Questions I came across while playing (Fate spoilers)

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Einherjar
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Unread post by Einherjar » April 22nd, 2008, 11:50 am

But he's just too weak and slow too make full use them most of the time -_-
HF Shirou is an exception of course.
And Caladbolg is not in full potential since it was traced, so it's weaker. The modifying part just made it even more questionable.

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Unread post by inferno_flamex » April 22nd, 2008, 12:48 pm

Einherjar wrote:But he's just too weak and slow too make full use them most of the time -_-
HF Shirou is an exception of course.
And Caladbolg is not in full potential since it was traced, so it's weaker. The modifying part just made it even more questionable.
Who really cares if he's too weak... Give em some sexual harem power and he would have mana capabilities needed to perform those :lol: .. The main point of arguement is that he can activate powers of NPs but only through his weaker projections... No restrictions...


I kinda understand what Dante is saying... YES i agree has NO RIGHT to use Avalon or its power, as it is a symbol of a king. And he is not...

But that restriction does not apply to the ones he projected...


Its like this...

Imagine the Royal Crown of the Queen of England! Big whoop... One must be the queen to wear it... So... Only the QUEEN of ENGLAND can wear it yes? Yes??...

Anyway.. Enter SHIROU! The greatest faker in the world, possibly the only one of his kind... Finds interest in the crown.. I donnno.. Maybe he thinks its fancyful.

So he projected a FAKE crown for himself... Now... What is there to stop him from wearing a crown that is meant for her majesty the queen?? Nothing... Its a fake... He created a fake, knowing its a fake...

There is nothing to stop him from wearing that crown and walk around McDonalds like an idiot... The crown that can only be used by a Queen, is now used by Shirou.. Granted that his projection is a fake. But of course it has to be a fake if he's able to wear it...

Shirou could NEVER EVER not EVER wear the REAL crown jewels of england.... Never... No matter how hard he begged i bet... But who is to say that he could'nt wear a FAKE one? Yeah.. Hmm.. Maybe the English Authorities... (Think the magic association in this case)...

Sure.. He'd be chased as one who has created a blasphemy, he was able to only use that FAKE crown only once.. But the main point is...

~~He had WORN THE CROWN, SOMETHING THAT HE COULD NEVER WEAR BEFORE... (THROUGH PROJECTION)...
~~He had ACTIVATE AVALON, SOMETHING THAT HE COULD NEVER ACTIVATE BEFORE... (THROUGH PROJECTION)...
Example...
What Shirou could possibily see when he TRACED the REAL Avalon:
► Show Spoiler
What Shirou could possibily DO abot it when he PROJECTED the FAKE Avalon:
► Show Spoiler

And since we're on the subject of projection of fakes...

What is there to say about Shirou not being able to project... YES.. you heard me... PROJECT the powers of Avalon... No no no.. Im not saying he ACTIVATE it.. Im saying he TRACED it when Saber first used it.. Then PROJECTED it, the powers itself, during his final fight.
Something similar as to how he was able to trace archer's style of fighting and use it for himself...

Have any of us think of it in this way perhaps?
"When a petanko hugs you, she's hugging closer to her heart"...
~:~:~
"There is no greater love, between a boy and his pillow"
~:~:~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_FT_c3IiQ

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Unread post by Mukuro » April 22nd, 2008, 1:27 pm

What Shirou could possibily see when he TRACED the REAL Avalon:




What Shirou could possibily DO abot it when he PROJECTED the FAKE Avalon:





And since we're on the subject of projection of fakes...

What is there to say about Shirou not being able to project... YES.. you heard me... PROJECT the powers of Avalon... No no no.. Im not saying he ACTIVATE it.. Im saying he TRACED it when Saber first used it.. Then PROJECTED it, the powers itself, during his final fight.
Something similar as to how he was able to trace archer's style of fighting and use it for himself...

Have any of us think of it in this way perhaps?
Emiya Shirou can evaluate the idea behind the creation, determine the foundation, reproduce the base material, copy the manufacture, assimilate the experience, reproduce the age; unlike a normal person who does the recreation from the base idea, he will include in the blueprint the material property, the nature and the history of the item.
That's your answer, a complete copy. He CANNOT alter what the item has been through. So the restriction, power, experience, etc are a copied as a set, he cannot purposely change the restriction or any attribute of said item in any way he wishes. He can only copy that item and use it like it's own owner would, NOT change it. That is why he is called a faker.

Also, he didn't trace Archer's fighting style, well, not directly anyway...He saw Archer fight, is fascinated by it, then traced Kanshou and Bakuya and learn Archer's fighting style cause that's the most suited style for Emiya Shirou. Then there is something about Archer's presence helping Emiya Shirou learning or something?

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Unread post by Raitei » April 22nd, 2008, 1:36 pm

inferno_flamex wrote:Its like this...

Imagine the Royal Crown of the Queen of England! Big whoop... One must be the queen to wear it... So... Only the QUEEN of ENGLAND can wear it yes? Yes??...

Anyway.. Enter SHIROU! The greatest faker in the world, possibly the only one of his kind... Finds interest in the crown.. I donnno.. Maybe he thinks its fancyful.

So he projected a FAKE crown for himself... Now... What is there to stop him from wearing a crown that is meant for her majesty the queen?? Nothing... Its a fake... He created a fake, knowing its a fake...

There is nothing to stop him from wearing that crown and walk around McDonalds like an idiot... The crown that can only be used by a Queen, is now used by Shirou.. Granted that his projection is a fake. But of course it has to be a fake if he's able to wear it...

Shirou could NEVER EVER not EVER wear the REAL crown jewels of england.... Never... No matter how hard he begged i bet... But who is to say that he could'nt wear a FAKE one? Yeah.. Hmm.. Maybe the English Authorities... (Think the magic association in this case)...

Sure.. He'd be chased as one who has created a blasphemy, he was able to only use that FAKE crown only once.. But the main point is...

~~He had WORN THE CROWN, SOMETHING THAT HE COULD NEVER WEAR BEFORE... (THROUGH PROJECTION)...
~~He had ACTIVATE AVALON, SOMETHING THAT HE COULD NEVER ACTIVATE BEFORE... (THROUGH PROJECTION)...
Example...
What Shirou could possibily see when he TRACED the REAL Avalon:
► Show Spoiler
What Shirou could possibily DO abot it when he PROJECTED the FAKE Avalon:
► Show Spoiler

And since we're on the subject of projection of fakes...

What is there to say about Shirou not being able to project... YES.. you heard me... PROJECT the powers of Avalon... No no no.. Im not saying he ACTIVATE it.. Im saying he TRACED it when Saber first used it.. Then PROJECTED it, the powers itself, during his final fight.
Something similar as to how he was able to trace archer's style of fighting and use it for himself...

Have any of us think of it in this way perhaps?
that's exactly what I thought. thanks for pointing that out ;)
Mukuro wrote:That's your answer, a complete copy. He CANNOT alter what the item has been through. So the restriction, power, experience, etc are a copied as a set, he cannot purposely change the restriction or any attribute of said item in any way he wishes. He can only copy that item and use it like it's own owner would, NOT change it.
orly? take a look at caladbolg II. that's your answer. ;)
I'm guessing that he could alter it the way he want; the way he sees it most effective.
Mukuro wrote:Then there is something about Archer's presence helping Emiya Shirou learning or something?
everything about archer helps shirou in every path. be as it in fate, ubw, and hf. it has everything to do about archer. :)
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

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Unread post by Inverted » April 22nd, 2008, 2:13 pm

inferno_flamex wrote:Sigh.. I dont mean to be rude you know.. But... I COMPLETELY DISAGREE. FSN is a game based on heroic legends. And the legend of Arthur and his knights of the round table is by far my favourite since i was 8... Thus the insane love for Saber the moment she shouted EX-CALIBUR on that roof...
Not trying to step on any toes or anything in some Vulgate accounts they are one and the same . In post-vulgate accounts they are separated into 2. That was the only assumption I was operating on nothing else.

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Unread post by inferno_flamex » April 22nd, 2008, 5:56 pm

Mukuro wrote: That's your answer, a complete copy. He CANNOT alter what the item has been through. So the restriction, power, experience, etc are a copied as a set, he cannot purposely change the restriction or any attribute of said item in any way he wishes. He can only copy that item and use it like it's own owner would, NOT change it. That is why he is called a faker.

Also, he didn't trace Archer's fighting style, well, not directly anyway...He saw Archer fight, is fascinated by it, then traced Kanshou and Bakuya and learn Archer's fighting style cause that's the most suited style for Emiya Shirou. Then there is something about Archer's presence helping Emiya Shirou learning or something?
My my.. Do u know that you are contradicting yourself??

A person who does a complete copy is NOT a faker... siish...

How can you do a COMPLETE COPY.. And YET! Be called FAKE!??
A complete copy meaning.. EVERYTHING IS THE SAME...

Complete = 100% (Everything)
Copy = Replica with no change.

If Shirou did a complete copy, he would be.. a REPLICATOR/DUPLICATOR... Not Faker...

A faker, in general terms, uses underhanded approach to create items that... At first glance looks real, but because the process of making those items are underhanded. Maybe different leather qualities, the difference in colour shadings. Cheaper materials... etc... Quality would most likely suffer...

Meaning, no matter how, even if he want to... His excalibur/avalon/etc will never be PERFECTLY created. No matter how perfect his Tracing ability is, and tries to duplicate the conditions ... The fact that the TIME and SPACE it was projected was already different from the original, the projected weapon is already destined to be a fake, and NOT a real COPY.

And one thing i dont really like about FSN is the terms used to describe things...

It was said that Shirou used 'Tracing' to understand the workings and schemetics of items/anything..
But the word TRACE, itself means 'to copy exactly'.

Now to say that Shirou actually even 'Traced' anything is actually wrong i think... Now wait till im finished before trying to prove me wrong!

Remember during the start of Fate? Shirou fixed that heater thing in the student council room or something for that Ryuudou temple guy. This was his first explanation of his 'Tracing' ability...

He explained, according to my memory... That he was able to see the workings of the item, how it was connected, where was it connected to, what was its key item. Basically.. What it means is that he can see BLUEPRINTS!! And a very KEY factor is that he UNDERSTOOD them... No no.. NOT the blueprints.. Its basically the instinct to know, which part of the heater was actually broken, and which was not... After a mental image of that thing working, from parts to parts, inside his head... Remember?

If it was my way... I'd rename the 'Tracing' ability to 'Scanning'... Because that is what the ability actually allowed him to do. To receive INFORMATION about something, and not BLINDLY COPYING... But 'Scanning' just doesnt sound as cool as 'Tracing'... Wouldnt it?

Im gonna forgive Nasu's lack of english skills on this one... Just like i forgave him for putting "BONE of my Sword"... I mean come on.. Swords have no bones... If anything the word bane would sound more realistic.
► Show Spoiler
"When a petanko hugs you, she's hugging closer to her heart"...
~:~:~
"There is no greater love, between a boy and his pillow"
~:~:~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_FT_c3IiQ

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Unread post by AlinSabel » April 22nd, 2008, 9:16 pm

Or maybe he was going for morbid and poetic. Bones provide the support and structure of vertebrates, so maybe he wanted to say they provided that for their swords. :P

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Unread post by Einherjar » April 23rd, 2008, 12:37 am

Raitei wrote:
Mukuro wrote:That's your answer, a complete copy. He CANNOT alter what the item has been through. So the restriction, power, experience, etc are a copied as a set, he cannot purposely change the restriction or any attribute of said item in any way he wishes. He can only copy that item and use it like it's own owner would, NOT change it.
orly? take a look at caladbolg II. that's your answer. ;)
I'm guessing that he could alter it the way he want; the way he sees it most effective.
Mukuro wrote:Then there is something about Archer's presence helping Emiya Shirou learning or something?
everything about archer helps shirou in every path. be as it in fate, ubw, and hf. it has everything to do about archer. :)
I did agree with Mukuro's opinion although I must admit that Archer did modify Caladbolg (Although in jap it should say something like fake caladbolg, oh well) and read that off somewhere I don't remember. I wish Kansho would say something.

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Unread post by Kansho » April 23rd, 2008, 12:53 am

私の中心は狂気にねじれる。
螺線形の擬似剣

My core is twisted by insanity.
Fake Spiral Sword


Furigana:

I am the bone of my sword.
Caladbolg

What we know is that "Archer has applied improvements particular to his usage as a arrow". We didn't know if if this look is due to Archer's modifications or not, but he modded it. That's the whole point of call the sword/arrow "Caladbolg II".
Last edited by Kansho on April 23rd, 2008, 1:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by Einherjar » April 23rd, 2008, 12:58 am

That's not what I wanted to ask X_X
Archer can modify Caladbolg, so I guess he and Shirou can really change NPs, but still, I don't think they can really change an NP (well except modifying the shape a bit, which is then again, a huge change).

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Unread post by Kansho » April 23rd, 2008, 12:59 am

I think that the answer is there.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by inferno_flamex » April 23rd, 2008, 1:18 am

Einherjar wrote:That's not what I wanted to ask X_X
Archer can modify Caladbolg, so I guess he and Shirou can really change NPs, but still, I don't think they can really change an NP (well except modifying the shape a bit, which is then again, a huge change).
I think that. at least for Shirou...

Changing the insides is easier for him than outward change...
Remember that he did reenforce that poster thing and a wooden.. Wood...

That was one of his first few... Projection/Reinforcement.
"When a petanko hugs you, she's hugging closer to her heart"...
~:~:~
"There is no greater love, between a boy and his pillow"
~:~:~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_FT_c3IiQ

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Unread post by Einherjar » April 23rd, 2008, 1:21 am

inferno_flamex wrote:
Einherjar wrote:That's not what I wanted to ask X_X
Archer can modify Caladbolg, so I guess he and Shirou can really change NPs, but still, I don't think they can really change an NP (well except modifying the shape a bit, which is then again, a huge change).
I think that. at least for Shirou...

Changing the insides is easier for him than outward change...
Remember that he did reenforce that poster thing and a wooden.. Wood...

That was one of his first few... Projection/Reinforcement.
Reinforcement is not easy. There was one part where he says reinforcing a item that's already perfect or near perfect is extremely difficult and he can actually make it worse, or even break it.

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Unread post by Shikiller » April 23rd, 2008, 1:43 am

inferno_flamex wrote:
Einherjar wrote:But he's just too weak and slow too make full use them most of the time -_-
HF Shirou is an exception of course.
And Caladbolg is not in full potential since it was traced, so it's weaker. The modifying part just made it even more questionable.
Who really cares if he's too weak... Give em some sexual harem power and he would have mana capabilities needed to perform those :lol: .. The main point of arguement is that he can activate powers of NPs but only through his weaker projections... No restrictions...


I kinda understand what Dante is saying... YES i agree has NO RIGHT to use Avalon or its power, as it is a symbol of a king. And he is not...

But that restriction does not apply to the ones he projected...


Its like this...

Imagine the Royal Crown of the Queen of England! Big whoop... One must be the queen to wear it... So... Only the QUEEN of ENGLAND can wear it yes? Yes??...

Anyway.. Enter SHIROU! The greatest faker in the world, possibly the only one of his kind... Finds interest in the crown.. I donnno.. Maybe he thinks its fancyful.

So he projected a FAKE crown for himself... Now... What is there to stop him from wearing a crown that is meant for her majesty the queen?? Nothing... Its a fake... He created a fake, knowing its a fake...

There is nothing to stop him from wearing that crown and walk around McDonalds like an idiot... The crown that can only be used by a Queen, is now used by Shirou.. Granted that his projection is a fake. But of course it has to be a fake if he's able to wear it...

Shirou could NEVER EVER not EVER wear the REAL crown jewels of england.... Never... No matter how hard he begged i bet... But who is to say that he could'nt wear a FAKE one? Yeah.. Hmm.. Maybe the English Authorities... (Think the magic association in this case)...

Sure.. He'd be chased as one who has created a blasphemy, he was able to only use that FAKE crown only once.. But the main point is...

~~He had WORN THE CROWN, SOMETHING THAT HE COULD NEVER WEAR BEFORE... (THROUGH PROJECTION)...
~~He had ACTIVATE AVALON, SOMETHING THAT HE COULD NEVER ACTIVATE BEFORE... (THROUGH PROJECTION)...
Example...
What Shirou could possibily see when he TRACED the REAL Avalon:
► Show Spoiler
What Shirou could possibily DO abot it when he PROJECTED the FAKE Avalon:
► Show Spoiler

And since we're on the subject of projection of fakes...

What is there to say about Shirou not being able to project... YES.. you heard me... PROJECT the powers of Avalon... No no no.. Im not saying he ACTIVATE it.. Im saying he TRACED it when Saber first used it.. Then PROJECTED it, the powers itself, during his final fight.
Something similar as to how he was able to trace archer's style of fighting and use it for himself...

Have any of us think of it in this way perhaps?
Avalon is the only thing that Shirou can trace and does trace exactly as the original.Re-read the last fight of Fate,he didn't "change" it in any way.He doesn't "project the ability", and Avalon is only activated because Saber used the original near him.
Why is so hard to understand that some NP have additional requirements to activate their true power?
"Excalibur doesn't have the specific legend of how you need to be the true king. Excalibur was created as "the symbol of the most powerful weapon of mankind" while Caliburn was "the weapon in the stone that selects the true king". Hence you need to be king for Caliburn, but no such thing for Excalibur.
Avalon is a place where only the king can go. The sheath is a cristallization of that, anyone couldn't possibly activate it other than Saber. It would ruin the point of Avalon being an unreachable place if... everybody could reach it."
Raitei wrote:
.[/b]

it's clear that shirou is able provide all the information (let me say in this case, "passcode") needed to grant him the "permission" to use the weapon's true power. even the experiences of the weapons can be reproduced precisely.
What's clear there? when he imagines he "analize" the weapon that he wants to trace from his internal world and "downloads it" from there. The traced weapon is as close as possible to the original, additional requiments included.
What Archer uses to change Caladbolg is Alteration 変化 - Henge- The next step above reinforcement. Altering the shape of the weapon is easier than altering its "soul".

I have been posting quotes from reliables sources, writers of Fuyuki wiki, Type Moon english wiki.
Like Dante , i give up. You can continue with your random baseless disscusion now.

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Unread post by inferno_flamex » April 23rd, 2008, 2:35 am

Shirou never did reach Avalon... Whoever said that he did?

Had he 'reached' is just a sad sad faked version of it... Everything that he made through projection was never real in the first place...

Why is it so hard to understand that everything he projected is a FAKE? And fakes dont have ANY REAL power in the first place???
"When a petanko hugs you, she's hugging closer to her heart"...
~:~:~
"There is no greater love, between a boy and his pillow"
~:~:~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_FT_c3IiQ

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Unread post by Enigma » April 23rd, 2008, 4:03 am

Shirou can only project something he has seen once. When he tried to trace Excaliber (going from his dreams / Saber's memories), he traced it wrong. After tracing it incorrectly, it shattered easily, but could slice off Berserkers arm.

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Unread post by Mukuro » April 23rd, 2008, 8:45 am

I did say it's a complete copy but its power is reduced by one rank which make it inferior to the original yet with the same ability, experience, material, etc. Thus it became a fake which cannot surpass its original. It is a complete copy in a way that he cannot alter whatever the item had gone through while the result itself is a fake that is inferior.

Like Shikiller said, with Caladbolg II Archer didn't alter the weapon's 'soul'. He trace Caladbolg, THEN he added his own modification and called it caladbolg II. He didn't change it while tracing but after the item itself is traced. After that he turned it into a broken phantasm and fire it like an arrow.

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Unread post by TheOverlord » April 23rd, 2008, 9:05 am

Then why when he used it against Caster did he say Caladbolg and it activated properly? I mean he unleashed its power even though it was an altered version of the orginal yet it still responded to its true name even though it was clearly labeled as Caladbolg II.

Shirou projected a perfect copy of Avalon because it had been lodged in him for so long. On the last night when he recreated it, it was flawless, even saber said as much. Its the only noble phantom that he can trace perfectly, probably even after sabers gone he can still trace it without any penalty, however with no connection to saber any longer he can't regenerate much less use its full power. I would say like others before have stated that it only activated because saber activated hers nearby(kinda like a sympathetic vibration).

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Unread post by Geburah san » April 24th, 2008, 2:15 pm

Enigma wrote:Shirou can only project something he has seen once. When he tried to trace Excaliber (going from his dreams / Saber's memories), he traced it wrong. After tracing it incorrectly, it shattered easily, but could slice off Berserkers arm.
Excalibur its not equal to Caliburn as it was said before.

Excalibur is her Noble Phantasm, Caliburn was lost/destroyed while she lived

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » April 24th, 2008, 9:30 pm

► Show Spoiler
Am I being confusing enough? :P

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