Leak

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blind51de
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Unread post by blind51de » March 11th, 2008, 8:50 pm

^ I read the whole thing, and it's all true.

People respect Mirror Moon too much to go over their heads and try to steal credit, or what's more, the whole project away.

rubberchicken
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Unread post by rubberchicken » March 11th, 2008, 8:53 pm

Anonymous_ wrote:They weren't given a choice, were they? Supposedly the translating and proofing was done months ago--if so, there wouldn't be anything stopping MM from releasing a "proper" version of the patch right this minute with all the errors fixed (I've not actually found any errors so far, and I'm on Day 7).
Of course they have a choice. They can wait for the real version, or they can strike a mighty blow for Takajun by leaking the patch he really doesn't want released. Nobody forced the leaker to step in. (Incidentally, there were a lot of changes made, even by that point in the game. Proofing involves a lot more than just fixing spelling errors.)
The other main problem is that people really disliked the fact that MM had kept a monopoly on translation despite the fact that nothing was happening--it was quite possible that nothing had been translated and simply by stating "we're working on it," Message had singlehandedly prevented anyone else from working on it.
Monopoly? whut? It's the Internet, not a business market. If somebody else wants to do a translation, they can go ahead and do it. Message can't stop them.

On the other hand...
Now that the leaked patch it out, anyone can improve it, proofread it, etc.
...taking something somebody else has done and dicking around with it is another matter entirely. (I know, I know, that's what a translation patch is in the first place.) Part of why MM did their own proofing was so that they could decide what changes were made. Now it's got the MM name on it, and yet if people go ahead and take your suggestion, it's not going to be their work anymore.
I don't think anyone installing the UBW patch actually dislikes MM, and most people are probably big fans of MM and the translation squad. I'm merely explaining their justification.
I'm sure not, but it's like people didn't even bother to think about what they were doing when they did it. Sort of like when people who pirate music say they're standing up for musicians because the RIAA steals their money. The real thought process goes more along the lines of "get free stuff first, come up with an excuse later."

Anonymous_
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Unread post by Anonymous_ » March 11th, 2008, 8:55 pm

rubberchicken wrote:Of course they have a choice. They can wait for the real version, or they can strike a mighty blow for Takajun by leaking the patch he really doesn't want released. Nobody forced the leaker to step in.
Most Anonymous gave up the prospect of UBW ever being released long ago.

Therefore, by simple logic, it is not a "mighty blow" for Takajun to play a leaked version--rather it is the best thing they could possibly do for Takajun, because it is infinitely better than never having anything released ever at all.

dan187
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Unread post by dan187 » March 11th, 2008, 9:00 pm

Just a couple points


The following was a progress update
So our current plan is:
EDITED: Nov 12th

1. I edit the current text. (This is complete)
2. Tester (proofers) go through and recommend changes. I will look over the recommendations and make changes if I see the recommendations valid. (We are here right now)
3. Insert final version of text (This should take like an hour since it's automated)
4. Beta testing: testing installer (I say this could take couple days to around a week, depending on if bugs appear or not)
5. Release!

As of tomorrow, this update will exactly 4 months old, yet most people reading this at the time would have expected a release in the not too distance future. However Message obviously felt that a perfect installer, one that the vast majority of people do not care about, was needed, and that is the only delay that was given. With what was posted on Beast Lair, it is obvious that the full mirror moon team was not united behind the installer, but it is simply Message who truly wanted to do it. Now he got his way, and he was given the ability to do this, however he not only did not only put a half hearted effort into this (based on his comments here on the forum for the past few months) he was an ass about the whole thing. Here is a post just a week ago by him (one of many examples).

(from the conspiracy thread)
Hmm... Two months, at least. Three or four if we don't count hmbmmmllbrmb*gagged*

You guys aren't doing too well with these conspiracies... Didn't anyone even consider the insane amount of money we can make with some discreetly-placed eta bets, possibly mixed with prepatched ISO lottery? Of course TYPE-MOON wasn't too fond of that idea, but we managed to cut a deal for only 10%.

Anyway, all joking aside, we've been kind of busy with mirror moon anonymous. Our enthousiasm was simply too much for us to handle, so we thought a discussion group would be a good first step towards inner peace. And whenever the urge starts to get to us, we can now grab our mm anon hotline and we will offer each other moral support, chanting "NO MORE PROJECTS!"

On top of Message being an ass, there was that whole prank earlier this month, which just simply created more anger by those who are waiting. People are not angry that the patch took a while to create, but more so they are angry at Message, who has acted like an ass and on top of that, the reasons given by mirror moon for the delays.


Now you can say it is unfair to single out Message, but assuming the comments on Beast Lair are truly by TakaJun, then it is not only us who are blaming Message, but at least part of the mirror moon team. After months of what has been happening, it is understandable, and more so expected for people to get angry at this whole thing. Now personally I am waiting for the offical patch currently, only because of TakaJun wanting people to see his final script and I still need to play through the first route, not because of it being the one Message approves of. However I do not expect people to do the same, and I can say that people will NOT, and should not be expected to wait any longer when a leak is available currently after months of anger being built up with the whole situation. I will also say that expecting people to be patient any longer for Message to finish the installer now is like throwing rocks at a beehive and expecting not to be stung, as some of the actions, especially with the recent prank along with some of Message's comments here on mirror moon, have appear to been done simply to try and show superiority over those who do not have the ability to play and have been waiting for months to play.



---
edit a point, had too big of a leap in logic.

edit 2- just a couple typos
Last edited by dan187 on March 11th, 2008, 9:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Tweety3187
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Unread post by Tweety3187 » March 11th, 2008, 9:00 pm

I'll wait for the release since i support MM and it's staff.......yes, even message, although I don't like him personally but I respect his work so far....

Cirno
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Unread post by Cirno » March 11th, 2008, 9:02 pm

If all the proofreading etc was done, then how come it was taking so long? Installers just do not take 4 months, no matter how good they are.

I predict the installer will come out within a few days now, because of the leak. And then the question is, why couldn't message have done that 4 months ago?

Anonymous_
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Unread post by Anonymous_ » March 11th, 2008, 9:03 pm

dan187 wrote:Now you can say it is unfair to single out Message, but assuming the comments on Beast Lair are truly by TakaJun, then it is not only us who are blaming Message, but the full mirror moon team. After months of what has been happening, it is understandable, and more so expected for people to get angry at this whole thing. Now Personally I am waiting for the offical patch currently, only because of TakaJun wanting people to see his final script and I still need to play through the first route, not because of it being the one Message approves of. However I do not expect people to do the same, and I can say that people will NOT, and should not be expected to wait any longer when a leak is available currently after months of anger being built up with the whole situation. I will also say that expecting people to be patient any longer for Message to finish the installer now is like throwing rocks at a beehive and expecting not to be stung, as some of the actions, especially with the recent prank along with some of Message's comments here on mirror moon, have appear to been done simply to try and show superiority over those who do not have the ability to play and have been waiting for months to play.
Agreed fully here.

rubberchicken
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Unread post by rubberchicken » March 11th, 2008, 9:06 pm

Anonymous_ wrote:Most Anonymous gave up the prospect of UBW ever being released long ago.
Most anonymous need a different hobby <_<;

I'd understand if TakaJun had said GOD DAMN IT ALL MY HARD WORK IS NEVER GOING TO BE SEEN BECAUSE OF SOME MYTHICAL INSTALLER, but some people getting impatient doesn't equate to the project being cancelled.

Gelmax
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Unread post by Gelmax » March 11th, 2008, 9:07 pm

rubberchicken wrote:
I don't think anyone installing the UBW patch actually dislikes MM, and most people are probably big fans of MM and the translation squad. I'm merely explaining their justification.
I'm sure not, but it's like people didn't even bother to think about what they were doing when they did it. Sort of like when people who pirate music say they're standing up for musicians because the RIAA steals their money. The real thought process goes more along the lines of "get free stuff first, come up with an excuse later."
Considering that all fan translations (including this one) are technically against the law, perhaps you shouldn't compare leaking the patch to piracy. It's one of those old obscure pieces of copyright law that don't really get enforced nowadays, but as far as I know it's still on the books (of course, I'm no lawyer).

rubberchicken
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Unread post by rubberchicken » March 11th, 2008, 9:09 pm

Gelmax wrote:
rubberchicken wrote:
I don't think anyone installing the UBW patch actually dislikes MM, and most people are probably big fans of MM and the translation squad. I'm merely explaining their justification.
I'm sure not, but it's like people didn't even bother to think about what they were doing when they did it. Sort of like when people who pirate music say they're standing up for musicians because the RIAA steals their money. The real thought process goes more along the lines of "get free stuff first, come up with an excuse later."
Considering that all fan translations (including this one) are technically against the law, perhaps you shouldn't compare leaking the patch to piracy. It's one of those old obscure pieces of copyright law that don't really get enforced nowadays, but as far as I know it's still on the books (of course, I'm no lawyer).
I know, I'm just comparing the mindset rather than the legal ramifications.

Cirno
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Unread post by Cirno » March 11th, 2008, 9:10 pm

rubberchicken wrote:
Gelmax wrote:
rubberchicken wrote: I'm sure not, but it's like people didn't even bother to think about what they were doing when they did it. Sort of like when people who pirate music say they're standing up for musicians because the RIAA steals their money. The real thought process goes more along the lines of "get free stuff first, come up with an excuse later."
Considering that all fan translations (including this one) are technically against the law, perhaps you shouldn't compare leaking the patch to piracy. It's one of those old obscure pieces of copyright law that don't really get enforced nowadays, but as far as I know it's still on the books (of course, I'm no lawyer).
I know, I'm just comparing the mindset rather than the legal ramifications.
It was free anyway, your comparison sucked.

blind51de
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Unread post by blind51de » March 11th, 2008, 9:13 pm

Tweety3187 wrote:I'll wait for the release since i support MM and it's staff.......yes, even message, although I don't like him personally but I respect his work so far....
Work like the Utaware installer? On that note, did you know that it as well as the UBW installer are pretty much the same thing, minus a readme and a few other misc things?

How do I know this? Because TakaJun himself told me. Last month. February 16th. I sent him a respectful request in January to boot Message off the project. He got right back to me, telling me that the installer was almost complete. Three weeks later, I thought I'd drop him another respectful line. He told me:
TakaJun wrote:[regarding his having mentioned before that he might make a simple installer if things still drag on]
It's actually too late... The framework of the installer is done, as you can see from utaware being released. Only small things remain like the readme and stuff, so it'll probably take more time if I wanted to start making a simple installer.
How is he so sure how far the installer is done? How else, when he has minimal coding experience? Message told him so. Message almost certainly has lied on several occasions about installer progress, or the importance of his voodoo magicks, and kept TakaJun, as well as the entire remainder of the MM staff, on a rope covered in bullshit. The staff probably didn't know anything more about the installer progress than we did. They just trusted in him to deliver as promised, eventually. But getting to the point:

If it is true that the Utaware and UBW installers are almost the same, what has Message been doing this past month?

So what's more significant? Message's utter lack of work ethic and lying to pretty much everybody? Or one editor/proofer who couldn't wait any longer while watching his peers seethe for months because of one guy with no work ethic or empathy with the people he's supposedly doing this for? I don't excuse "Ascalon" (who I still think should reveal himself) for breaking the trust between TakaJun and the proofers, but I certainly accuse Message of bullshitting absolutely everybody.
Last edited by blind51de on March 11th, 2008, 9:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Kalzin
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Unread post by Kalzin » March 11th, 2008, 9:15 pm

I'd feel wrong playing the leaked version, so I'll wait for the real release.

I think it's better to wait a little bit, rather than go against the wishes of the person who is nicely donating the time and skills required to do this kind of translation. Good luck, TakaJun.

Gelmax
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Unread post by Gelmax » March 11th, 2008, 9:19 pm

rubberchicken wrote:I know, I'm just comparing the mindset rather than the legal ramifications.
But your comparison doesn't make sense. The translation was made for the purposes of being distributed to the entire internet for free. The translation was distributed to the entire internet for free; the only difference between TakaJun's intentions and what actually happened is that a different person distributed it than intended, and his "good enough" translation got distributed rather than his "perfect" translation.

And wait, why're you blaming the people downloading the patch? It didn't just magically appear on its own, even the long arm of Anonymous doesn't reach that far. Whoever leaked the patch was obviously affiliated with Mirror-Moon in some way.

Kiraiya
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Unread post by Kiraiya » March 11th, 2008, 9:22 pm

Gelmax wrote:
rubberchicken wrote:I know, I'm just comparing the mindset rather than the legal ramifications.
But your comparison doesn't make sense. The translation was made for the purposes of being distributed to the entire internet for free. The translation was distributed to the entire internet for free; the only difference between TakaJun's intentions and what actually happened is that a different person distributed it than intended, and his "good enough" translation got distributed rather than his "perfect" translation.

And wait, why're you blaming the people downloading the patch? It didn't just magically appear on its own, even the long arm of Anonymous doesn't reach that far. Whoever leaked the patch was obviously affiliated with Mirror-Moon in some way.
I was thinking the same thing. Whoever leaked the patch HAD to have some sort of direct contact with it or mirror moon staff. Whoever it was must have been as pissed at Message's incompetence as the rest of us were. But as Taka stated they still should've at least let him in on it prior to the leaking.
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NotMassage
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Unread post by NotMassage » March 11th, 2008, 9:22 pm

Edit: This is NOT Message
► Show Spoiler

blind51de
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Unread post by blind51de » March 11th, 2008, 9:25 pm

Gelmax wrote:And wait, why're you blaming the people downloading the patch? It didn't just magically appear on its own, even the long arm of Anonymous doesn't reach that far. Whoever leaked the patch was obviously affiliated with Mirror-Moon in some way.
Actually, "Ascalon" is an anon who mostly lurks. He was going to leak the patch for Christmas when he saw Message's snowballing everyone, but had a change of heart at the time because he couldn't imagine it taking longer. Then yesterday happened.
Anon has been involved in a few "Internets Superhero" acts the past year or so. Starting sub groups to crack the whip at slow subbers to get them working again, that kind of thing.

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lolipedofin
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Unread post by lolipedofin » March 11th, 2008, 9:25 pm

I assumed 1+1 = 2!
Are you sure you should be here?? This forum is 18+ u know?? go back to 1st grade and re-learn your math. You don't assume math (much less "1+1"), it's a fact, it's given. They don't put deadline because they know what humans are, even without deadline the scrutiny was unavoidable, they might have derailed the initial release date in their mind, but since they never announce any release date to us, i don't see any mistake done. As far as i know, they are accountable to what they say, they stay true to their commitment, it's just people are way to expectant and "assume" to much... And don't say you only 'hate' message and appreciate takajun's work, because making him disappointed, mad, and sad that he has to rant somewhere is not appreciative.

People seems has a warped taste of justice here. I don't care what reasoning you use, the guy who planned and made this is a wanker, it's as plain as a day to me.
Uchi kaeru....

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Unread post by Kjoery » March 11th, 2008, 9:40 pm

lolipedofin wrote:
I assumed 1+1 = 2!
it's a fact, it's given.
I was using the statement as an example of equivalence to another statement, but it's true that it's both a fact and a conclusion that can be drawn through rational thought.

Raven
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Unread post by Raven » March 11th, 2008, 9:42 pm

Kjoery wrote: I think you're getting respect confused with dictatorship. And uh, yeah, I'm pretty sure respect is based on opinion.
No, dictatorship does not have an option. Respect does, you can choose either to respect something, or not to respect it. Example: I sincerely hope you know how the word respect working in a debate at this point, because if you don't then that would implies all you know at this point is flaming. In a debate, both sides can sometime never agree with each others or accept each others point of view, however knowing how to respect the other opinion is the fine line between a proper discussion and flame fest. Either way no one can force you.The problem here is that, people are saying they respect something, but their action speak otherwise. No one ask you to pay respect, but don't claim you're doing so while you in fact don't. Respect =/= things I agree with.

Bottom line is, just a bunch of hypocrites trying to find excuse to justify their action. If you do something bad, you know yourself down one level of respect, however it stops there if you just admit it, but trying to justify your wrong doing, that knock you down two level of respect.

Leaking is just a lighter form of piracy where piraters can all find the morally reason to pirate. Company A is an evil coporation that has no sound and I won't support them, or Company B releases crap product that's not worth paying for. And yet, at the end of the day, those piraters all happily use the softwares for free. The principal? It's worth playing, it's worth paying. Just don't make damn excuses.

The principal in this case? If it's worth playing, and it's worth paying respect to, it's worth waiting. Like I said, I will always treat mirror-moon as a whole and entiety of its members. Any internal discussion, good or bad, and problem sthey may have is for them to decide and handle, I have no right neither the intention to comment or butt in. Any final decision that they reach as a group is good enough for me unless I'm a part of the team.


Again, I just hope no-one is shooting their own foot, and I hope my foot is not getting shot at by some others. But then again, it kinda pointless to argue at this point, if anything I learnt about the pirate community, discussion never go anywhere. Maybe I'll just stop here.

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