Question about Fate route (SPOILERS).

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Nephilm
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Question about Fate route (SPOILERS).

Unread post by Nephilm » January 7th, 2008, 8:57 pm

Shirou faces Shinji in the school. What ensues is one of the few moments of awesome Shirou has in that route. Then Rider shows up and defenestrates him.

Ok, my question is this:

Why does he die if you don't call Saber?

Out of the 2 choices in which he can call her, in one she picks him up and in the other he falls to the ground, then stands up unscathed. Then, if he's capable of surviving the fall (because of Avalon, probably), then why does he die if he doesn't call her? He should survive. One possible explanation would be Avalon functioning better with Saber close-by or some such, but that explanation feels rather weak to me.

The entire thing gives off an aura of plot hole, and I'd be glad if someone could clear it up.

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Unread post by Brizzle » January 7th, 2008, 9:02 pm

Please forgive me if I'm wrong (it's been a while since I went through Fate), but when he falls and dies, doesn't it briefly show the swords made inside his body tearing out through his skin?

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Unread post by Kansho » January 7th, 2008, 9:05 pm

Shirou's body/soul is made of swords, so something in his body cease functioning due to the shock and his soul lost all self-control, sprouting swords through his chest and killing him. The thing with Shirou's soul is explained in the other scenarios, UBW and HF.

And Avalon isn't infallible either. Such a crash and the sprouting swords is enough to kill Shirou.
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Unread post by Henduluin » January 7th, 2008, 10:40 pm

Yeah. To my knowledge Avalon can only heal, not ressurect, so if Shirou were to suffer enough damage in a short enough period of time (ie: falling down several stories while already seriously injured), he'd still die. (Unless he won't, lulz)
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Unread post by noradseven » January 8th, 2008, 12:24 am

you must remember the sheaths healing powers are not as broken as the charaters from tsukihime
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plus its the main charater and if you couldn't be killed I mean then you would like never have a dead end and that just wouldn't be fun would it now

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Unread post by Nephilm » January 8th, 2008, 1:59 am

You guys are missing the point >_>

In one of the choices where he survives, he isn't caught by Saber, he drops to the ground. Then stands up, amazed but more concerned about taking care of Shinji. In the dead-end choice, he dies from the same drop.

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Unread post by serialies » January 8th, 2008, 2:19 am

avalon does more than just healing...its just that shiro cant use the more latent abilities of it (yet)

and even if he did survive the fall how can he kill shinji's servant? not to mention hes under constant exposure to the blood fort (he gets turned into a mana smoothie)...if he DIDNT die i would be asking questions XD
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Unread post by Silverman » January 8th, 2008, 2:47 am

Henduluin wrote:Yeah. To my knowledge Avalon can only heal, not ressurect, so if Shirou were to suffer enough damage in a short enough period of time (ie: falling down several stories while already seriously injured), he'd still die. (Unless he won't, lulz)
Well... to my knowledge, Avalon is more than that...
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Unread post by Brizzle » January 8th, 2008, 4:51 am

Nephilm wrote:You guys are missing the point >_>

In one of the choices where he survives, he isn't caught by Saber, he drops to the ground. Then stands up, amazed but more concerned about taking care of Shinji. In the dead-end choice, he dies from the same drop.
Well, whatever the reason, in the dead end, he is killed by the swords in his body causing massive stabby-death. Why they pop out when he doesn't summon Saber, I don't know. When they don't come out, it may even help protect him. I'm fairly certain it's why Rider had a hard time piercing him with her spikes.

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Unread post by Raitei » January 10th, 2008, 12:43 pm

this one's rather irrelevant ( because it happens in the prologue ), still, it bothers me a little, though...

why can't archer sense gil as a servant when he met gil ( with rin, the part in which rin hid from sakura who was talking with gil at the moment ) ? I suppose servants should be able to sense each other's presence, right?
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Unread post by Kansho » January 10th, 2008, 12:50 pm

Raitei wrote:this one's rather irrelevant ( because it happens in the prologue ), still, it bothers me a little, though...

why can't archer sense gil as a servant when he met gil ( with rin, the part in which rin hid from sakura who was talking with gil at the moment ) ? I suppose servants should be able to sense each other's presence, right?
Because Gil have a physical body. The Grail content swallow him, so now he's physical. Not really a "servant", something similar.

Is the same as the
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見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by Raitei » January 10th, 2008, 12:56 pm

Kansho wrote:Because Gil have a physical body. The Grail content swallow him, so now he's physical. Not really a "servant", something similar.

Is the same as the
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yo, thanks for clearing it out.

one last question : I suppose normal human beings ( masters ) cannot harm servants' spiritual body. but humans can still see and touch the servants ( right? because shirou can hug saber etc, etc... ). how does that work? does that mean servants have both spiritual and physical bodies? how can they do?

edit : I'd like to delete this post and post another if I could, since I want to reply to both your posts ( kansho and serialies ), but since I can't, i'll just edit this post :P
serialies wrote:hmm? thats not the only time
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so i guess he doesnt have the whole "HEY IM A SERVANT HAY HAY HAYHAHYAAAYAHAHAHAYAHAYAHA-" aura to him...
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but its more likely that
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yo, that's another interesting theory you have there. make sense, it does.

but I have another reason why two of your reason is not 100% true ( according to me ) :
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serialies wrote:
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but your example of shirou in shinji's house is 100% acceptable to me. I'm in full agreement with you in this case. ;)
Last edited by Raitei on January 10th, 2008, 1:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Unread post by serialies » January 10th, 2008, 12:58 pm

hmm? thats not the only time
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so i guess he doesnt have the whole "HEY IM A SERVANT HAY HAY HAYHAHYAAAYAHAHAHAYAHAYAHA-" aura to him...
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but its more likely that
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Unread post by Mukuro » January 10th, 2008, 3:07 pm

hmm? thats not the only time
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so i guess he doesnt have the whole "HEY IM A SERVANT HAY HAY HAYHAHYAAAYAHAHAHAYAHAYAHA-" aura to him..
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Maybe just because saber is too focused on Shirou at the time.
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but its more likely that
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Maybe that's the case...
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Rider is not a perfect example...
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Okay, I'm confused...

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Unread post by serialies » January 10th, 2008, 3:48 pm

topic already has SPOILER on it...so i dont see the need for spoiler tags...
After all she is only loyal to Sakura not Shinji. Maybe she know Shirou don't bring his servant but she don't feel any need to tell Shinji or just don't want to.
if that were true, she could have just let shiro kill him in the school, rather than save him...besides shinji pretty much has unlimited command seals over rider, + she doesnt really gain anything over lying to him...

and even though shinji was/is an asshole, sakura DID care for him somewhat (perhaps only a little), so rider would look out for shinji for the sake of sakura.
not necessarily. because why did rin have to use her command spell to remove archer from the place? archer can just turn ( or rin ordered him to ) into spirit form and saber will lost track of him.
well...command spell = force act instantly right...so she forced him to go into spirit because he either couldnt for some reason...or his reaction was too slow...either way, saber was like "fuck, he dissapeared...guess ill have to kill that girl(rin) instead"

but all that was just speculation on my part...what kansho said about gils body makes more sense.

however i did read something along the lines of only caster being able to detect spirit stuff...but w/e XD
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Unread post by Kansho » January 10th, 2008, 4:28 pm

serialies wrote:if that were true, she could have just let shiro kill him in the school, rather than save him...besides shinji pretty much has unlimited command seals over rider, + she doesnt really gain anything over lying to him...

and even though shinji was/is an asshole, sakura DID care for him somewhat (perhaps only a little), so rider would look out for shinji for the sake of sakura.
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Last edited by Kansho on January 11th, 2008, 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
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Unread post by Caineth » January 10th, 2008, 7:07 pm

Referring to the part said that servants cant detect servants in other forms. This is also from the prologue, but remember that Lancer was able to see Archer even though Lancer was in physical form and Archer was in spiritual form.

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Unread post by Mukuro » January 10th, 2008, 9:15 pm

if that were true, she could have just let shiro kill him in the school, rather than save him...besides shinji pretty much has unlimited command seals over rider, + she doesnt really gain anything over lying to him...
That's because Shinji spesifically order her to do so at the school while at the house, he didn't ask rider anything so she is not lying, just witholding an (important) information.
well...command spell = force act instantly right...so she forced him to go into spirit because he either couldnt for some reason...or his reaction was too slow...either way, saber was like "fuck, he dissapeared...guess ill have to kill that girl(rin) instead"
Probably because Archer's wounded that he can't go spirit, or maybe because Archer's reaction is slow (he is already surprised when he saw saber) and Rin don't want Archer to be taken out yet and was quite sure that one of her gem could at least give her a chance to escape.

To me saber was like :
"Good, the servant dissapeared, time to kill the master."
however i did read something along the lines of only caster being able to detect spirit stuff...but w/e XD
I think that was long range detection. You know, like observing other servants with a crystall ball from her room....

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Unread post by serialies » January 11th, 2008, 1:43 am

it didnt seem like it, appeared to me that rider saved shinji on a whim rather than command...
he was like "give up my command seals? but then rider will..."
*rider appears*
rider: "k time 4 us 2 gtfo"

odds are that she might want shinji alive and well so that sakura wouldnt have to fight as a master?...thats a really logical conclusion as rider herself doesnt want to lose the holy grail war, but at the same time she doesnt want sakura put in danger, so fighting with shinji would be the better choice.

and @ saber thing either way she couldnt fight the servant anymore, and aimed for the master...what she felt/thought at the time is kinda irrelevant (although it would reflect on her character)

and your probably right about the caster thing
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Unread post by Mukuro » January 11th, 2008, 6:15 am

About the saber thing, it's not that she can't fight Archer anymore, her target from the beggining is the master, Rin. She just attacked Archer first since he will most likely in the way if she attacked Rin first. Now that the obstacle is gone, she will resume her original objective...or so I thought.

Unless the command "dissapear" means literally dissapearing from that place instead of going spirit form...

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