Unlimited Blade Works discussion(NOT THE PATCH)(spoiler)

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Unread postby md » June 8th, 2008, 4:33 pm

Ilya> "Shirou, I have summoned the strongest servant. The Grappler class."
*Goku waves*
Rin> *runs*
Shirou> *Grabs saber's hand* "HURRY! RUN!"
Saber> "But Shirou I can still stand and fight!"
Shirou> "JUST RUN YOU IDIOT!"
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Unread postby Raitei » June 8th, 2008, 8:56 pm

Cat Megex wrote:...I'm assuming you mean Avalon the place, because the Noble Phantasm is already known to exist. That does pose an interesting question, though. What exactly would such a place be in the Nasuverse? I mean, the description of Avalon (the NP) says it shifts the wielder "into the land of the fairies", but...what exactly is "the land of the fairies" according to Nasu?
of course I mean the place. ;) look at the last line in this page.
Cat Megex wrote:Also, I like the last sentence in the description for Excalibur. "You could also call it a directed energy weapon." Having been playing Bootfighter Windom XP just a few hours ago, I started thinking about beam weapons and all that and...well, it's kind of hard to describe my reaction, but it was accompanied by a small chuckle.
actually, it's more like a kamehameha rather than a beam sword :lol:
http://web.archive.org/web/200705110322 ... ePhantasms
look at excalibur in that page ;)

or to be more specific, this:
fuyuki wiki wrote:And since some people seem to be underestimating Excalibur (just like how people always seem to underestimate Fate character levels because of Deen's subpar effects)

Broad Bridge sequence - in-game display shows a light shockwave expanding beyond this screen meaning radius is larger than just that

After full expansion of the above.

Also, -> http://image.blog.livedoor.jp/humanity6 ... 63deb4.JPG
Picture from Realta Nua. Yellow light being Excalibur. Also note the location.


md : actually, > shirou : *grabs saber's right shoulder* run saber!!
>saber : wha?? to turn my back on the enemy...
>rin&archer : you're crazy einzbern!!!

also, there're other modification of that; the stylish servant demon slayer dante, etc, etc... :lol:
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Cat Megex » June 9th, 2008, 2:44 am

Raitei wrote: of course I mean the place. ;) look at the last line in this page.


Hm...but that says nothing about whether Avalon actually exists in the Nasuverse; as well, if it does exist, nothing is said about whether it's simply the island where Arturia is laid to rest or where her spirit goes after her death. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this. Of course, I needn't ask you to correct me, because you probably would, but....whatever. *shrugs*)
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Unread postby boingman » September 28th, 2008, 10:23 pm

I finished UBW only a few weeks ago, although I had started playing it in march. I took a break when I was somewhere in the middle of the game, so it took me a little bit longer. :)
Anyways, while I really enjoyed UBW, I still prefer the Fate route, particularly the last fight with both Saber and Shirou using Saber's sheath, Avalon. Maybe I'd have ranked UBW differently, had I not known about who Archer really is before playing the route. For me, the most emotional moment in the route was Gilgamesh taking Ilya's heart. Damn, that was both unexpected (I was so sure, that Shirou would be able to help her and then team up) und heart-wrenching. :cry:
Hopefully, she'll be able to kick some ass (together with the rest of the good guys) in HF without dying a cruel death again.

There's one thing which annoyed me: Shirou acting like a jerk when having XXX with Rin. What's up with male Type-Moon main characters anyways? Can't keep their urges under control? I already noticed that in Tsukihime.

I am really looking forward to Sakura's route, especially due to the HF parts which were already translated.

Would be great if you folks could help me out with a few questions which arised while playing the route:

1)
Rin already saw Gilgamesh way back in the Prologue (He was bothering Sakura), while both Shirou and Rin saw him again some time later when observing Sakura's house. Nevertheless, IIRC they act like they didn't know him beforehand when meeting him later on. What's up with that? And why didn't Rin tell Shirou about the Prologue incident?

2)
Why didn't they use Avalon? By using it, they could have easily defeated their enemies and Shirou wouldn't have needed to fight Gilgamesh (and Type-Moon would have needed a different reason for the ShirouxRin energy fill up scene :D). At least Archer should know about it, shouldn't he? Or did he forget about it?
Or wait, maybe he doesn't because he is only a copy of the soul resting somewhere else? So as a copy he doesn't know what happened in the Fate route?

3)
Is it possible to reach the UWB Good End before seeing the True End? If not, what happens if I follow the advices of Tiger Dojo 24 and spend more time with Saber instead of being with Rin?

4)
Is the Tiger Dojo 21 Dead End a joke? :lol: If you're stupid enough to go the church alone, you get 3 choices, but all of them lead to death. Maybe there's a way to get out alive if you scored some kind of points some time earlier?

5)
Why doesn't Excalibur appear in the Weapon Menu?

6)
How does Assassin know about Saber's true identity?

Saber: "I understand, Assassin. I shall settle this match someday."
Assassin: "That is a good response. I will be waiting, king of knights."

I guess he's just that knowledgeable? 8)


Don't know if the following belongs in this thread, since it's technically part of HF, but here goes, since it was already translated:

I'll put a spoiler space just to be safe:

Regarding the intermission called "Worms from hell". I don't want to know with whom Grandpa Zouken is talking (pretty obvious anyways, and if not then I don't want to be spoiled), but what exactly is said, since it confused me.

The "tool" is asking him:

"Do I have to kill every Master?"

Zouken then replies: "If you say so, it cannot be helped. Then I shall restrict myself to observation this time."

And so on...

-->
Should I assume that the way the "tool" is asking, makes it obvious to Zouken that it doesn't want to hurt other ppl? So at first he plays along and says that he'll do nothing, but then decides to take action after all and thus crushes the tool's hope, since he doesn't want the Tohsaka household to win the Grail war? Did I get that right?

A yes/no should be enough, I guess. :)
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Unread postby Shikiller » September 29th, 2008, 2:11 am

boingman wrote:
1)
Rin already saw Gilgamesh way back in the Prologue (He was bothering Sakura), while both Shirou and Rin saw him again some time later when observing Sakura's house. Nevertheless, IIRC they act like they didn't know him beforehand when meeting him later on. What's up with that? And why didn't Rin tell Shirou about the Prologue incident?

2)
Why didn't they use Avalon? By using it, they could have easily defeated their enemies and Shirou wouldn't have needed to fight Gilgamesh (and Type-Moon would have needed a different reason for the ShirouxRin energy fill up scene :D). At least Archer should know about it, shouldn't he? Or did he forget about it?
Or wait, maybe he doesn't because he is only a copy of the soul resting somewhere else? So as a copy he doesn't know what happened in the Fate route?

3)
Is it possible to reach the UWB Good End before seeing the True End? If not, what happens if I follow the advices of Tiger Dojo 24 and spend more time with Saber instead of being with Rin?

4)
Is the Tiger Dojo 21 Dead End a joke? :lol: If you're stupid enough to go the church alone, you get 3 choices, but all of them lead to death. Maybe there's a way to get out alive if you scored some kind of points some time earlier?

5)
Why doesn't Excalibur appear in the Weapon Menu?

6)
How does Assassin know about Saber's true identity?

Saber: "I understand, Assassin. I shall settle this match someday."
Assassin: "That is a good response. I will be waiting, king of knights."

I guess he's just that knowledgeable? 8)



1-good question. Rin should have remembered Gil, but he was just asking for directions, she remembering him wouldn't change anything.

2- Archer knows about Avalon, he mentions " the sheath" during his fight with Shirou. He could have tell Shirou about it when he becomes "good" again...
Saber is the one who realizes about the possibility of the sheath being in Shirou's body during fate, she just didn't during UBW.

3- yes you can, i actually did get the good end before the true one. just pick saber over Rin in every chance, excepting the bad end when Kuzuki kills Rin.

4- There is no way to survive if you go to the church at that point. You can choose not to go if you have enough Rin points. If you don't, you go there without a choice.

5- maybe because you have an entry for Excalibur in her NP's section. Dunno.

6- During fate Assasin intoduces himself as Sasaki Kojiro, and Saber was about to introduce herself, and the intermision ends, i don't remember , but something similar happened in ubw, they introduced each other.

the HF question is more complex than that, the answer is "no".
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Unread postby Raitei » September 29th, 2008, 2:33 am

1-good question. Rin should have remembered Gil, but he was just asking for directions, she remembering him wouldn't change anything.
well, rin's attention was fixed at sakura att. and would you recognize a stranger that just passed by when you see him the following week?

2- Archer knows about Avalon, he mentions " the sheath" during his fight with Shirou. He could have tell Shirou about it when he becomes "good" again...
Saber is the one who realizes about the possibility of the sheath being in Shirou's body during fate, she just didn't during UBW.
avalon would not be that effective unless the opponent's attack is a VERY strong one, e.g. cone sword blast. moreover, just knowing that "the sheath" is there without knowing its true name is useless.

3- yes you can, i actually did get the good end before the true one. just pick saber over Rin in every chance, excepting the bad end when Kuzuki kills Rin.
you can, but I assume the hf route would not be unlocked unless you get the true ending.


5- maybe because you have an entry for Excalibur in her NP's section. Dunno.
well, all weapons that appear in the np station would not appear again in the weapons section.

6- During fate Assasin intoduces himself as Sasaki Kojiro, and Saber was about to introduce herself, and the intermision ends, i don't remember , but something similar happened in ubw, they introduced each other.
saber was about to introduce herself in fate when assassin cut her line, saying that she won't need to do so if she doesn't want to. see, saber was just being courteous because assassin introduced himself first.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Shikiller » September 29th, 2008, 3:13 am

Raitei wrote:
1-good question. Rin should have remembered Gil, but he was just asking for directions, she remembering him wouldn't change anything.
well, rin's attention was fixed at sakura att. and would you recognize a stranger that just passed by when you see him the following week?

2- Archer knows about Avalon, he mentions " the sheath" during his fight with Shirou. He could have tell Shirou about it when he becomes "good" again...
Saber is the one who realizes about the possibility of the sheath being in Shirou's body during fate, she just didn't during UBW.
avalon would not be that effective unless the opponent's attack is a VERY strong one, e.g. cone sword blast. moreover, just knowing that "the sheath" is there without knowing its true name is useless.

3- yes you can, i actually did get the good end before the true one. just pick saber over Rin in every chance, excepting the bad end when Kuzuki kills Rin.
you can, but I assume the hf route would not be unlocked unless you get the true ending.


5- maybe because you have an entry for Excalibur in her NP's section. Dunno.
well, all weapons that appear in the np station would not appear again in the weapons section.

6- During fate Assasin intoduces himself as Sasaki Kojiro, and Saber was about to introduce herself, and the intermision ends, i don't remember , but something similar happened in ubw, they introduced each other.
saber was about to introduce herself in fate when assassin cut her line, saying that she won't need to do so if she doesn't want to. see, saber was just being courteous because assassin introduced himself first.



1- a tall blonde foreigner wearing a suit? there is no way to not remember.

2- Or course Archer knows the sheat and all about it, it's / was in his body, "the blueprints" for it are perfect , his skills let him know all about weapons. He mentions what avalon does and all.
just an " Emiya Shirou, you have the sheath of Saber's Excalibur in you body. give that back to her, she can be HAX with it" ( and she was Rin's servant at that point) would be easy and more sensical than " you can beat Gil, do it faggot".
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Unread postby Raitei » September 29th, 2008, 4:02 am

1. well, unless there are only FEW caucasian (or other foreigner, whatever) males in japan... you wouldn't. trust me.
2. hmm, that could work. instead of projecting it himself, he could've just return it to saber. but archer know not ALL weapons. his affinity is swords, and only swords. he cannot expect to trace other things as easily as swords.
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Unread postby Shikiller » September 29th, 2008, 4:32 am

Avalon counts as a sword? anyway it should be an exception, he could just instrace it without problems like Shirou did in fate, for the perfect blueprints in his body and stuff. The thing is that he could do jack with it. I wonder if having a contract with Saber , tracing multiples Avalons and inserting them in your body would give even more HAX regeneration skills...
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Unread postby Rikh » September 29th, 2008, 10:03 pm

Shikiller wrote:Avalon counts as a sword? anyway it should be an exception, he could just instrace it without problems like Shirou did in fate, for the perfect blueprints in his body and stuff. The thing is that he could do jack with it. I wonder if having a contract with Saber , tracing multiples Avalons and inserting them in your body would give even more HAX regeneration skills...


thats where Shiro gets annoyingly theoretically godlike =P
But the prana to generate it doesn't seem exemplary cost worthy, however tracing it just once pretty much overloads his circuits. His body was built for a reality marble with swords, not the construction of a true-magic-ish sheath
So he and archer could probably do one/two each (archer might get three) if they have a very sufficient mana supply, and the massive supply of painkiller drugs
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 30th, 2008, 3:56 am

The description on Avalon is pretty vague. If it is a conceptual weapon/armor, then Shirou can trace and activate it, since its meaning will be something like "this item works like a pocket universe (the faerie land) that nullifies all magic". Projecting it will be no different from deploying Rho Aias, except maybe more mana-intensive. On the other hand, if it is a "true Noble Phantasm", as in, "this item is a piece of the faerie land that only King Arthur can enter", then it raises all kinds of messes. Shirou maybe can trace it, but there is no way he will be able to activate it. There is some evidence that points to the second theory. First one is that, Shirou's regeneration stopped in UBW when his contract with Sabre was voided. Second one is the synchronized activation of Avalon in the climactic fight in Fate route. Given this, why would you want to trace it multiple times? Trace it once and activate it in Sabre's presence, you receive the perfect defense. Tracing it multiple times only increases Shirou's pain. Plus, have you noticed that things Shirou trace don't last long? Even if he traces a bunch and put them in his body as some sort of regeneration boost, I doubt he has that much mana to prevent the world from crushing them. Remember the world hates inconsistencies, it will try to crush these with a passion.
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Unread postby Divine » September 30th, 2008, 5:34 am

Shirou only traced Avalon once at the end of Fate.

He removed the scabbard from his body before the fight and gave it to Saber. Saber activated her Avalon whereas Shirou traced a copy of it and somehow activated it. One could contend that it was because of the contract with Saber that Shirou was able to accomplish this task.

I would also point out though that Avalon does not really discriminate. While it probably can only be used to its fullest in the presence of its true master, the scabbard will still protect its current owner regardless. Shirou was saved from near death by the scabbard although this likely drained most of the mana from the scabbard. However, Issei also comments that Shirou has never been sick in which seems to indicate some lingering protection. I could guess that once aware of the presence of the scabbard, Shirou could have injected mana into it to return some of the healing power. That is of course if he had mana to spare, which I would guess that he does not.

The interesting thing about tracing Avalon is that theoretically, it wouldn't matter how much Shirou has to sacrifice in order to trace it because effectively he will be healed of all damage once Avalon is activated. As long as he doesn't die tracing, he should be fine.

I believe that the reason given for Shirou's ease of tracing Avalon at the end was that since he had already reconstructed the scabbard from scattered pieces, it was as much a part of him as his own body. (I can't remember. Been a while since I've read the end of Fate. I'm getting there since I lost my old install and am playing though it again for both fun and in anticipation of HF being released.)
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Unread postby Rikh » September 30th, 2008, 10:00 pm

Divine wrote:Shirou only traced Avalon once at the end of Fate.

He removed the scabbard from his body before the fight and gave it to Saber. Saber activated her Avalon whereas Shirou traced a copy of it and somehow activated it. One could contend that it was because of the contract with Saber that Shirou was able to accomplish this task.

I would also point out though that Avalon does not really discriminate. While it probably can only be used to its fullest in the presence of its true master, the scabbard will still protect its current owner regardless. Shirou was saved from near death by the scabbard although this likely drained most of the mana from the scabbard. However, Issei also comments that Shirou has never been sick in which seems to indicate some lingering protection. I could guess that once aware of the presence of the scabbard, Shirou could have injected mana into it to return some of the healing power. That is of course if he had mana to spare, which I would guess that he does not.

The interesting thing about tracing Avalon is that theoretically, it wouldn't matter how much Shirou has to sacrifice in order to trace it because effectively he will be healed of all damage once Avalon is activated. As long as he doesn't die tracing, he should be fine.

I believe that the reason given for Shirou's ease of tracing Avalon at the end was that since he had already reconstructed the scabbard from scattered pieces, it was as much a part of him as his own body. (I can't remember. Been a while since I've read the end of Fate. I'm getting there since I lost my old install and am playing though it again for both fun and in anticipation of HF being released.)


Well yah he does have the perfect blueprints
even though his body is built for tracing swords, if he can visualize something else (for example a blue crayon) perfectly, and has background information on it for the spawn of several years, then he would have the ability to trace it almost perfectly as well

Avalon also doesnt truly require saber for an effect. Even though he has never been sick/etc before, its also a fact that
Shiro was given avalon by kiritsugu to prevent him from dying. That being said, this is well after saber had disappeared, and how it can be used by another to give a person outstanding regeneration abilities... The best thing to be said about it is that it reuqires prana inside of it for it to be activated. He traced avalon against Gilgamesh in a fight, and its abilities were used. Saber upon seeing it used, went in and combined it with excalibur to excali-pwn goldie.


That being said... Saber's NP are all h4x NP... nuff said... Why on earth does Arthur have so many more powerful abilities than Hercule's, heroes from the future, magicians of greek times, irish battle warriors, and fictional godlike swordfighters???
I think somebody had an arthurian fetish while writing fate, nuff said

Although i am sure shiro could trace more than one, however the effect is so incredibly strong that it might be nearly useless to do so, as one avalon has the ability alone to negate any attack and heal almost any wound...
However archer,shiro, and saber using them constantly in the grail war would totally re-define the word h4x...
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Unread postby Divine » September 30th, 2008, 11:35 pm

Well, he wasn't given avalon. Avalon was fused with his body which may have had a different effect than say simply owning it in it's true form. I don't think Shirou's father (I really can't spell his name.) would have been able to remove the scabbard from his body so it is likely that he kept it intact during the 4th war. That suggests that having the scabbard and having it infused with your body has two wholly different effects since if the scabbard could have saved Shirou's life without having to sacrifice such a powerful noble phantasm, it is likely that Shirou's father would have taken that route if for no other reason than to be able to use it on other people.

Well, King Arthur himself was a hax character in mythology. Disregarding the fact that (s)he is one of the most well known figures in mythology, he accomplished probably more than most other mythological characters save Hercules. (Invisible air was probably made so that they could reveal Saber's true identity later. I mean... Golden Holy Sword... How many of those are floating around?) Hercules can't use any of his other Noble Phantasms since he doesn't have any consciousness of his own.

Haha. Yeah.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » October 1st, 2008, 4:42 am

This is kind of contradictory, because I am pretty sure Shirou in the UBW route mentioned that his wounds were not rapidly healing anymore after Caster broke the contract. Also, remember at the beginning of the story, Shirou mentioned that he had a wound on his shoulder, which took like half a year to heal (that is why Sakura is helping out). So, from these pieces of information, I assume that the "implanting Avalon to save Shirou" part was a one-shot deal, Kiritsugu must have done something unusual (I have no clue as to what this is). The rapid regeneration effect mostly likely was initiated in response to Sabre's summoning.
Also, I am not too certain about the activating Avalon = full regeneration of the caster theory. There is nowhere in Avalon's description about healing. It is essentially a barrier that blocks/neutralizes all forms of attack. Even if the regeneration effect still remains, it is still very slow. Therefore, Avalon is not the "I am invincible" button for an average magus like Shirou. It is possible for him to over-exert himself doing so.
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Unread postby Divine » October 1st, 2008, 7:20 am

True, which is why I think that implanting the scabbard was a one time deal with lingering effects.

Well, both Saber and Shirou were on the verge of defeat when they activated Avalon so I assumed that Avalon had something to do with their miraculous recoveries.

Just started playing UBW again and I noticed something again that always bothered me.

On the 7th day, Rin keeps mentioning using a Command Spell. If my count is correct, she used one to bind Archer to all of her commands in the prologue and then another to protect Shirou. If she had used her last Command spell to summon Archer during the Bloodfort ended Archer's contract?
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Unread postby Rikh » October 1st, 2008, 10:20 pm

Divine wrote:True, which is why I think that implanting the scabbard was a one time deal with lingering effects.

Well, both Saber and Shirou were on the verge of defeat when they activated Avalon so I assumed that Avalon had something to do with their miraculous recoveries.

Just started playing UBW again and I noticed something again that always bothered me.

On the 7th day, Rin keeps mentioning using a Command Spell. If my count is correct, she used one to bind Archer to all of her commands in the prologue and then another to protect Shirou. If she had used her last Command spell to summon Archer during the Bloodfort ended Archer's contract?


basically she would summon archer, whom would appear, kill shiro, defeat rider, and have fun sword spamming everywhere he wants before he disappears
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Unread postby Divine » October 2nd, 2008, 12:36 am

Sounds like a mistake only Rin would make.
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Unread postby boingman » October 26th, 2008, 1:04 am

Shikiller wrote:1-good question. Rin should have remembered Gil, but he was just asking for directions, she remembering him wouldn't change anything.


True, but nevertheless weird that she didn't mention any of it.

2- Archer knows about Avalon, he mentions " the sheath" during his fight with Shirou. He could have tell Shirou about it when he becomes "good" again...
Saber is the one who realizes about the possibility of the sheath being in Shirou's body during fate, she just didn't during UBW.

3- yes you can, i actually did get the good end before the true one. just pick saber over Rin in every chance, excepting the bad end when Kuzuki kills Rin.

4- There is no way to survive if you go to the church at that point. You can choose not to go if you have enough Rin points. If you don't, you go there without a choice.

5- maybe because you have an entry for Excalibur in her NP's section. Dunno.

6- During fate Assasin intoduces himself as Sasaki Kojiro, and Saber was about to introduce herself, and the intermision ends, i don't remember , but something similar happened in ubw, they introduced each other.

the HF question is more complex than that, the answer is "no".


Thanks (also to Raitei) for the answers. And for the HF question, guess I'll wait and see. :)
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Unread postby Belzera » October 26th, 2008, 1:08 am

boingman wrote:
Shikiller wrote:1-good question. Rin should have remembered Gil, but he was just asking for directions, she remembering him wouldn't change anything.


True, but nevertheless weird that she didn't mention any of it.


Frankly I forgot all about him until I started UBW seriously it was a case of where have i seen him before...
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