Unlimited Blade Works discussion(NOT THE PATCH)(spoiler)

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Infoceptor
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Unread post by Infoceptor » April 6th, 2008, 5:23 pm

I absolutely loved how UBW ended, jumping back to the climax of the story just when you thought it was over. When i finished it for the first time, i still felt a bit confused over the whole ordeal, so Answer coming out from nowhere really, really surprised me in a good way. The feeling it left me with was perfect and those last few lines were just pure love:
► Show Spoiler
The tone is just so deliciously neutral, depressing and somehow, uplifting at the same time; i guess bittersweet would be the correct word. No storybook ending here. I mean, thats really life isn't it? We walk on.

Catastrophe
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Unread post by Catastrophe » April 8th, 2008, 3:07 am

dont know if ths has been asked b4, and is a mostly random question.

what was that void that appeared from gil?
(dont answer if spoiler)
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Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » April 8th, 2008, 3:43 am

Catastrophe wrote:dont know if ths has been asked b4, and is a mostly random question.

what was that void that appeared from gil?
(dont answer if spoiler)
short answer : grail content. gil's been immensed in the grail's corrupted content, so when the grail's destroyed... that's what happens. long answer... someone else explain plz :P
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Brizzle
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Unread post by Brizzle » April 8th, 2008, 4:14 am

It's pretty much the same as what Rin had been crawling over in the previous scene.

It is the corrupting entity that is inside the Grail.
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Kansho
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Unread post by Kansho » April 8th, 2008, 10:41 am

That's the void, the Grail. The Grail need a Master/Vessel.

As Rin said the Grail is like a Servant, so he needs a "Master". That's why Gil said: "Idiot. Does he not know that a Servant like it/him cannot be the core?!" or something along the lines. Gil is connected to the Grail as 10 years ago, the black mud swallow him.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by tealShade » April 8th, 2008, 6:54 pm

Well I dont know but I wonder what Archer true identity was?

WingZero
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Unread post by WingZero » April 8th, 2008, 7:47 pm

^ I lol'd.

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » April 8th, 2008, 10:14 pm

tealShade wrote:Well I dont know but I wonder what Archer true identity was?
april fool joke!!! dude, have you read f/sn, after all? or watch the anime? it's kinda obvious who archer is. only 5 minutes needed to guess :P
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

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Unread post by potaatti » April 10th, 2008, 6:20 pm

Kansho wrote:Yeah, but it's only that, fanservice. That didn't make a ending good. Saber is throwing away all her duty as a king without any real reason (or a stupid "unrelated to her" one). She even have more reasons to stay in the present in Fate. Good End is totally OOC.

It's a harem end, that's all. Without meaning or something close.
Duties as a king? What duties she actually has left, she is dying and isn't going to do anything but die once she goes back. It's not like she's leaving her kingdom to hang around with her friends. Really, there's no reason not to stay. :?

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Unread post by Brizzle » April 10th, 2008, 6:33 pm

Saber stays under the pretense of wanting to find an answer to her doubts (which she does achieve in Fate).

I'm just going to flat out admit that I liked the Good End. =P
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Unread post by Kansho » April 10th, 2008, 6:37 pm

potaatti wrote:
Kansho wrote:Yeah, but it's only that, fanservice. That didn't make a ending good. Saber is throwing away all her duty as a king without any real reason (or a stupid "unrelated to her" one). She even have more reasons to stay in the present in Fate. Good End is totally OOC.

It's a harem end, that's all. Without meaning or something close.
Duties as a king? What duties she actually has left, she is dying and isn't going to do anything but die once she goes back. It's not like she's leaving her kingdom to hang around with her friends. Really, there's no reason not to stay. :?
Cough cough, she "fulfill her duty" in Fate, as she says. That means, "die as a king". That thing that she didn't do in UBW's Good End.

I know that Fate True End and UBW Good End are different situations, but still...
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

potaatti
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Unread post by potaatti » April 10th, 2008, 6:53 pm

Kansho wrote:Cough cough, she "fulfill her duty" in Fate, as she says. That means, "die as a king". That thing that she didn't do in UBW's Good End.

I know that Fate True End and UBW Good End are different situations, but still...
Well, I don't see dying as a king part of her duties, it's not like it's going to help or affect her people in any way. And she's going to do even that eventually, no matter if she hangs out in the modern Earth two weeks or friggin' two centuries.

But I guess we have to agree to disagree. :)

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Unread post by Kansho » April 10th, 2008, 7:00 pm

Then you didn't get the meaning of Fate True End.

She didn't stay with Shirou because she have to "fulfill her duty". That means, go forward and accept her actions. That means, die in Camlann as king Arthur. That's what she is doing destroying the Lesser Grail, that's why she is doing breaking her contrack with the "World".

Same reason why Shirou must continue to forward as well. He have his own path instead of her's.

The sense of UBW Good End depends if Saber break his contract with the world or not. If not, makes some sense (find a answer blabla). If she break it, that's totally OOC and only fanservice. The thing is that never is really specified.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

potaatti
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Unread post by potaatti » April 10th, 2008, 7:26 pm

I thought that accepting her actions simply was that she doesn't try to change her past anymore, and accepts the choices she has made. But I don't get why accepting her actions would mean her returning to Camlann. Nor do I get why it is part of her duties as a king to die in Camlann. :?

Basically, I'm thinking it along these lines: She has finally accepted her actions and her being the former king of britain, and isn't trying to change the choices she has made anymore. Now that her duties are over, she can finally let go of the responsibilities of the king, and she decides to live a second life in the modern world.



Or something like that. I mean, wasn't the reason she tried to change the past that she thought that she was a terrible king and that a more proper one would have been found if she had kept herself from messing up the procedure of choosing the king, and not because of personal wishes to have a nicer life?

WingZero
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Unread post by WingZero » April 10th, 2008, 8:05 pm

@ Saber's contract:

The premise of the contract was obtaining the holy grail (and by extension changing her past). When she no longer wants the grail, contract is broken. If contract is broken, she is no longer "frozen in time", and sent back to Camlann in the moment right before her death.

Conclusion: If she does not try to change her past anymore -> contract breaks -> she dies

@ UBW Good end:

I agree with Kansho. It doesn't make sense if the contract broke. That means:

a. She is still trying to change the past via alternate means
b. The premise of the contract was something else entirely
c. Her contract with Rin can keep her in the modern world even if contract with the World is absolved (She was never dragged back to Camlann, but was unfrozen in time)

As said, she is trying to find an answer to her doubts, which makes a very viable. C is also possible, although fringes dangerously close to a time paradox (that is, for her to exist in the present under Rin's contract without dying as King)

@
But I don't get why accepting her actions would mean her returning to Camlann.
Taking it out of context to generalize:

Actions have consequences. Accepting your actions means you accept the consequences. That's why Saber has to go back: to see things through to the end.

It's not so much "duty of the king" as it is "duty as human".

Her whole point of trying to change the past was because she rejects the consequences ("Ruin"). After the Grail war, she learnt to accept it -> she's acknowledging BOTH actions and consequences as they are, which is why she goes back.

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Unread post by Kansho » April 10th, 2008, 8:11 pm

@ pottati -
... Then why she didn't stay? Read again the "Gold Separation" scene, because it says clearly. "Saber, please fulfill your role". She didn't want to stay, she have a different path than him, even if that path leads to death. Or in other way, Saber - Girl, want to stay, but Saber - King not. When she pulled off the sword in the stone, she became a king and nothing else as she inherited a duty. So she must fulfill it. There's already said dozens of times in the route.

She never give up her duty in Fate. Read it again, please, because seem that you didn't get it at all. That's what Shirou want, but he can't force her to do that, as he too have a "duty to fulfill" and he wants to protect that beautiful duty that Saber have. The Saber that he loves is the Saber that fights, the Saber that have an ought as a king, and the Saber who have a beautiful dream. He only learned to Saber that she can't redo the past, but Shirou can't say her to stay with him because he want to preserve "that" Saber. Begging her to stay is like destroy her pride as a king, that's why Shirou didn't do it.

Saber "make peace with her past", but she never give up her duty. She learned that hers path never was wrong, even if all of that leaded to the destruction of the kingdom. The thing is, "Didn't happen as you desired? That's really a reason to redo the past? No, past can't be changed, you must continue until the end".

That's the whole Fate route theme.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by Dante Obscuri » April 11th, 2008, 4:28 am

I also heavily doubt Shirō would be able to keep her. Just look how much Ilya suffered while trying to keep Heracles before the Grail was summoned.

Anyway, the reason why Saber wanted to go back was the same reason why Archer declined Rin's proposal for him to remain: With everything being said and done, the only thing left for them to do was to face the consequences of their actions. That happens to be one of the themes of F/sn. Want to go down a certain path? Well then, see it to the very end, and have no regrets.

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Unread post by Kansho » April 11th, 2008, 11:10 am

Dante Obscuri wrote:That happens to be one of the themes of F/sn. Want to go down a certain path? Well then, see it to the very end, and have no regrets.
"Fight against oneself".

Yeah, is a recurrent theme in all the game. Principal thematic.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by tealShade » April 11th, 2008, 12:51 pm

Raitei wrote:
tealShade wrote:Well I dont know but I wonder what Archer true identity was?
april fool joke!!! dude, have you read f/sn, after all? or watch the anime? it's kinda obvious who archer is. only 5 minutes needed to guess :P
Well I saw anime, but don't tell me, that Archer is Shiro from future. It's crazy thing, servants are heroes from the past, aren't they.

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Unread post by Kansho » April 11th, 2008, 1:11 pm

tealShade wrote:
Raitei wrote:
tealShade wrote:Well I dont know but I wonder what Archer true identity was?
april fool joke!!! dude, have you read f/sn, after all? or watch the anime? it's kinda obvious who archer is. only 5 minutes needed to guess :P
Well I saw anime, but don't tell me, that Archer is Shiro from future. It's crazy thing, servants are heroes from the past, aren't they.
... Servants = heroes from the past isn't true. At least that's not true in one type of heroic spirit. Read UBW route.
Last edited by Kansho on April 11th, 2008, 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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