Unlimited Blade Works discussion(NOT THE PATCH)(spoiler)

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Unread postby Shikiller » June 7th, 2008, 11:51 pm

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Then Caster's life is saved By Kuzuki.

Now, did Rin have a legitimate victory using a good planned and executed strategy against a servant Yes or No?

And anyone have anything to say about Gil accepting defeat?
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Unread postby md » June 8th, 2008, 12:55 am

Shikiller wrote:Now, did Rin have a legitimate victory using a good planned and executed strategy against a servant Yes or No?

Dur, no. Obviously the errata says humans suck, and there's no way she could have won. Caster was just toying with her or not doing her best in the fight. And she didn't lose, Kuzuki savered her.
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Unread postby Shikiller » June 8th, 2008, 1:05 am

md wrote:
Shikiller wrote:Now, did Rin have a legitimate victory using a good planned and executed strategy against a servant Yes or No?

Dur, no. Obviously the errata says humans suck, and there's no way she could have won. Caster was just toying with her or not doing her best in the fight. And she didn't lose, Kuzuki savered her.


Errata? She lost, she was about to die, she just didn't die. And if Rin played well her cards and Caster not, props to Rin right?
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Unread postby WingZero » June 8th, 2008, 1:05 am

Dur, no. Obviously the errata says humans suck, and there's no way she could have won.


She can win, and she did win.

Caster has been deceived and has lost completely.


Caster was just toying with her or not doing her best in the fight.


Nobody stated that she was doing her best

And she didn't lose, Kuzuki savered her.


Again:
Caster has been deceived and has lost completely.


Kuzuki saved her BECAUSE she lost. She didn't DIE because Kuzuki saved her, but she still lost.

Lose != death
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Unread postby Miraploy » June 8th, 2008, 1:23 am

What are you trying to prove? State your point again?

:wink:
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Unread postby md » June 8th, 2008, 1:29 am

Shikiller wrote:
md wrote:
Shikiller wrote:Now, did Rin have a legitimate victory using a good planned and executed strategy against a servant Yes or No?

Dur, no. Obviously the errata says humans suck, and there's no way she could have won. Caster was just toying with her or not doing her best in the fight. And she didn't lose, Kuzuki savered her.


Errata? She lost, she was about to die, she just didn't die. And if Rin played well her cards and Caster not, props to Rin right?


I meant to be sarcastic. I'm on your side. Well, I already gave up and decided it'd be more fun to just try to piss Raitei off.

Also: "Errata" means crap you read in side encyclopedias and other parts of the universe and interviews with the author and shit. It's not strictly part of the story. The Shiki and Shirou I have in my head are much cooler than what has been explained to me by harder core fans.
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Unread postby Shikiller » June 8th, 2008, 1:34 am

md wrote:
Shikiller wrote:
md wrote:[quote="Shikiller"]Now, did Rin have a legitimate victory using a good planned and executed strategy against a servant Yes or No?

Dur, no. Obviously the errata says humans suck, and there's no way she could have won. Caster was just toying with her or not doing her best in the fight. And she didn't lose, Kuzuki savered her.


Errata? She lost, she was about to die, she just didn't die. And if Rin played well her cards and Caster not, props to Rin right?


I meant to be sarcastic. I'm on your side. Well, I already gave up and decided it'd be more fun to just try to piss Raitei off.[/quote]

i thought so, but i didn't know what errata means, well i know now, you meant that there is a text corrected version of the game, that says that human sucks and there is no way for Rin to win, right? i should study some more english.
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Unread postby Raitei » June 8th, 2008, 1:45 am

md wrote:I meant to be sarcastic. I'm on your side. Well, I already gave up and decided it'd be more fun to just try to piss Raitei off.
eeh? :?
md wrote:Also: "Errata" means crap you read in side encyclopedias and other parts of the universe and interviews with the author and shit. It's not strictly part of the story. The Shiki and Shirou I have in my head are much cooler than what has been explained to me by harder core fans.
mmph, stuffs like that tend to be a lot cooler than they really are - harry potter, vol. 7 - the silver doe.

but fate side material is interesting to read. I even bought one even though I don't moonspeak :P

reinforced hakkyoku-ken owns :twisted:

edit : someone here's clearly altered the original discussion, since the main point is there're no such things as a servant class human, not a human can defeat a servant.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Cat Megex » June 8th, 2008, 2:37 am

Raitei wrote:edit : someone here's clearly altered the original discussion, since the main point is there're no such things as a servant class human, not a human can defeat a servant.


...Saber.

Yes, Saber. Remember, she became a Servant before she died? So, technically, she's a Servant-class human. >_>
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Unread postby Kiraiya » June 8th, 2008, 2:40 am

I think the first two things Shikiller showed were about your comment about how Gil didn't lose but it was an unsettled match. Seems like he lost to me... I have no idea what he's trying to prove with the Caster scene though.
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Unread postby Raitei » June 8th, 2008, 2:56 am

Cat Megex wrote:
Raitei wrote:edit : someone here's clearly altered the original discussion, since the main point is there're no such things as a servant class human, not a human can defeat a servant.


...Saber.

Yes, Saber. Remember, she became a Servant before she died? So, technically, she's a Servant-class human. >_>
no. she is not a heroic spirit, YET. but she's still a servant.
fuyuki wiki wrote: In her case, she is more or less frozen in her time and what she experiences each time is like a dream to the body in her time line. As she's binded to that, she's still considered "dead" in the modern world, meaning she won't age, can't take surgery, etc., just like other Servants. Restoration of the soul itself (as opposed to bringing a "dead" person back to life through the use of time travel, parallel worlds, and denial of nothingness; the result is still the same but the process and operating principles are different) as a being that's part of the current world time line is only possible through the completed materialization of the soul.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Kiraiya » June 8th, 2008, 3:08 am

Raitei wrote:
Cat Megex wrote:
Raitei wrote:edit : someone here's clearly altered the original discussion, since the main point is there're no such things as a servant class human, not a human can defeat a servant.


...Saber.

Yes, Saber. Remember, she became a Servant before she died? So, technically, she's a Servant-class human. >_>
no. she is not a heroic spirit, YET. but she's still a servant.
fuyuki wiki wrote: In her case, she is more or less frozen in her time and what she experiences each time is like a dream to the body in her time line. As she's binded to that, she's still considered "dead" in the modern world, meaning she won't age, can't take surgery, etc., just like other Servants. Restoration of the soul itself (as opposed to bringing a "dead" person back to life through the use of time travel, parallel worlds, and denial of nothingness; the result is still the same but the process and operating principles are different) as a being that's part of the current world time line is only possible through the completed materialization of the soul.


Umm Raitei...he never called her a heroic spirit...he said that she's still a servant. Were you trying to argue his point or prove it?
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Unread postby Raitei » June 8th, 2008, 3:37 am

Kiraiya wrote:Umm Raitei...he never called her a heroic spirit...he said that she's still a servant. Were you trying to argue his point or prove it?
well, to put it short, servant != servant class human. saber is a servant. geddit? ;)

and saber isn't truly alive. the world recorded her as "dead".
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Cat Megex » June 8th, 2008, 4:32 am

Raitei wrote:and saber isn't truly alive. the world recorded her as "dead".


...Don't get me started on time paradoxes, y'hear?
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Unread postby Raitei » June 8th, 2008, 4:37 am

Cat Megex wrote:
Raitei wrote:and saber isn't truly alive. the world recorded her as "dead".


...Don't get me started on time paradoxes, y'hear?
er, what? did you read fuyuki wiki info? there's no time paradox for her; she's "frozen" in time.
fuyuki wiki wrote: In her case, she is more or less frozen in her time and what she experiences each time is like a dream to the body in her time line. As she's binded to that, she's still considered "dead" in the modern world, meaning she won't age, can't take surgery, etc., just like other Servants. Restoration of the soul itself (as opposed to bringing a "dead" person back to life through the use of time travel, parallel worlds, and denial of nothingness; the result is still the same but the process and operating principles are different) as a being that's part of the current world time line is only possible through the completed materialization of the soul.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Cat Megex » June 8th, 2008, 5:10 am

Raitei wrote:there's no time paradox for her; she's "frozen" in time.


I used the wrong phrasing. (Not sure what the correct phrasing would be, though....)

Anyway, it really depends on your definition of "truly alive". For one thing, Saber is probably closer to being alive than any of the other Servants, and if her body underwent a thorough physical examination, what differences would be detectable from a normal human's body? (Note: there probably would be a few oddities, what with her supposedly having been partially gendershifted by Merlin at some point, but not enough for a doctor to rule her as being "dead".) If, by "alive", you mean "caught in the stream of time", then yes, Saber would not be considered alive. However, using objective analysis, it can be said that, during the Holy Grail War(s) (and following the fifth war, if you considering UBW's good ending), Saber is alive, but only for that period of time. Once she is returned to the past to "fulfill [her] duty", she is returned to the flow of time and dies.

...I actually have a question relating to Saber's death, as well. I'm a little confused about the stuff relating to Avalon (the place, not the sheath), and whether it actually exists in the Nasuverse. Is it merely used as a metaphor, or does it actually exist?
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Unread postby Raitei » June 8th, 2008, 5:15 am

(Note: there probably would be a few oddities, what with her supposedly having been partially gendershifted by Merlin at some point, but not enough for a doctor to rule her as being "dead".)
that doesn't exist anymore, no :P.

regarding saber's "death":
fuyuki wiki wrote:As she's binded to that, she's still considered "dead" in the modern world, meaning she won't age, can't take surgery, etc., just like other Servants.
and saber is different from gil; she doesn't have a physical body. meaning that her body is just spiritual like other servants, embodiment of the third magic. (wait. I know what you're going to say, that saber cannot go to spirit form. well, it's more likely that her summoning isn't "complete". just like that.)


regarding avalon... I think the description of avalon (the np) is implying that it does exist in nasuverse. :wink:
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Cat Megex » June 8th, 2008, 7:14 am

Raitei wrote:regarding avalon... I think the description of avalon (the np) is implying that it does exist in nasuverse. :wink:


...I'm assuming you mean Avalon the place, because the Noble Phantasm is already known to exist. That does pose an interesting question, though. What exactly would such a place be in the Nasuverse? I mean, the description of Avalon (the NP) says it shifts the wielder "into the land of the fairies", but...what exactly is "the land of the fairies" according to Nasu?

Also, I like the last sentence in the description for Excalibur. "You could also call it a directed energy weapon." Having been playing Bootfighter Windom XP just a few hours ago, I started thinking about beam weapons and all that and...well, it's kind of hard to describe my reaction, but it was accompanied by a small chuckle.
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Unread postby Phoenician » June 8th, 2008, 7:31 am

Cat Megex wrote:
Raitei wrote:regarding avalon... I think the description of avalon (the np) is implying that it does exist in nasuverse. :wink:


...I'm assuming you mean Avalon the place, because the Noble Phantasm is already known to exist. That does pose an interesting question, though. What exactly would such a place be in the Nasuverse? I mean, the description of Avalon (the NP) says it shifts the wielder "into the land of the fairies", but...what exactly is "the land of the fairies" according to Nasu?

Also, I like the last sentence in the description for Excalibur. "You could also call it a directed energy weapon." Having been playing Bootfighter Windom XP just a few hours ago, I started thinking about beam weapons and all that and...well, it's kind of hard to describe my reaction, but it was accompanied by a small chuckle.


and would Draco from Dragonheart be there
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Unread postby handey » June 8th, 2008, 4:27 pm

oh shi..
i see a jihad coming. or a flame war. or a pink elephant.
also, i may be a bit cliche, but..:
what?
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