to leak or not to leak, that's the question

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

Moderator: Staffers

will(did) you download the leaked UBW patch?

No, I fully respect MM's work and don't have an inmediate NEED for it.
41
40%
No, i'll wait for it, but i admit Message is really taking his time to finish the installer.
35
34%
Yes, im desperate to get the patch, whichever the mean.
17
17%
Yes, screw MM, you should have released something some months ago!
9
9%
 
Total votes: 102

Kjoery
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Unread post by Kjoery » March 11th, 2008, 7:00 pm

Superflonic wrote:
Kjoery wrote:
Superflonic wrote:But, please explain one thing to me, why is it that Message gets all the blame?
Sure.

Proofreading finished about 2~4 months ago. All that was left was the installer. There is one person working on the installer.

Now that you have those three facts, read my above posts.
Yeah, I read all of them, I already did before posting, actually.
But, was he responsible for releasing the beta?
He was the cause of the leak, yes. He did not leak the file, however.

Atriel
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Unread post by Atriel » March 11th, 2008, 8:53 pm

I have waited like 10 months since i first checked UBW status, what's another 2-3 months :lol:

So yeah, i'll wait. I prefer QUALITY over speed on something like this.

Cirno
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Unread post by Cirno » March 11th, 2008, 8:56 pm

Atriel wrote:. I prefer QUALITY
If you prefer QUALITY, you should probably download the beta instead of the final release.

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Unread post by Gelmax » March 11th, 2008, 9:09 pm

Catastrophe wrote:I beg not, if you have EVER worked on a team you should know how the decisions are taken, if you are against the way message is doing things, then you are against the decision the team took as a whole.
Wait, you mean a translation team? Because that's pretty much exactly opposite my experiences in such teams, which tend to work as follows: "People decide things on their own, and occasionally bother to ask the rest of the team before they make those decisions if those decisions affect the rest of the team in some way; additionally (and most applicable to this situation), if someone decides to do something against the wishes of the group or just stop doing satisfactory group, and that person is the only member of the group who does that particular job, then the rest of the group can't do a thing about it unless they're willing to replace the one who doesn't cooperate".
Superflonic wrote:Yeah, that's pretty much the case.
But, please explain one thing to me, why is it that Message gets all the blame?
I have yet to see a concrete explaination for it. Was he responsible for releasing that 'beta' patch? And if so, why do the rest of the MM crew object so much. Because it isn't the high quality we are used to?
Please clear things up for me :)
Message gets all the blame because he was the one responsible for working on the installer, and therefore it's his fault that the installer took so long.

Catastrophe
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Unread post by Catastrophe » March 11th, 2008, 9:26 pm

Gelmax wrote:
Catastrophe wrote:I beg not, if you have EVER worked on a team you should know how the decisions are taken, if you are against the way message is doing things, then you are against the decision the team took as a whole.
Wait, you mean a translation team? Because that's pretty much exactly opposite my experiences in such teams, which tend to work as follows: "People decide things on their own, and occasionally bother to ask the rest of the team before they make those decisions if those decisions affect the rest of the team in some way; additionally (and most applicable to this situation), if someone decides to do something against the wishes of the group or just stop doing satisfactory group, and that person is the only member of the group who does that particular job, then the rest of the group can't do a thing about it unless they're willing to replace the one who doesn't cooperate".
well, its true im talking about general working groups, and i dont know the specific of a translation group; but i think that is very dependent on the situation that is presenting.

mere speculation though and we would need a deep explanation on how things work back there by the staff directly, dont wanna hear(read) anyone claiming to know how the guys do their job.
"We want a game that's going to chop us the second we screw around, or just flatten us at its whim... until we finally beat it. They demand more of us, and we rise to the occasion because we're that good. And that feels good. And that's why we game."
Rus McLaughlin, IGN

Gelmax
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Unread post by Gelmax » March 11th, 2008, 9:51 pm

No, it's pretty much a common property of internet-formed groups. If Message is the only one who knows how to do an installer, then the rest of the group has to take his word for it when he says "just a few more days", and if he turns out to be lying or doing a terrible job, there's nothing they can do about it except threaten to replace him (and risk losing all that supposed progress) or actually replace him (again, a bad choice if he turns out to actually be almost done).

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Unread post by Dr Doujin » March 11th, 2008, 10:43 pm

Yes, I am playing UBW and enjoying every minute of it. Patience is one thing, but willing accepting being toyed is another. I look forward to the full release when it comes out, and will be supporting MM just the same as I have before.

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Unread post by shadow_Hiei » March 11th, 2008, 10:45 pm

Where's the "I'm waiting for HF" option?

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Unread post by zoop » March 12th, 2008, 1:24 am

I'm waiting - call me a wonky douchebag, but I respect MirrorMoon's work entirely too much to, in effect, cockslap them in the face by supporting some worthless fuck's decision to shit all over the trust he was given with the beta and leak it before it was ready for distribution. I have firsthand experience with having a project that I've spent quite a bit of work on leaked before it was ready to be released to the public, and know that it is not a good feeling.

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Unread post by Enerccio » March 12th, 2008, 1:59 am

zoop wrote:I'm waiting - call me a wonky douchebag, but I respect MirrorMoon's work entirely too much to, in effect, cockslap them in the face by supporting some worthless fuck's decision to shit all over the trust he was given with the beta and leak it before it was ready for distribution. I have firsthand experience with having a project that I've spent quite a bit of work on leaked before it was ready to be released to the public, and know that it is not a good feeling.
orz-L

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Unread post by zoop » March 12th, 2008, 2:11 am

Enerccio wrote:orz-L
Because wanting to show support for the people who waste huge amounts of their own free time so that we can play these games in English is a very terrible thing, aye? Though that's not to say that I've enjoyed waiting this long for a bloody installer, of all things.

On that note, parallel development is a good thing, and hopefully something that MM will look at for future releases. ;)

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Unread post by drizzt_rocks » March 12th, 2008, 2:41 am

Where's the "mm is still awesome but just message took waaay too long for an installer for me to not take the leaked version" option?

Seriously the major fanbase are not complete "n00bs" and can apply the patch themselves and not need an installer >_> Especially when the last one had no problems EVEN in vista which is supposedly the cause for the long delays. The thing was THE INSTALLER DIDNT NEED TO BE PERFECT. You could have released a simple patch and then continued on making your perfect installer and everyone would have been happy.

But this doesnt mean I dont respect TJ and mm. You guys have done alot and I cant thank you enough for what you have offered us. I am sad that this chapter occured and hopefully you wont make any rash decisions and will simply move on from this incident.

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Unread post by Gelmax » March 12th, 2008, 5:20 am

zoop wrote:I'm waiting - call me a wonky douchebag, but I respect MirrorMoon's work entirely too much to, in effect, cockslap them in the face by supporting some worthless fuck's decision to shit all over the trust he was given with the beta and leak it before it was ready for distribution. I have firsthand experience with having a project that I've spent quite a bit of work on leaked before it was ready to be released to the public, and know that it is not a good feeling.
The project WAS ready to be released to the public. The ENTIRE THING was done. The only thing that wasn't finished, the sole problem holding it back, was the installer, which isn't a notable part of the project and (as this leak showed) isn't even an essential one. Sure, the stuff that got leaked wasn't the ready-for-release stuff...but that's Message's fault, not Ascalon's or Anon's. I prefer to work with groups that fast-track their releases and thus don't have much experience with my work, but if I were in TakaJun's position, and couldn't replace Message or find some way to get him to actually do his damn job, I might just have leaked something myself in order to get my already-completed work past the roadblocks and into the hands of the internet itself.

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Unread post by zoop » March 12th, 2008, 5:43 am

Gelmax wrote:Sure, the stuff that got leaked wasn't the ready-for-release stuff...but that's Message's fault, not Ascalon's or Anon's
I'm not quite able to comprehend this line of thought. I can understand people getting pissy in regard to Message (and I'd be lying if I said that I haven't been fairly annoyed with the amazingly long wait myself) and all that, but --- the person who broke the entire staff of MirrorMoon's trust is not at fault here at all? Are you serious?

So far as I'm concerned, he isn't some CHAMPION OF TEH INTARWEBZ, he's an asshole who did nothing but betray people's trust and said "FUCK YALL, LULZ" if you think that's worthy of praise then I'm honestly at a loss.

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Unread post by Cirno » March 12th, 2008, 6:51 am

zoop wrote:
Gelmax wrote:Sure, the stuff that got leaked wasn't the ready-for-release stuff...but that's Message's fault, not Ascalon's or Anon's
I'm not quite able to comprehend this line of thought. I can understand people getting pissy in regard to Message (and I'd be lying if I said that I haven't been fairly annoyed with the amazingly long wait myself) and all that, but --- the person who broke the entire staff of MirrorMoon's trust is not at fault here at all? Are you serious?

So far as I'm concerned, he isn't some CHAMPION OF TEH INTARWEBZ, he's an asshole who did nothing but betray people's trust and said "FUCK YALL, LULZ" if you think that's worthy of praise then I'm honestly at a loss.
Lets say a medicine company held off releasing a cure for cancer because the cardboard packaging box designer didn't think his box was snazzy enough for the cancer cure. Then someone who has the cancer cure, but not the snazzy cardboard packaging releases it to the world - CURING MILLIONS OF CANCER.

What you are saying is that CURING MILLIONS OF CANCER is a bad thing.

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Unread post by Superflonic » March 12th, 2008, 6:53 am

Cirno wrote: Lets say a medicine company held off releasing a cure for cancer because the cardboard packaging box designer didn't think his box was snazzy enough for the cancer cure. Then someone who has the cancer cure, but not the snazzy cardboard packaging releases it to the world - CURING MILLIONS OF CANCER.

What you are saying is that CURING MILLIONS OF CANCER is a bad thing.
I like the fact that you compare a game translation for and a cure for cancer.
But yeah, I understand what you mean, it's just that i wanted to point that out :)
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Unread post by mir » March 12th, 2008, 7:00 am

I'm waiting on Heaven's Feel. With a bit of luck, I think the installer and HF might just get done around the same time :D

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Unread post by Cirith » March 12th, 2008, 1:29 pm

Cirno wrote:
zoop wrote:
Gelmax wrote:Sure, the stuff that got leaked wasn't the ready-for-release stuff...but that's Message's fault, not Ascalon's or Anon's
I'm not quite able to comprehend this line of thought. I can understand people getting pissy in regard to Message (and I'd be lying if I said that I haven't been fairly annoyed with the amazingly long wait myself) and all that, but --- the person who broke the entire staff of MirrorMoon's trust is not at fault here at all? Are you serious?

So far as I'm concerned, he isn't some CHAMPION OF TEH INTARWEBZ, he's an asshole who did nothing but betray people's trust and said "FUCK YALL, LULZ" if you think that's worthy of praise then I'm honestly at a loss.
Lets say a medicine company held off releasing a cure for cancer because the cardboard packaging box designer didn't think his box was snazzy enough for the cancer cure. Then someone who has the cancer cure, but not the snazzy cardboard packaging releases it to the world - CURING MILLIONS OF CANCER.

What you are saying is that CURING MILLIONS OF CANCER is a bad thing.
Your logic is imperfekt because there is a difference. If you hold back the cancer medicine, some people will die before they get it, also you have to treat cancer as soon as possible. =>Time is important
But you won`t die before the official patch comes out and the game will provide you with as much fun when you play it today, as it will give you in 10 years when the installer is ready. =>Time doesn`t matter

PS: Please excuse my poor english.

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Unread post by RikkuBan » March 12th, 2008, 2:17 pm

I honestly think comparing a medicine for a disease killing thousands cant be compared to a GAME.

It's a game, people! It's not the end of the world, it's not like you need to have it, it's not like mirrormoon owes us anything, it's not like we can make demands.

Just be darn patient! Go play another game, or, god forbid, do something productive with your time!
Last edited by RikkuBan on March 12th, 2008, 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cirno
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Unread post by Cirno » March 12th, 2008, 3:13 pm

To summarise:

Cancer was not cured because the ubw installer took too long.

I think thats all that needs to be said.

Mods you can close this now.

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