UBW Lancer

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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Unread postby Shikiller » August 5th, 2008, 6:25 am

The shield is me myself.
Even though the NP did not reach me, my body is full of holes.


If the one who supposedly put the shield was Archer, Shirou saw him, so no "in dizziness he didn't see him", but it makes sense if Shirou put a random shield and Archer trow himself to block with his body, or put Aius.
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Unread postby Inverted » August 5th, 2008, 6:44 am

I think that scene is more to convey that at the end of UBW there is no difference between "Archer" and "Shirou" .There is only Emiya Shirou . Their minds, their ideals freed of regrets is no longer separate, butperfectly synchronized.Its the same guy in 2 places . I think that perfectly coveys UBW.
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Unread postby Raitei » August 5th, 2008, 9:21 am

Shikiller wrote:The shield is me myself.
Even though the NP did not reach me, my body is full of holes.


If the one who supposedly put the shield was Archer, Shirou saw him, so no "in dizziness he didn't see him", but it makes sense if Shirou put a random shield and Archer trow himself to block with his body, or put Aius.
did you not read what I said? shirou projected the shield, but it was destroyed before it could block all the incoming np. while writhing in pain, shirou might not have noticed archer's presence. imagine you're shot by a shotgun while wearing a kevlar at an almost point blank distance. would you notice a covering fire from the distance using a silencer?

gil = king of carelessness. nuff said.

@ inverted : they aren't so united that they share the pain taken... even if so, why don't use the word "us"? ( like venom, lol. )
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Inverted » August 5th, 2008, 3:27 pm

Raitei wrote:@ inverted : they aren't so united that they share the pain taken... even if so, why don't use the word "us"? ( like venom, lol. )

Maybe a Japanese expert can answer this .

Anyway ,I still think "I" makes sense . I was thinking along the lines of

I (Shirou) will make it.
This is why one of the my (Archer's) eyes is open.
I (Archer) pull out a shield from the hill to block the oncoming NP------!
"Guh---!"
The swarm of of swords batter against the shield.
The shield is me myself (Archer) .
My (Archer) body breaks up as each petal of the shield is pierced and damaged.
Blood trickles from my mouth (Archer).
Even though the NP did not reach me (Shirou) , my body(Archer) is full of holes.

Shirou referred to Archer as himself when Archer got battered by GOB.He says
I can only look up at myself that skewered in front of me.

Before that Archer says something like
If she had been more cruel I would not have returned to my old self.

The above Rho Aius scene IMO is use to reinforce that point that they are one and the same especially after their battle where "Archer" got his answer.

Even at the and Shirou says that he is not used to part with himself.
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Unread postby Einherjar » August 5th, 2008, 4:04 pm

Even if it's so, Shirou should have realized Archer's there by then, unless he is dumb.
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Unread postby Inverted » August 5th, 2008, 4:27 pm

IMO he realises "Archer" is there and refers to him as "I". Or it might just as well be Nasu's retcon.
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Unread postby password » August 5th, 2008, 5:10 pm

Ahmm... How can Shirou realise that Archer was there during the battle when at the end of battle, he is totally surprised when Archer tells him to dodge his arrow and is like "Omg..Wtf...the hell is he here? Ah well, couldn't care less anyways, but I saved my ass again it seems and as it is I myself, I don't need to say thanks or anything...".
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Unread postby Inverted » August 5th, 2008, 7:09 pm

Well you can theorise Archer did leave Shirou to go save Rin . So Shirou was probably surprised by the suddenness of his
attack more than anything else as he was expecting Archer to be somewhere else.

Well this is just theory .I'm just trying to make sense of events after Archer protected Shirou with Rho Aius . It could be anything.
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Unread postby Raitei » August 6th, 2008, 12:14 am

@ inverted : it would even make more sense if archer is the one who uses the pronoun "I" ( reverse order from what you said ). after all, he could have seen the scene from afar and projected the shield.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Shikiller » August 6th, 2008, 1:59 am

Raitei wrote:
Shikiller wrote:The shield is me myself.
Even though the NP did not reach me, my body is full of holes.


If the one who supposedly put the shield was Archer, Shirou saw him, so no "in dizziness he didn't see him", but it makes sense if Shirou put a random shield and Archer trow himself to block with his body, or put Aius.
did you not read what I said? shirou projected the shield, but it was destroyed before it could block all the incoming np. while writhing in pain, shirou might not have noticed archer's presence. imagine you're shot by a shotgun while wearing a kevlar at an almost point blank distance. would you notice a covering fire from the distance using a silencer?

gil = king of carelessness. nuff said.

@ inverted : they aren't so united that they share the pain taken... even if so, why don't use the word "us"? ( like venom, lol. )


errr... i was aggreing with you about about the shield stuff. But the lines The shield is me myself.
Even though the NP did not reach me, my body is full of holes.

clearly tells us that he saw Archer, plus what the other members said.
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Unread postby Raitei » August 6th, 2008, 3:52 am

that's the point : shirou didn't realize archer was there until he revealed himself. the other possibility is the reverse of inverted's theory : that it was archer who was narrating ( describing ) the scene. however, why would nasu make it like that when shirou is still the main character?

I was thinking of something along the line that shirou projected rho aias and defended against the sword spam. he still thinks that his rho aias ( 4 layers ) that blocked the incoming nps. he didn't notice archer one.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby password » August 6th, 2008, 3:48 pm

I think Archer being the narrator is more plausible. "The shield is me myself" means Archer is using all his body has left to project the shield and is thus using his own body as the shield. "Even though the NPs did not reach me, my body is full of holes." can mean either of the following. He could be saying that even though the NPs didn't reach him, him being how he refers to Shirou after accepting Shirou, his(Archer's) body is full of holes, as he used his body itself as the shield. Or, he could be referring to that fight with Gil and telling us how the NPs didn't actually reach him but his body is full of holes anyways. I think its the former one. That makes sense if you ask me. He's basically saying he used himself as a shield to save himself, and succeeds but has his body pierced nonetheless. It would be really awkward if Shirou was the one narrating this. As Archer and Shirou are essentially the same, Kinoko should have had no problems using them interchangeably as the protagonist so late into the story. And if you say the main character is Shirou and he has to be in the spotlight, well, he has next to no role in the ending as well. I'd say that Archer is basically projecting the shield from afar and has taken over the narrative. Or, it could simply be that it doesn't matter who between Archer and Shirou is narrating as they are essentially the same. I don't think Shirou noticed Archer until the end of battle though, he gets just far too surprised to have known that Archer was there. And the way he keeps asking himself why he(Archer) told him that they(Well, Emiya Shirous) were the only match for Gil, I doubt he would ponder over it so much if he had felt Archer's presence as he could simply ask him or figure it out himself. And Shirou didn't project Rho Aius, he just didn't have enough magical energy to spare to case a defensive equipment that would cost twice or thrice as much mana.
Last edited by password on August 6th, 2008, 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Einherjar » August 6th, 2008, 4:14 pm

That, or it's Shirou that originally projected the shield, but Nasu find it a problem, so he changed it.
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Unread postby Rikh » August 6th, 2008, 4:36 pm

Since he was in the process of chanting the reality marble, he had a connection with it in his mind. To stop gil's attacks for more time, he "pulled a shield off the hill" to defend himself. His body is full of holes because his projection magic is special, he utilizes part of himself for his projections to work. When his shield is full of holes, so is the part of him used in the projection of it. He grabbed the shield from his own reality marble in his head and used it to protect himself.
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Unread postby password » August 6th, 2008, 5:30 pm

Rikh wrote:Since he was in the process of chanting the reality marble, he had a connection with it in his mind. To stop gil's attacks for more time, he "pulled a shield off the hill" to defend himself. His body is full of holes because his projection magic is special, he utilizes part of himself for his projections to work. When his shield is full of holes, so is the part of him used in the projection of it. He grabbed the shield from his own reality marble in his head and used it to protect himself.

Did you actually read the other posts? Its archer that used the Shield, not Shirou. And there is no implication at any point during the battle that Shirou knows about Archer being there. As Shirou was severely lacking in mana and would have to be really concentrated in those chants as he was doing it for the first time, he would never be able to project Aius at that point for two reasons, first, the hill is not there for him to pull it out from, as the reality marble is not yet activated and second, he just doesn't have the mana to spare to use Aius. There is a possibility that he could trace Aius rather than pull it out of the reality marble but he had never seen Aius to do that either. Its Archer, not Shirou. Well, its Shirou one way or the other lol.
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