Leak

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Kiraiya
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Unread post by Kiraiya » March 12th, 2008, 6:14 am

Raven wrote:
Kiraiya wrote: I agree. Just because Message fucked up doesnt mean were saying all of MM fucked up. Ravens logic borders on stereotypical values. If theres a group of guys in front of a store, one of them decides to do some dumb shit, goes inside and holds the store up, By raven logic we can assume that the whole group of them fucked up because individuality doesnt mean shit if your part of a group. Just because we hate the guy that held up the store( or wasted time on a useless installer in this case) doesnt mean we wont hang out with the other guys in that group. I respect individuals not groups. People are different and therefore should be as individuals that are part of a group not as a group as one being.
This I can response to. I don't think your analogy and example are the same as what I said, quoting myself:
my resect is to mirror-moon, and ontil the group itself as a whole of all its member, decide that it's the time for us to use the patch, I will wait. Maybe for a little, maybe for a long while, maybe they'll never release it. Of course I have my own wishful thinking and opinion on the matter, but my principal dictate that I'll not going to use it without their conscent.
and
I will always treat mirror-moon as a whole and entiety of its members. Any internal discussion, good or bad, and problem sthey may have is for them to decide and handle, I have no right neither the intention to comment or butt in. Any final decision that they reach as a group is good enough for me unless I'm a part of the team.
I thought I was clear, but in case I was not, here is some further explanation.

Different members in a group will always have different way of doing things and they're not agreeing on everything. It's quite common for a member suggest something, the other will just flatly say no. However, the reason a group can work together is because in the end, they all settle down for a mutal agreement that will be the group statement to the public, and it's that statement that I will respect. Takajun may suggest an early release, message suggested otherwise, and I doubt it's just between them. In the end, mirror moon itself, as a single entity, gave out a statement that the patch is not ready, then to me, it's not ready.

I think what I said was twisted around a little bit by the viewers, I never said anything about who or what about individual respect, anyone can have their own opinion on different individual. However, when I say a group, I'm talking about the decision that the group had made as a single entity. That's the final statement, and that's what I will respect, if you leak it, that means you disrespect not just message's intention, but the group's intention itself as a whole.

To put it short:

- When I say I won't use the leak, it's not because message said so. I say I won't use the leak because mirror moon said it is not ready.

to put it in an alternative scenario:

- Hypothecially a patch is released by mirron moon itself officially, however message and hell, even if it's Takajun himself come to the forum and say they're not happy with the release and it should be better and blah blah blah ... guess what, I would still use the patch. Simply because despite some personal differences, if mirror moon released a patch, it's a signal to me that "I'm ready, you can use me." Like I said, internal disagreement and problem is left to (and should be left to) the group itself to handle. Anything that is said under the name mirror moon is the final verdict.
I guess I understand your views and Ill respect them. Cant say about anyone else though.

And one more thing; since it WAS an internal leak that means that one of the team was frustrated with messages progress. Since message was the release engineer all of the details of the release are on him. Therefore even if the entire team is pissed, they cant/dont want to replace him and therefore message has the final say in when the project is finished not MM necessarily. Just because it was posted on the site doesnt mean that that is really what the teams wants it is possible that they are forced to say that because they have no other choice. And dont see this as a counter argument. I am simply stating MM might not have had a choice as a whole on the matter and therefore their decision to to post that the installer is not ready was not really what the whole team wanted, just one guy who saw fit to take his sweet time.
"Onii-chan Ich Liebe Dich!!!!!!!!!!!!"-German lolies ; Accept no Substitutes...

randomanon?
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Unread post by randomanon? » March 12th, 2008, 6:30 am

Usually this kind of thread would be locked for flaming right?

Just you wait, Message will ascend through the flames of Anon to place the finished installer, along with Taka's perfected script, on the site. You will download it. You will play it. You will wallow in agony at the hate you displayed to a man who made such an installer. You will know Message's pain and the truly manly tears he has cried while enduring the Abuse of anon and others. Sacrificing his reputation for the ultimate installer. REPENT, FOR MESSAGE'S REPUTATION DIED FOR YOUR SINS!!! :shock:

:edit: at least that's how it should work Amiright?

ScorchingFalcon
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Unread post by ScorchingFalcon » March 12th, 2008, 6:53 am

After lurking this place since early November I finally decided to create an account here.

The only thing I want to say is I am very grateful of MM's hard work in translatinfg FSN. I went here after I found out that the anime I watched was acctually an adaptation of a game and I'm very surprised that somebody is translating it. I was overjoyed. And thus I ask everybody to remember why are we here in the first place? IS it just to flame the ones who has been trying to help us? I know that some people are frustated by Message's slowness in building the installer - I waited for THAT long too - but then again, must this board degenerate into a flaming and trolling zone like this?

(Heck, what incoherent paragraph I've written... pardon my poor english)

Raven
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Unread post by Raven » March 12th, 2008, 6:57 am

Kiraiya wrote:Just because it was posted on the site doesnt mean that that is really what the teams wants it is possible that they are forced to say that because they have no other choice. And dont see this as a counter argument. I am simply stating MM might not have had a choice as a whole on the matter and therefore their decision to to post that the installer is not ready was not really what the whole team wanted, just one guy who saw fit to take his sweet time.
That's exactly why I said internal disagreement should be left to the team itself to handle. I seriously doubt there is no other people inside mirror moon who can not make a simple patch, in fact I think I have a few candidate from the top of my head. Either they had some discussion, the team perceived the benefit, or message manage to convince them into it, all said and done the team's final decision still represents its will as a whole.

Disclaimer: speaking from experience, pure conjecture on my part and by no mean relate to what may actually happen:

I don't know, the worst thing coming out from this is probably it's going to effect the team structure integrity. Like I said, disagreement between team members is the norm and it's impossible to avoid. However most of the time a team will always hold its image together publicly. Two team members can really vent heat at each other, but they'll never show that and usually we wont have a clue. However, if things got leak out and especially when there is a strong side forming like right now, it can seriously make a lot of damage. Especially if this is truly an internal leak, then things can get really ugly.

Let me tell you this, I think the whole late installer is an issue that everyone is aware of, including myself. However, if things happened normally, then usually the disagreements within the team will be settle with ... say, a post motem after release, and people will be more open to thing like yes, we should do this, change that, make next time better ...etc... in a civilize manner. However, if a mess like this happen, then those internal disagreement can explode and escalate to blame fest (trust me, fans are not the only one capable of doing that) between members with no winner, not message, not Taka, and neither whoever leak the stuffs. Like I said, it damage the intergerity of the team structure.

At least, that's what happened to my team (worked on a NWN project). Frankly, the guys I worked with were all decent guys but we were no saint. In scale, we are much more amateur and probably less enthusiastic then mirror moon so I hope this will be something they'll get over better then us, however I seriously doubt it will go away without some kind of storm.

I find it funny when the people who ditching message for his super ego with line like "we did this to ******* that faggot" ...etc... well now, are you sure your ego is any smaller then his? :wink:

But I doubt these thought even crossed people's mind.

NotMassage
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Unread post by NotMassage » March 12th, 2008, 7:40 am

EDIT: This is not Message.
► Show Spoiler

Enerccio
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Unread post by Enerccio » March 12th, 2008, 7:49 am

Massage wrote:Now you're just sucking off Message's cock. :?
lol wut?
your avatar looks funny

Animatus
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Unread post by Animatus » March 12th, 2008, 8:46 am

randomanon? wrote:Usually this kind of thread would be locked for flaming right?

Just you wait, Message will ascend through the flames of Anon to place the finished installer, along with Taka's perfected script, on the site. You will download it. You will play it. You will wallow in agony at the hate you displayed to a man who made such an installer. You will know Message's pain and the truly manly tears he has cried while enduring the Abuse of anon and others. Sacrificing his reputation for the ultimate installer. REPENT, FOR MESSAGE'S REPUTATION DIED FOR YOUR SINS!!! :shock:

:edit: at least that's how it should work Amiright?
Yes, because I'm going to sit in awe and stupor of a program that replaces ONE file, yet takes four months to script using someone else's shit (NSIS).

Question
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Unread post by Question » March 12th, 2008, 9:58 am

So am i the only one confused why the beta patch installs fine but the real installer isnt "done" yet?

Qaenyin Angelblade
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Unread post by Qaenyin Angelblade » March 12th, 2008, 10:14 am

Question wrote:So am i the only one confused why the beta patch installs fine but the real installer isnt "done" yet?
The reason is either OS compatibility or localization. As in, them trying to make it work without Applocale.

Everyone who is using the leaked patch is using applocale or something similar.

Chronowraith
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Unread post by Chronowraith » March 12th, 2008, 11:50 am

jesus christ....I just hope you didn't fuck the release up for all of us who were fine just waiting for the finished version.

Cirno
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Unread post by Cirno » March 12th, 2008, 12:19 pm

Qaenyin Angelblade wrote:
Question wrote:So am i the only one confused why the beta patch installs fine but the real installer isnt "done" yet?
The reason is either OS compatibility or localization. As in, them trying to make it work without Applocale.

Everyone who is using the leaked patch is using applocale or something similar.
What is Applocale?

All you have to do is copy the patch into the fate folder...

Unlimited_Blade_Works
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Unread post by Unlimited_Blade_Works » March 12th, 2008, 12:29 pm

Cirno wrote:
Qaenyin Angelblade wrote:
Question wrote:So am i the only one confused why the beta patch installs fine but the real installer isnt "done" yet?
The reason is either OS compatibility or localization. As in, them trying to make it work without Applocale.

Everyone who is using the leaked patch is using applocale or something similar.
What is Applocale?

All you have to do is copy the patch into the fate folder...
You have your regional settings set on japanese then, Applocale allows you to use programs with foreign languages without changing regional settings. Either that or its just a indirect flame.

dan187
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Unread post by dan187 » March 12th, 2008, 12:56 pm

Animatus wrote: Facts:

- The beta patch leak was an INTERNAL leak. People trying to place the blame on anon are giving him WAY too much credit.


This is something that needs to be emphasized. Other than Anon being understandably angry after months of bullshit thanks to unreasonable delays and Message being an ass and basically saying "fuck you" to the people waiting for him, Anon shares no blame in what has happened. As said, Message openly admits he does not give a shit as to what fans, including Anon, wants, he simply said he wants it to do what he wants to do. You may say that Anon as a whole should not play the patch, but that is completely unreasonable as at this time, it is like throwing stones at a beehive and not expecting the bees in the hive to come and sting you. The only thing Anon is guily of is being angry at constant bullshit and delays that have been created by one specific person on the mirror moon team. The recent prank done as well did not help the situation in anyway.


The whole reason there was a leak is simply because of internal problems with mirror moon, which all comes back to Message spending months to create an installer. In addition to selfishly getting his way to build this installer (which obviously at least 2 people on the mirror moon team disagreed with, the leaker along with TakaJun) he not only put only a halfhearted effort into it (which can be seen from his comments), he then has sat on this board with posts that have appeared to have been written solely for the purpose of angering people. You really cannot place the blame off those who have downloaded the patch, when the blame simply belongs to the member of the mirror moon team who caused significant internal problems. Misplacing the blame is simply creating a scapegoat, Anon is simply a third party who is acting in a way that one would expect them to in this situation, just reacting to the events that have occurred between members of the mirror moon team.

DarkRedSky
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Unread post by DarkRedSky » March 12th, 2008, 1:16 pm

This feels like an entire country going to war. Internal issues, flaming, political scapegoats... yea this is war.

A.R.C.C.
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Unread post by A.R.C.C. » March 12th, 2008, 1:23 pm

The only good war is a Grail War.
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YanDaMan
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Unread post by YanDaMan » March 12th, 2008, 1:57 pm

I dont understand why TakaJun feels embarrassed that people are playing his beta patch, its not like we WONT play it agian when the real thing comes out.

There are tons of people who dont know whats going on in the story or know jap (like me) who just wants to get the basic idea of the plotline and events first.

And I'll repeat again. It hardly takes one month of time for a LAZY person to make an installer. So 4 month? Hmm. My money's on Message not working on it at all and is just purposely delaying the project for kicks and thrill.

I hate to say this but its also MM's fault for letting that moron get away with it for this long, and actually allowing him to delay this thing for 4 month. If I was in charge of a project and some moron dont get result in over 4 month I'd boot him from the team. Same concept for a boss at a job to fire your ass if you dont do shit for a week or less, much less 4 month.

Anonymous # 9001
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Unread post by Anonymous # 9001 » March 12th, 2008, 2:15 pm

Animatus wrote:Let me put this into more understandable terms: You are given a group project. Let's say it's a project for school. One person goes to the library and does research. One person gets facts and figures from the internet. One person writes the paper and the accompanying speech. One person makes a Powerpoint presentation. If everything goes according to plan, you have your project done. Everybody gets done with their share of the work except the guy who's supposed to make the Powerpoint presentation. Rather than abiding by the guidelines of the project that your professor wants (and will also convey the work of every other member of the group in a reasonable fashion) he has decided that he's going to make some behemoth of a slideshow with animation and sound and a chorus line and shit. Come the day of your presentation, is your professor going to understand that one person decided that the wishes of both he and your group were cast aside for his own pursuit, or is he going to demand that you turn in your project, finished or not, and assign you a grade based upon what has been turned in?

Or, is someone going to make a damn Powerpoint presentation, get the grade that he deserves, and tell Message to eat a dick?
The flaw in the analogy is of course that this patch didn't have a hard due date that there would be repercussions for not meeting. The basic point still stands though that it's unfair to both the people waiting on the patch *and* the rest of MM for Message to take so long on an installer that nobody gives a shit about except him.
Chronowraith wrote:jesus christ....I just hope you didn't fuck the release up for all of us who were fine just waiting for the finished version.
If MM decides to throw a BREAK THE SUPPORT DISC-style temper tantrum over this and not release an official UBW patch or continue to translate HF then fuck them for being drama queens, don't place the blame on the leaker for deciding that he didn't want to put up with Message's shit anymore.

Regardless, I highly doubt they're going to do that. MM's better than that, and TakaJun said on his rant that he posted at what was most likely the height of his frustration at the whole thing that quitting over this would be stupid. So the worst that might happen is that Message quits this and we won't get to see the finished version of this glorious installer of his, oh noes.

Enerccio
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Unread post by Enerccio » March 12th, 2008, 2:25 pm

Chronowraith wrote:jesus christ....I just hope you didn't fuck the release up for all of us who were fine just waiting for the finished version.
if yes, what will you do?

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Unread post by radical_number6 » March 12th, 2008, 2:49 pm

alright, I have a few questions. Maybe some of you that are more informed of the inner workings of MM can tell me whats happening behind the scenes.

Who is Anon? I didnt see his name on the staff for FSN. Is he just a fan? Is he a member of the forum?
Whats the news I read about Message being a dick, posting something somewhere being selfish? Is it here on this forum?
Who is the leaker? Just for curiosity, is those three members of the forum and you guys have talk to them?
Again for curiosity, how does the staff team of MM hold a meeting? I would not assume that they have meet each other in person. Do they organize thing through the web?

I have read TakaJun's rant the other day and then gone suddenly the next. Seems like he's really angry. He mentioned that he cant believe he let other people talking him into letting Message handling the installer.....albeit by himself. Who did the installer for Fate's route? It cant be Message, can it? TakaJun had to be talk into letting him/her handling it, so I would assume that wasnt the case first time around for Fate's route.

Edit: Yeah. post number 3. I think the other 2 times is for asking how to install the game about a year ago. I skimmed through alot of the comments on MM about appocale. Still dont know what that is. I just set it to japanese unicode and BAM, fixed. i hate that during of the dead end choice when you got capture by Illy, where you choose 'I agree" i think, that taiga sensei tease us about altering the scences due to loli.

dan187
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Unread post by dan187 » March 12th, 2008, 2:57 pm

radical_number6 wrote:alright, I have a few questions. Maybe some of you that are more informed of the inner workings of MM can tell me whats happening behind the scenes.

Who is Anon? I didnt see his name on the staff for FSN. Is he just a fan? Is he a member of the forum?
Whats the news I read about Message being a dick, posting something somewhere being selfish? Is it here on this forum?
Who is the leaker? Just for curiosity, is those three members of the forum and you guys have talk to them?
Again for curiosity, how does the staff team of MM hold a meeting? I would not assume that they have meet each other in person. Do they organize thing through the web?

I have read TakaJun's rant the other day and then gone suddenly the next. Seems like he's really angry. He mentioned that he cant believe he let other people talking him into letting Message handling the installer.....albeit by himself. Who did the installer for Fate's route? It cant be Message, can it? TakaJun had to be talk into letting him/her handling it, so I would assume that wasnt the case first time around for Fate's route

Anon is just short for Anonymous, and refers to the posting body on 4chan, in this case heavily based around posters on the /a/ and /jp/ boards

as for Message, a few examples
viewtopic.php?p=14882&highlight=#14882
viewtopic.php?p=17447&highlight=#17447
viewtopic.php?p=16638&highlight=#16638

There are many more though, read through some of his posts in various threads

The leaker was simply one of the editors.

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