UBW Lancer

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Unread postby WingZero » March 27th, 2008, 1:24 am

@ Undream:

yes, it is. Once again, that's not "power".

And to be a little nitpicky, it's not "every weapon", it's "swords" specifically.

Yes, he can read the blueprints and understand a weapon that he sees (or at least, he does so for many non-swords), but as his affinity is "sword", he can trace any sword he sees (Except Ea) (Noble Phantasm-wise. I'd imagine he can probably trace non-NP, non-sword weapons.). As for non-swords, if he can trace them, he hasn't done so. (Avalon and Rho Aias are somehow exempt from this...) (...And Berserker's stone-...thing counts as a sword, I think?)

So saying "ability to trace all weapons" is a bit of a misnomer.


*edit*

Thanks to Twilight for proving my earlier point.
Last edited by WingZero on March 27th, 2008, 1:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby twilightlegacy » March 27th, 2008, 1:25 am

i remember that the Rho Aias was considered a impenetrable defense because:

Since the shield is a conceptual weapon, it is the shield that could apparently be used to block the Gungir. To clarify, a conceptual weapon is a weapon that always executes a certain effect. Therefore, even if Archer produces a version that is inferior to the original phantasm via tracing, it will still perform it's designated function. In this case, the Rho Aias he traces is inferior to the original but it still emulates the strength of a fortress (similar to Avalon i guess). Since the Gae Bolg pierced the Rho Aias, Archer is implying that the Gae Bolg is stronger than Gungnir because it accomplished what the Gungnir couldn't.


Of course, my sources could be wrong.
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Unread postby rastilin » March 27th, 2008, 5:52 am

The most likely reason to compare the two is because it's stated that the concept of Gae Bolg was based on Gungnir. Specifically, Gil says this when fighting Lancer in Fate route. Incidentally, Gil has Gungnir and it's known that Archer would have seen it before even if he didn't fight against it.
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Unread postby A.R.C.C. » March 31st, 2008, 10:08 am

The Spear of Lugh, one of the four legendary national treasures of Ireland but seperate from Gae Bolg, is a spear that always strikes its target and always returns to its owner's hand, by a word of command. That much I do know. It belonged to the Irish god Lugh, and was brought to Ireland from one of the fairyland-type realms with the Tuatha de Danaan. It was called the "Blazing Spear" and had to be kept with its head in the Daghda's Cauldron (another of the four treasures) to keep from scorching its surroundings.
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Unread postby Raitei » March 31st, 2008, 10:31 am

A.R.C.C. wrote:The Spear of Lugh, one of the four legendary national treasures of Ireland but seperate from Gae Bolg, is a spear that always strikes its target and always returns to its owner's hand, by a word of command. That much I do know. It belonged to the Irish god Lugh, and was brought to Ireland from one of the fairyland-type realms with the Tuatha de Danaan. It was called the "Blazing Spear" and had to be kept with its head in the Daghda's Cauldron (another of the four treasures) to keep from scorching its surroundings.
ahh, I see. no wonder someone could confuse it with gae bolg; they're both from the same origin :P

oh, btw, my memory seems a little vague, so here's the question : where did lancer stabbed himself when kotomine ordered him to commit suicide? I wonder why didn't he die in an instant if gae bolg pierced his heart... then again,
I remember fubuki from samurai deeper kyo did the same, and even gained power by doing that ^^U


edit : oh, just remembered that lugh is actually cu chulainn's father. :P
Last edited by Raitei on March 31st, 2008, 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby kerogoth » March 31st, 2008, 11:05 am

Easy, Lancer has Battle Continuation rank A, which allows for battle even on the verge of death.
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Unread postby Qaenyin Angelblade » March 31st, 2008, 6:38 pm

Archer can identify the material composition and such just by looking at something, because the material for all earthly weapons are within UBW. Ea, however, is not made of earthly materials, and therefore cannot be identified by archer or traced using UBW.
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Unread postby Voidlugiron » April 1st, 2008, 12:49 pm

twilightlegacy wrote:i remember that the Rho Aias was considered a impenetrable defense because:

Since the shield is a conceptual weapon, it is the shield that could apparently be used to block the Gungir. To clarify, a conceptual weapon is a weapon that always executes a certain effect. Therefore, even if Archer produces a version that is inferior to the original phantasm via tracing, it will still perform it's designated function. In this case, the Rho Aias he traces is inferior to the original but it still emulates the strength of a fortress (similar to Avalon i guess). Since the Gae Bolg pierced the Rho Aias, Archer is implying that the Gae Bolg is stronger than Gungnir because it accomplished what the Gungnir couldn't.


Of course, my sources could be wrong.


It states in the first fight between Saber and Lancer that Gae Bolg has some reverse circumstances effect where it will alter any parameters in order for the spear to hit. Doesn't that mean even if the projection was perfect Rho Aias wouldn't have a chance to begin with?
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Unread postby Raitei » April 1st, 2008, 1:23 pm

the nature of gae Bolg : impaling barbed death and gae bolg : striking death flight are way different.

imagine a sniper rifle and a grenade gun, where gae bolg : impaling barbed death is the sniper rifle, and gae bolg : striking death flight is the grenade gun. one focuses on the accuracy, while the other concentrates only on raw attack power.
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Unread postby Yazan Kiriel » April 1st, 2008, 2:10 pm

Raitei wrote:the nature of gae Bolg : impaling barbed death and gae bolg : striking death flight are way different.

imagine a sniper rifle and a grenade gun, where gae bolg : impaling barbed death is the sniper rifle, and gae bolg : striking death flight is the grenade gun. one focuses on the accuracy, while the other concentrates only on raw attack power.


Eh, a grenade launcher might be a bad comparison, a missile would probably fit it better. Like described in Fate, unlike Gung-nir what could return back to the user, Gae Bolg thrown is a one shot missile.
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Unread postby twilightlegacy » April 2nd, 2008, 3:14 am

Voidlugiron wrote:
twilightlegacy wrote:i remember that the Rho Aias was considered a impenetrable defense because:

Since the shield is a conceptual weapon, it is the shield that could apparently be used to block the Gungir. To clarify, a conceptual weapon is a weapon that always executes a certain effect. Therefore, even if Archer produces a version that is inferior to the original phantasm via tracing, it will still perform it's designated function. In this case, the Rho Aias he traces is inferior to the original but it still emulates the strength of a fortress (similar to Avalon i guess). Since the Gae Bolg pierced the Rho Aias, Archer is implying that the Gae Bolg is stronger than Gungnir because it accomplished what the Gungnir couldn't.


Of course, my sources could be wrong.


It states in the first fight between Saber and Lancer that Gae Bolg has some reverse circumstances effect where it will alter any parameters in order for the spear to hit. Doesn't that mean even if the projection was perfect Rho Aias wouldn't have a chance to begin with?


What you said about the Gae Bolg is true. However, if i'm remembering correctly, the Rho Aias is an absolute defense that is suppose to block ANY attack. The difference between the Rho Aias and Avalon is that Avalon is the embodiment of the Utopia of kings, equivalent to the true magics; therefore it forms a defense making the user untouchable. Anyways, the situation is: Gae bolg will always strikes its target while the Rho Aias will always completely blocks against any attack.

So um...how should i say this. they kind of cancel out? :? It's definitely an odd situation.

Also I mentioned before that the traced Rho Aias is not perfect in comparison to the original. However, that is irrelevant in this situation. Since it is a conceptual weapon, it always carries out the effect of the original. Just as a theoretical example to illustrate lets say the copy Rho Aias is made out of wood rather than metal or whatever the real one is composed of. However, the effect of the true Rho Aias is that it always blocks attacks. Therefore, although the wooden one is weak it still is a Rho aias (albeit inferior); therefore it will still perform the designated function of the original - in this case, it is to block attacks.

That would explain why Archer can actually trace and effectively use the Rho Aias although his affinity is swords. He doesn't need to create a nearly identical copy of the Rho Aias; instead he just needs an inferior version that still produces the desired effect.

However, as i stated before, my sources could be inaccurate.
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Unread postby Brizzle » April 2nd, 2008, 3:32 am

Rho Aias has absolute defense against thrown weapons, not all attacks. Still, Gae Bolg nearly defeats it.
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Rho_Aias
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Unread postby inferno_flamex » April 2nd, 2008, 4:02 am

twilightlegacy wrote:That would explain why Archer can actually trace and effectively use the Rho Aias although his affinity is swords. He doesn't need to create a nearly identical copy of the Rho Aias; instead he just needs an inferior version that still produces the desired effect.


As quoted from the game...

Unlimited Blade Works
Infinite Sword Creation
A special magic called a Reality Marble, while Archer is able to use.

Cand duplicates any weapon he has seen, but the duplicated weapon has its rank reduced by one.

Defensive equipment is also possible, but it requires two or three times as much magical energy.


But because it is one rank lower, Archer blocked GB with a heavy injury... And most of his magical energy depleted due to RA bein 3 times more to summon.
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Unread postby bob022 » May 3rd, 2008, 8:22 pm

I thought lancer was freaking awesome UBW route as well
A. His overall personality when you first meet (especially if you choose the second option XD)

B. He pwns Archer when he has Caster as his master

C. You actually see his sense of pride and honor, and how desperate he is to keep both in tact, given when his heart has a huge freaking hole in it he still manages to kill Kotomine and chase off Shinji, and doesn't even worry about being healed.

D. The only downside I see to him as with all routes is he takes orders way too seriously, not to say I blame him too much for that because the command seal binding could have an effect on him.
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Unread postby DarkEyes » May 3rd, 2008, 8:41 pm

Brizzle wrote:Gae Bolg nearly defeats it.

GB does defeat it, otherwise Archer's arm wouldn't have almost been ripped off and his body wouldn't have been wounded =]

Btw, I just noticed something.. From http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Rho_Aias
At the end of Tohsaka Rin's route, the one that defends Emiya Shirou isn't projected by him, but by Archer from a distance.

That's bullshit, Shirou projects it himself, I just checked...




bob022 wrote:I thought lancer was freaking awesome UBW route as well
D. The only downside I see to him as with all routes is he takes orders way too seriously, not to say I blame him too much for that because the command seal binding could have an effect on him.


Where the hell did u get idea?
Lancer only followed either orders via command spell or orders he doesn't mind himself.. When he let Saber go after his first match with her, he was under the effect of the "Fight against everyone. But do not defeat them. Survive your first battle against any opponent." command spell order... Later in Fate he screwed Kotomine and attacked Gil letting Saber & Shirou high tail it... And in UBW he got orders to help Tohsaka and Shirou, it kinda looked to me like he enjoyed em =p Lastly he killed himself with a CS order and then stabbed the shit out of Kotomine in return.. I dunn see 'em following too much orders, dude =|
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Unread postby WingZero » May 3rd, 2008, 8:46 pm

@ Dark:

No he doesn't.
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Unread postby uriel » May 3rd, 2008, 8:49 pm

bob022 wrote:I thought lancer was freaking awesome UBW route as well
B. He pwns Archer when he has Caster as his master


Well, I don't agree with this, He didn't win the battle against Archer, it was more like a draw, and Archer also menage to stop his "unblockable" noble phantasm
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Unread postby DarkEyes » May 3rd, 2008, 8:57 pm

Does everyone not notice Archer's damn arm barely being attached and him being wounded all over? What do u think would've happened if Lancer continued the fight?
And where is it said that the THROWN Gae Bolg is unblockable? I only remember the STABBED one being unblockable, as the throw emphasizes attack power over accuracy... If Lancer would've chosen stabbing Archer instead of blowing him up, Archer would've had 1 less heart..


@Wing
But dude, I just checked, he seriously does..
This is why one of my eyes is open.
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Unread postby Kansho » May 3rd, 2008, 9:44 pm

DarkEyes wrote:@Wing
But dude, I just checked, he seriously does..
This is why one of my eyes is open.
I pull out a shield from the hill to block the oncoming Noble Phantasms----!

No, Kinoko said it,
the one who projected Rho Aias was Archer to protect Shirou. That "I" was refering to Archer, Shirou was so "out" chanting the lines that he didn't notice it. In UBW they were connected, and the text in that moment is mere symbolism. Shirou can't trace yet a seven layer Rho Aias by himself, he needs years of training.

That's official info explained in Fate/Side Material, not bullshit.
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Unread postby chasmirror » May 3rd, 2008, 9:47 pm

Okay, first, Rho Aias is the ultimate defence against any THROWN attacks or weapons.

If you have to throw or shoot it, then Rho Aias should be able to stop it. However, in case of Gae Bolg(in UBW, the attack Lancer used was not the one-kill attack, but always-hits-target thrown attack of the spear), it was so powerful that even with Rho Aias Archer could not block it completely. If I remember correctly, he sustained quite a bit of damage on his arm.


It is not certain that Archer had experienced Gungnir firsthand. He might have, might have not. But even if he didn't, it wouldn't be so far off to think that Archer could somehow deduce it. Gungnir does not have the destruction power that Gae Bolg has, mainly because unlike Gungnir, which is an Anti-unit weapon, Gae Bolg is an Anti-army weapon. Strictly speaking of destructive power, the order goes: Anti-star(Escalibur is included here) > Anti-army > Anti-unit, regardless of their ranks.

This is due to its association with Lancer, or to be more exact, Cuchulainn. The Irish hero's legend tells that he held off an entire army by himself. So Gae Bolg gained the fame of being a spear that "fights off an army," thus gaining its status as an Anti-army weapon(of course, when thrown. Its heart-piercing attack is still considered an Anti-unit attack) .

According to Nasu's explanation, it is inevitable that a noble phantasm loses a rank as it is passed on from a legend to another legend. In case of Gae Bolg, it goes something like Gungnir -> Lugh's spear -> Gae Bolg. So as the rank goes, Gae Bolg is lower than Gungnir.

But Nasu also said that because of the nature of a noble phantasm, depending on the legend it is associated with, it can also gain ability or power that the original did not have. Gae Bolg is a good example. Although the original Gungnir was only an Anti-unit weapon, because of the heroic feat performed by Cuchulainn with Gae Bolg, the spear itself has more destructive power than the original.

Of course, this does not mean Gae Bolg is guaranteed to beat Gungnir. After all, a bazooka might pack more punch, but it is a lousier weapon for a duel.
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