Unlimited Blade Works discussion(NOT THE PATCH)(spoiler)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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Brizzle
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Unread post by Brizzle » March 19th, 2008, 1:26 am

Unfortunately for Archer, Darkeyes is right. Such memories are not essential for a mindless killbot, so he will go back to being a cynical bastard with a self-destructive wish. The point is, however, that he once found peace with it, and will continue on.

...isn't it sad, Archer?

Infoceptor
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Unread post by Infoceptor » March 19th, 2008, 2:01 am

Yeah, i remember somewhere near the end, it was stated that "who was right and who was wrong" had yet to be determined. Shiro might still lose his resolve in the future and become bitter like Archer did. But i think regardless, Shiro will fair much better then Archer for a couple of reasons. One, Rin promised that she would stay with Shiro and make sure he enjoyed life. At least he would have something else to pursue, his love for Tosaka. Two, i think Heroic Emiya never confronted himself like UBW Shiro did. Archer said he was always running from himself and was probably still in denial before becoming a spirit. And three, he won't make the mistake of becoming a guardian to save people. Shiro will make his own way towards his dream.

Oh and now that i think about it, Archer really did get the shit end of the stick. I mean honestly, life doesn't get much worse from here on out. Stuck in near-infinity killing people over and over again? Sounds like hell to me. Well, at least he really did find peace once.

Forceflow
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Unread post by Forceflow » March 19th, 2008, 6:26 am

Brizzle wrote:
The scene I'm thinking of is the first Ero scene in HF.
Are we thinking of the same one?
► Show Spoiler

DarkEyes
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Unread post by DarkEyes » March 19th, 2008, 8:49 am

Infoceptor wrote:...Shiro might still lose his resolve in the future and become bitter like Archer did. But i think regardless, Shiro will fair much better then Archer...
Yeah, well Tohsaka wont be of much help when he DIES and becomes a heroic spirit and once again that shit lasts FOREVER, so no one can rly go through it all and be happy about it :? But it's not rly that sad.. I mean Archer ain't Archer if he ain't the cynical bastard that we love xD

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Unread post by goforit1 » March 19th, 2008, 9:09 am

Hiyono wrote:
DarkEyes wrote:No one could gain enough strength to stand through being a Guardian, since well.... It never freaking ends :? And I dunno if it's a bad thing, but in the end it was said that the peace Archer got was only for one summoning... So even after UBW he's still the same old Imma gonna kill myself Archer that we love xD
I took it to mean that Archer's job as a Counter Guardian yet continues, and as such, he's still bound to kill to save (as part of the never-ending war on terror imo). It's stated several times throughout that his existence has diverged from Shirou's, and as such, the events that take place will not change his personal fate.

The following is just how I understood things, (they could be totally wrong :p):
On the other hand, however, when Rin figures out Archer's identity, we learn that Heroic Spirits at home in the Throne are outside of time, and as such have knowledge of events that have happened at any point in time (which is how they know each other). Whatever knowledge they've gained per incarnation gets phoned home, and it's this global version who gets sent out each time. As such, every incarnation of Archer in any point in the timeline should be the same. Having said this, upon his summoning, he should already have had knowledge of the events of UBW, and already have reached the same conclusion. We now see what delightful paradoxes arise when you try to play around with time.

This can be resolved if we instead take it to mean that Archer purposely chose this role for Shirou's sake (which is semi-likely, since we know it wasn't done for himself), although it doesn't seem in line with the characterization given in UBW. Oh, and also if I'm totally wrong, that works too :p
I dunno, I'd kinda like to think that their reincarnations have "some" order to them. They said it's like having a bunch of books of your memories, but you don't know what order they arrived in.

So I understand it to be all across time, yet to still have *a* chronological order. So it is possible that even though he's been a guardian spirit for a long ass time, Archer hadn't experienced this particular reincarnation and time yet.

I also got the feeling that Type-Moon's universe is the type where you can change your fate. I.E. the events of UBW changed Shirou's eventual fate as a guardian spirit (from current Archer to an Archer that wouldn't give up on his ideal).

DarkEyes wrote:
Infoceptor wrote:...Shiro might still lose his resolve in the future and become bitter like Archer did. But i think regardless, Shiro will fair much better then Archer...
Yeah, well Tohsaka wont be of much help when he DIES and becomes a heroic spirit and once again that shit lasts FOREVER, so no one can rly go through it all and be happy about it :? But it's not rly that sad.. I mean Archer ain't Archer if he ain't the cynical bastard that we love xD
That's why he's got SABER! :D They obviously had connections in the past, from their exchange towards the end of UBW.
Infoceptor wrote:Oh and now that i think about it, Archer really did get the shit end of the stick. I mean honestly, life doesn't get much worse from here on out. Stuck in near-infinity banging Saber over and over again? Sounds like hell to me. Well, at least he really did find peace once.
fixed.

Brizzle
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Unread post by Brizzle » March 19th, 2008, 9:29 am

Forceflow wrote:
Brizzle wrote:
The scene I'm thinking of is the first Ero scene in HF.
Are we thinking of the same one?
► Show Spoiler
That's the one.
► Show Spoiler

goforit1
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Unread post by goforit1 » March 19th, 2008, 11:01 am

Kansho wrote:... You didn't undertstand at all Fate True End... beh, didn't matter. I pass to do this.

Did you understand that she wants to stay with Shirou "as a girl", but she have a duty to fulfill as "a king"? And the duty is the first, die in Camlann proud of his way and choices. That's what Shirou learn to her.

But I didn't want to begin any interminable discussion. That's not the place even.
I dunno, does she really have that much of a "duty" left. I thought in Fate her wish was to "redo" everything with teh Holy Grail, still trying to serve her people yes, but that's not really a duty that a King should have, it was just her selfish wish.

Given I haven't played the Fate route in a looong time, so I might be missing some details.

There's that whole go back and die thing, but as a heroic spirit I don't think that was something necessary. That was just her "end" and the fufilling of the legends, because she had no way to stay.
► Show Spoiler
Here's my take on the endings after playing both (from a different thread):
► Show Spoiler
edit: just UBW spoilers, i forgot this was the thread where we weren't marking UBW stuff, but I'm too lazy to remove the tags.

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » March 19th, 2008, 11:25 am

goforit1 wrote:I dunno, does she really have that much of a "duty" left. I thought in Fate her wish was to "redo" everything with teh Holy Grail, still trying to serve her people yes, but that's not really a duty that a King should have, it was just her selfish wish.

Given I haven't played the Fate route in a looong time, so I might be missing some details.

There's that whole go back and die thing, but as a heroic spirit I don't think that was something necessary. That was just her "end" and the fufilling of the legends, because she had no way to stay.
► Show Spoiler
let's take a look again, shall we?
Emiya Shirou wrote:
► Show Spoiler
if we look here,
► Show Spoiler
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

Forceflow
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Unread post by Forceflow » March 19th, 2008, 2:26 pm

Brizzle wrote:
Forceflow wrote:
Brizzle wrote:
The scene I'm thinking of is the first Ero scene in HF.
Are we thinking of the same one?
► Show Spoiler
That's the one.
► Show Spoiler
...............

:shock:

ohshi- now that is screwed up.

goforit1
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Unread post by goforit1 » March 19th, 2008, 6:10 pm

Raitei wrote:let's take a look again, shall we?
Emiya Shirou wrote:
► Show Spoiler
if we look here,
► Show Spoiler
Meh. Lame excuse (on Type-Moon's part), F/SN is all about choosing your own path, not being bound to some "role."

UBW spoiler:
► Show Spoiler

serialies
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Unread post by serialies » March 20th, 2008, 5:54 am

UBW > Fate except for Shirou...fate Shirou > UBW Shirou IMO

maybe not in fighting ability, but as a char

oh and @ Archer gets no redemption because of mindless...ness
-> if he ever gets summoned again with free will -> he will "remember" Shirou's look of determination -> atleast be a LITTLE bit less "fuck, i hate my life death"

course he may still want to kill Shirou, infact...in a certain 4 day loop...
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Hiyono
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Unread post by Hiyono » March 20th, 2008, 6:50 am

Raitei wrote:
goforit1 wrote:I dunno, does she really have that much of a "duty" left. I thought in Fate her wish was to "redo" everything with teh Holy Grail, still trying to serve her people yes, but that's not really a duty that a King should have, it was just her selfish wish.

Given I haven't played the Fate route in a looong time, so I might be missing some details.

There's that whole go back and die thing, but as a heroic spirit I don't think that was something necessary. That was just her "end" and the fufilling of the legends, because she had no way to stay.
► Show Spoiler
let's take a look again, shall we?
Emiya Shirou wrote:
► Show Spoiler
if we look here,
► Show Spoiler
BS. It had nothing to do with her "role." She went back to die because that's how Type-Moon wanted to end things, and it's not like she had any way to stay either. In UBW, Rin says she'll need Shirou's help to sustain Saber, and if Rin can't do it alone, there's no way Shirou could have.
'It is better to be a human dissatisfied than a pig satisfied"
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serialies
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Unread post by serialies » March 20th, 2008, 8:01 am

@Hiyono

UBW good end: Saber stayed in UBW because of what Archer did, she wanted to understand what Archer meant when he said what she was doing was a "mistake", + she wanted to protect Shirou as she didnt want him -> Archer

but if Shirou aint nice nuff to her, she wont care nuff bout him to stay, simple...
not like she plans to stay forever, in the end she WILL return to her time of death, she just chose to delay that.

+ in Fate route Shirou COULD have used the grail to keep Saber (just to name one method), not to mention it can work both ways, Rin helping Shirou maintain Saber (one way or another, doesnt necessarily mean sex, theres more ways that sex to transfer prana)

and its not like Saber would just instantly explode and disappear if Shirou wasnt around in UBW good, Rin just needs a "helping hand" every now and then.

not to mention that Rin also used Saber's "oh noes, to much prana drain" as an excuse to have mad sex a continued intimate relationship with Shirou.
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Ciel
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Unread post by Ciel » March 20th, 2008, 12:06 pm

There's one thing i feel Fate was definitely better at than UBW though.
► Show Spoiler

DarkEyes
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Unread post by DarkEyes » March 20th, 2008, 12:32 pm

Yeah, but in Fate she's all angsty and stuff... Besides, in UBW u get more backstory on Ilya so it balances =p

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Unread post by AddleBoy » March 20th, 2008, 7:49 pm

serialies wrote: + in Fate route Shirou COULD have used the grail to keep Saber (just to name one method), not to mention it can work both ways, Rin helping Shirou maintain Saber (one way or another, doesnt necessarily mean sex, theres more ways that sex to transfer prana)

and its not like Saber would just instantly explode and disappear if Shirou wasnt around in UBW good, Rin just needs a "helping hand" every now and then.

not to mention that Rin also used Saber's "oh noes, to much prana drain" as an excuse to have mad sex a continued intimate relationship with Shirou.
Wouldn't making Saber drink the black curse from the Holy Grail make her go crazy?

And in terms of Shirou maintaining Saber, wasn't the flow of prana from Shirou to Saber non-existent? Also, wouldn't any other method of transferring prana be either very difficult or nearly impossible for Shirou, since he's not a proper magus?

And on that note, since the Realta Nua version of Fate/Stay Night doesn't have sex scenes, how do they transfer prana at those parts?

Brizzle
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Unread post by Brizzle » March 20th, 2008, 8:34 pm

AddleBoy wrote:And on that note, since the Realta Nua version of Fate/Stay Night doesn't have sex scenes, how do they transfer prana at those parts?
In Fate, it has the CG dragon scene like that shown in the Anime. Basically, it's Shiro transferring some of his circuits directly to Saber, creating a prana flow.

In UBW, Rin and Shiro form a contract without the sex part. It's another weird CG scene but with fish instead of dragons. The result is the same; a flow of prana between them.

For some odd reason, I find the pic strangely erotic.
► Show Spoiler

DarkEyes
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Unread post by DarkEyes » March 20th, 2008, 8:45 pm

And what about HF? xD

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Unread post by Kansho » March 20th, 2008, 8:55 pm

DarkEyes wrote:And what about HF? xD
► Show Spoiler
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

DiMaggio
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Unread post by DiMaggio » March 20th, 2008, 9:26 pm

Anyone here felt like HF's pointless now after finishing UBW?
► Show Spoiler
But.... then again, they decided to throw this fucking ridiculous curveball:
► Show Spoiler
More pointless shit:
► Show Spoiler
However, having not played HF yet, all of my ramblings can be easily shot down, heh. So take it with tons of salt.

Fuck.

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