree with you on almost everything, up until the momory part.

And I'm not saying he is the "true user", he is just able to use the weapon basing on the memory, not his own skills. I think you're misunderstood true user since it's about whether you can use a weapon at max potential.
I have no idea where do you get the idea that he practiced with taiga, since he is far below taiga, which is far below Saber.
If you're saying Nine Lives is learn because it's a NP, then I guess you would say he can trace 12 trials??? And if you consider that's the case, remember that Shirou
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Stop misunderstanding people. I won't ask you to see my opinion anymore so let's drop this already.

chasmirror
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Unread post by chasmirror » May 20th, 2008, 7:21 pm

Einherjar wrote:
fuyuki wiki wrote: Recreating the weapon as if it had a life of its own, in a sense.
I'm definitely not saying it's a real world. All this time you should at least realize what I'm trying to prove. I agree with you on almost everything, up until the momory part.

And I'm not saying he is the "true user", he is just able to use the weapon basing on the memory, not his own skills. I think you're misunderstood true user since it's about whether you can use a weapon at max potential.
I have no idea where do you get the idea that he practiced with taiga, since he is far below taiga, which is far below Saber.
If you're saying Nine Lives is learn because it's a NP, then I guess you would say he can trace 12 trials??? And if you consider that's the case, remember that Shirou
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Stop misunderstanding people. I won't ask you to see my opinion anymore so let's drop this already.
Oopsie. Looks like I did misunderstand. I did mean the True User as someone who can use the weapon at max potential, but looks like I got some of your points mixed up......
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Einherjar
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Unread post by Einherjar » May 20th, 2008, 9:28 pm

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chasmirror
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Unread post by chasmirror » May 21st, 2008, 12:46 am

Einherjar wrote:
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Sorry, but I don't quite understand this part.
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Einherjar wrote: Shirou cannot use some weapons at max potential due to factors such as him not being the king.

It seems that you agree that Nine Lives is learned from the ax-sword, which is learned from the user (since the ax-sword without hercules memories is just a piece of rock). And it's not just a memory of sight, but all of Hercules' sense, including muscle memory since it's impossible to learn that by looking, like you said with that basketball example. Then it would feel automatically, and all you're doing is follow that motion. If this skill gets carried over, don't you think the memories every single swing by Kanshou and Bakuya should get carried over too?
Shirou wrote: It is fortunate that I also reproduced its memory when I reproduced the sword. A sword with long past holds will and experience. The sword must already be familiar with such attacks. I can't judge Gilgamesh's attacks, but this sword is able to. So the sword reacts to the attacks before my hands do. I swing to follow the sword, and as a result, I can block his attacks.
My evidence it's muscle memory.


Anyways, in Black Saber vs. Shirou of HF:
TM wiki wrote: A skill I can't think up of, a stance he would take on the verge of death, it definitely exists.
He loved this weapon.
There just can't not be a "ultimate killing move" he made up when he went through so many battles?!
Clearly, it means that this is a skill that Archer invented, which is probably passed on to Shirou through tracing.

I hope I cleared up a little.
[/spoil]
I am not saying Shiro cannot learn skills and techniques from the swords. I am saying that learning the skills and techniques won't make him an expert in the weapon as the actual hero who yielded it.

Let's say there is a sort of a futuristic fighter plane. All the flight datas are recorded in its computer, and on top of the missiles and firearms put on during its manufacturing, its designated pilot added more arms and machine to make it more powerful. If someone other than the designated pilot got on the plane, they wouldn't know how to pilot it or shoot a weapon since they don't know the layout of the panels and stuffs. Even if they get the plane up in the air, they won't be able to maneuver it as well as the designated pilot who had gotten on it over thousands of hours. This is because, among other things, they cannot access the plane's computer without access code.

However, Shiro can somehow make an exact copy of the plane, that has all its arms and data on it, and he knows its access code by simply making it. Then he can pilot the plane, do the maneuver previously performed by the orginal's pilot, and use all its weapon attached on it. Sounds like a cheat, but that is kind of what his magic is.

Then can Shiro really beat the original and its pilot with his copy? He can use the maneuvers already done by the pilot, but he cannot learn what the pilot has kept in his head. He cannot create maneuvers with his copy because he has not put in the hours that the original's pilot has. The ability to make the copy gives Shiro to copy the plane and its data, but not the pilot's experience because it is within the pilot himself. The original and its pilot would still wipe the floor with Shiro and his copy. So Shiro can pilot the plane better than a newbie, but against the original, he will still fail miserably.

This is what I am trying to say. The Noble Phantasm has its abilities and techniques that is learned within it, but it cannot make Shiro an instant expert. Shiro, having learnt its structure and history, will be better than others with it, but he will never be as good as the original Heroic Spirit who had owned and mastered it.
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Unread post by Einherjar » May 21st, 2008, 6:19 pm

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chasmirror
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Unread post by chasmirror » May 22nd, 2008, 12:25 am

First of all, Shiro's copies are exactly like the originals on which they are based. It only loses a rank in mythicism, but retains all the power and abilities of the original. So technically Shiro can face any enemy with the same weapon as his or hers. So his defeat by the Heroic Spirits with the original weapons won't be because they have better weapon. The mythicism rank matters, yes, but regarding the potential firepower, Shiro will be on the same ground as his opponent.

Now, I am not saying Shiro cannot develop a new move or a technique. But he will have to make it by the old method of training hard. Shiro won't be an instant master by just tracing the swords.

You seem to think that when Shiro traces a blade, it transfers Shiro all the memories from the previous owners, thus giving him the necessary experience to be its True User. That is not quite true. What the blades give him is "an account" of all the experiences as an WITNESS. The Heroic Spirit who yielded the weapon is the one who swings it, fights the battle, and gets the experience for it. The Noble Phantasm will have its own experience of the time, but it won't be quite as same as the user's experience. The sword can GUIDE Shiro for some moves, but it won't be able to make him as good as the Heroic Spirits who had yielded it, even if Shiro has all the necessary physical specs(which he doesn't, by the way).

Imagine an actual battle. A general studies the battlefield and gives orders to his lieutenants on the fields to draw an overall victory. Can one of those lieutenants then fall into a similar situation and guarantee a victory? Not quite, because he only experienced his part of the specific battle. While the general must have contemplated many possibilities and opportunities to come up with one solution, the lieutenant knows only that one solution at most. Both are wiser after the battle, but one is more so than the other.

The traced swords are like the lieutenants. In some specific situation, it can guide Shiro to move as needed(which was the case in some of the Fate scenes). But the main has to be Shiro, not the swords, in order to gain the whole victory. Its recorded history can tell Shiro what the sword is capable of, but nothing more. It can tell him what the user had accomplished with the sword, but that would be it.

You mentioned Tsubame Gaeshi, and that is the perfect example. Assassin could perform Tsubame Gaeshi, and this would be included in the history of his sword Monohoshi Zao. But Shiro cannot execute Tsubame Gaeshi by tracing the sword, because Shiro is not the master of swordplay like Assassin was. Even though Assassin did the move with Monohoshi Zao, the sword did not become "the Sword that can perform Tsubame Gaeshi." Had it become exactly that, Shiro WOULD have been able to do copy the move after tracing Monohoshi Zao. However, Tsubame Gaeshi is "a move performed by Sasaki Kojiro," not "an attack made possible by Monohoshi Zao." So even if both Assassin and Shiro were to have Monohoshi Zao, only Assassin can perform the attack with it.

Nines Lives are a bit different. It is originally "an attack that Hercules did with his bow", but Hercules, being who he is, managed to adapt the move into his other weapons, too(which is Nasu-only setting). Therefore, Shiro, after tracing Berserker's stone Axe-Club, AND Archer's arm to perform it with, could replicate the move against the Dark Berserker.

Not to confuse the issue, but let's say you are playing a fighting game, such as Tekken 4. A beginner would know what buttons to push to punch, kick, and throw. An intermediate player would know all the character's moves by heart. An expert would know all the combo attacks, and even had made some new moves himself. All the Heroic Spirits are the expert players, where as Shiro would be an intermediate. As soon as they start playing their personal character, they will fully be aware what they can do with it because they literally lived their whole lives with it. In case of Shiro, as soon as he choose a character, he will know all its abilities and attacks immediately, and maybe some basic combo attacks taught in the tutorial mode, but that is it. Perhaps he would be able to further his skill later with more practice, but at the battle, he would have to fight with what he knows at the time.

In summary, Shiro gains some battle experience told by the weapon's history when he traces it, but he does not earn the same quality and amount of experience the Heroic Spirit had earned by training before the battle, fighting in the battle, and training AGAIN after the battle. That is what seperates an owner like Shiro, and the True User like the Heroic Spirits.

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Unread post by skullreken » May 22nd, 2008, 12:27 am

this is still going on?
I remember on another forum someone compared arguing online to the special olympics.........
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Unread post by Einherjar » May 22nd, 2008, 12:46 pm

You know what, some of your points completely ignores mine, and I've been repeating my points and quote over and over. I'm tired of this. Why is the sword guiding Shirou? Because all the memory are implemented to him so it's as natural as walking. You just brushed off my (and Raitei's) fate evidence by just saying "in some fate parts" and Almost completely ignore the fact that Kanshou and Bakuya are NPs that does not come with the killing move Archer made up and Shirou is able to use it, or my muscle memory comments. I'm sick of it. Your examples are ridiculus and doesn't relate to the case well at all. No matter how much I repeat, you don't listen. You just come up with another idea/example that is either contraversal to an evidence I have, or a comment of your own. I give up. You win.

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Unread post by Brizzle » May 22nd, 2008, 1:45 pm

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GAR for Shiro

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » May 22nd, 2008, 2:37 pm

Brizzle wrote:
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yo Brizzle, I won't say anything since we're on the same side here, but that picture gives me the creeps. :lol:
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

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Unread post by Einherjar » May 22nd, 2008, 3:13 pm

Brizzle wrote:
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I can never outdone you at.

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Unread post by skullreken » May 22nd, 2008, 9:22 pm

Raitei wrote:
Brizzle wrote:
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yo Brizzle, I won't say anything since we're on the same side here, but that picture gives me the creeps. :lol:
I agree with you it is creepy because its a true reflection we've all gotten into that situation
Once I spent 6 hours arguing with what was effectively an Asian Nazi
he was part of a group of anime freaks that show up on forums from time to time
they use anime as a way to profess that everthing eastern especially Japanese is superior to everything western
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Unread post by chasmirror » May 22nd, 2008, 9:35 pm

Einherjar wrote:You know what, some of your points completely ignores mine, and I've been repeating my points and quote over and over. I'm tired of this. Why is the sword guiding Shirou? Because all the memory are implemented to him so it's as natural as walking. You just brushed off my (and Raitei's) fate evidence by just saying "in some fate parts" and Almost completely ignore the fact that Kanshou and Bakuya are NPs that does not come with the killing move Archer made up and Shirou is able to use it, or my muscle memory comments. I'm sick of it. Your examples are ridiculus and doesn't relate to the case well at all. No matter how much I repeat, you don't listen. You just come up with another idea/example that is either contraversal to an evidence I have, or a comment of your own. I give up. You win.
I don't want to be one to start it again, but what??

Of course some of my points don't agree with yours. That is what I am arguing about! I agree with some of your points, and I don't agree with others. If not, why would I even say anything?

On top of that, I've said over and over that I DO agree with you that Shiro can use the moves within the NPs. I was saying that just doesn't make him the master of the weapon, which is EXACTLY my point, not to mention that was stated by Shiro himself in the UBW route.

None of the examples you have showed didn't even say that Shiro gets the total expertise from his traced weapon's memory, but you tell it like it does, and now my examples are ridiculous? You insist that Shiro gets muscle memory by projecting the swords, a point that is absolutely NOT supported(nor disproved, I must admit) by the game, and act like I am the one who is misquoting it.

It is one thing to disagree with my opinion, and a whole another thing to mock me for not agreeing with you.

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Unread post by chasmirror » May 22nd, 2008, 9:48 pm

Einherjar wrote:You know what, some of your points completely ignores mine, and I've been repeating my points and quote over and over. I'm tired of this. Why is the sword guiding Shirou? Because all the memory are implemented to him so it's as natural as walking. You just brushed off my (and Raitei's) fate evidence by just saying "in some fate parts" and Almost completely ignore the fact that Kanshou and Bakuya are NPs that does not come with the killing move Archer made up and Shirou is able to use it, or my muscle memory comments. I'm sick of it. Your examples are ridiculus and doesn't relate to the case well at all. No matter how much I repeat, you don't listen. You just come up with another idea/example that is either contraversal to an evidence I have, or a comment of your own. I give up. You win.
As for the above part;
Raitei wrote:
Emiya Shirou wrote:It is fortunate that I also reproduced its memory when I reproduced the sword. A sword with long past holds will and experience. The sword must already be familiar with such attacks. I can't judge Gilgamesh's attacks, but this sword is able to. So the sword reacts to the attacks before my hands do. I swing to follow the sword, and as a result, I can block his attacks.
Fate -Day 14 - VS Gilgamesh, What I want to protect.

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