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Unread postby sterling01 » October 1st, 2007, 10:42 am

Never said I thought it was
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Unread postby Raykun » October 2nd, 2007, 12:17 am

tyvm guys my questions are answered!
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Unread postby Einherjar » October 2nd, 2007, 3:53 am

sterling01 wrote:Never said I thought it was


I know. I was referring to Raykun's quote, not your's
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Unread postby Neofit » October 9th, 2007, 5:52 pm

Speaking of SHIKI and Shiki, I also have a question:

In Hisui`s route(IIRC), at some point, Shiki has a dream in which he meets with another killer after slaughtering a few people in the back alley, then they drink coffee together and talk about their abilities. Now, it seems obvious that the other killer is SHIKI, but is that dream real? It can`t be that Shiki was seeing SHIKI`s actions in his dream again, right? IIRC, the next morning he also had blood on his hands or somesuch(?). So was Shiki actually a killer himself?
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Unread postby -[J1N]- » October 10th, 2007, 12:06 am

Neofit wrote:Speaking of SHIKI and Shiki, I also have a question:

In Hisui`s route(IIRC), at some point, Shiki has a dream in which he meets with another killer after slaughtering a few people in the back alley, then they drink coffee together and talk about their abilities. Now, it seems obvious that the other killer is SHIKI, but is that dream real? It can`t be that Shiki was seeing SHIKI`s actions in his dream again, right? IIRC, the next morning he also had blood on his hands or somesuch(?). So was Shiki actually a killer himself?


Ahh I don't remember everything about it, but I think it was real, but there's also the possibility that the person that was "Shiki" was in fact someone else. Shiki constantly sees SHIKI in his dreams, and he is able to 'connect' with him in a certain way, however, the 'dream' you were talking about was something a bit different. Then again, that 'dream' might've been real, but i can't seem to remember it properly
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Unread postby Neofit » October 10th, 2007, 11:28 am

-[J1N]- wrote:
Neofit wrote:Speaking of SHIKI and Shiki, I also have a question:

In Hisui`s route(IIRC), at some point, Shiki has a dream in which he meets with another killer after slaughtering a few people in the back alley, then they drink coffee together and talk about their abilities. Now, it seems obvious that the other killer is SHIKI, but is that dream real? It can`t be that Shiki was seeing SHIKI`s actions in his dream again, right? IIRC, the next morning he also had blood on his hands or somesuch(?). So was Shiki actually a killer himself?


Ahh I don't remember everything about it, but I think it was real, but there's also the possibility that the person that was "Shiki" was in fact someone else. Shiki constantly sees SHIKI in his dreams, and he is able to 'connect' with him in a certain way, however, the 'dream' you were talking about was something a bit different. Then again, that 'dream' might've been real, but i can't seem to remember it properly


Well, I remember that they talked about each other`s abilities. Shiki explained about how he sees the lines of death and the other guy (SHIKI, I`m pretty sure) about how he can still live even after losing major organs or limbs so I don`t think it was someone other than Shiki.


EDIT:
Ah, it isn`t Hisui`s route...I can`t seem to remember right now...maybe Akiha or Acueid...or Ciel? I`ll check it out later anyway.
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Unread postby Naota » October 10th, 2007, 8:40 pm

Actually, it took place in Kohaku's route. The reason Shiki was acting so strangely (besides his tie to SHIKI, insomnia, his 'life' being split between two people, inversion impulse) was because of Kohaku's hallucinogenic medicine that made him think he was a murderer. As for who was who, I'm fairly certain the one drinking the coffee was SHIKI, while the one buying it for him was (Nanaya) Shiki.
"They marched onwards, fire against earth, bodies piling ever higher for the whims of rival demons, content in their game. The masses never questioned their intent nor knew their masters, serving Hell more than Heaven in their madness. For madness went unchallenged here, and the great machine of many faces, skins, and thoughts continued to turn in silence."
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Unread postby Neofit » October 11th, 2007, 3:29 pm

Yeah, it was Kohaku`s.
That much I know, about the hallucinogenic medicine and who the guys talking were. I guess what I am really asking is: Did Shiki actually flip out and killed a bunch of people? Seems really the case to me.
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Unread postby -[J1N]- » October 12th, 2007, 1:49 am

Neofit wrote:Yeah, it was Kohaku`s.
That much I know, about the hallucinogenic medicine and who the guys talking were. I guess what I am really asking is: Did Shiki actually flip out and killed a bunch of people? Seems really the case to me.


I think Naota answered that already:

Naota wrote:".... was because of Kohaku's hallucinogenic medicine that made him think he was a murderer"
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Unread postby Neofit » October 12th, 2007, 3:08 pm

-[J1N]- wrote:
Neofit wrote:Yeah, it was Kohaku`s.
That much I know, about the hallucinogenic medicine and who the guys talking were. I guess what I am really asking is: Did Shiki actually flip out and killed a bunch of people? Seems really the case to me.


I think Naota answered that already:

Naota wrote:".... was because of Kohaku's hallucinogenic medicine that made him think he was a murderer"


So, in other words he DID kill all those people then.
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Unread postby Naota » October 12th, 2007, 3:24 pm

Actually, he never really killed anyone in the story up until his fight with SHIKI. The blood on his hands didn't actually exist at all, and his trips outside were to find the serial killer that was on the news. However, if you make a certain choice on one of the nights, Shiki does indeed go out to look for the serial killer (who turns out to be just a normal guy, not a vampire, and most certainly not SHIKI) and successfully murders him.

It's kinda difficult to explain, but the 'serial killer' changes identities for almost every route, and sometimes within the routes themselves. Akiha, Arcueid, SHIKI/Roa, Satsuki, the normal human serial killer, and even Shiki himself have been the suspected killer at different times throughout the game. This is especially obvious because they end up doing the exact same things late at night. In the case I'm referring to, Shiki kills the infamous serial killer to find out that he's only a normal guy, then wanders off and starts behaving just like he does in his dreams (Bad End, and the original source of the phrase 'Satsujinki/Shikiller'.

Seeing as coldly murdering a serial killer lands you a bad end, I'm fairly certain that no innocent people were killed by Shiki.
"They marched onwards, fire against earth, bodies piling ever higher for the whims of rival demons, content in their game. The masses never questioned their intent nor knew their masters, serving Hell more than Heaven in their madness. For madness went unchallenged here, and the great machine of many faces, skins, and thoughts continued to turn in silence."
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Unread postby A.R.C.C. » October 13th, 2007, 1:11 am

This discussion could be simplified if "[SPOILERS]" was just placed in the thread title. . .
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Unread postby Neofit » October 14th, 2007, 10:03 am

Naota wrote:
Seeing as coldly murdering a serial killer lands you a bad end, I'm fairly certain that no innocent people were killed by Shiki.



Replayed that specific part. After talking with Kohaku Shiki goes to bed then at midnight he gets up and goes into town. Next scene shows him counting the dead bodies. His hands are coated with blood and he sees his knife with the Nanatsu Yoru inscription. Then he hears another person approaching and he tries to kill that person only to have his strike blocked by another knife. He discovers that the other person is also a killer then they go and find a place where they sit and talk about stuff including their abilities. One of them is definitely Shiki and the other I`m pretty sure he`s SHIKI by the description of his ability of not being easy to kill. They part ways and Shiki heads back to the mansion. When he wakes up in the morning he sees his arms are stained up to the elbow in blood.
So, how does Shiki NOT kill those people? Seems pretty clear.
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Unread postby Hiyono » October 14th, 2007, 6:12 pm

I believe the idea is that he's hallucinated all the killings.
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Unread postby JimmyT64 » October 15th, 2007, 11:27 am

Under the influence of hallucinatory drugs, Shiki goes to sleep. Kohaku comes into his room, and starts whispering in his ear things like "You are the killer that is walking the streets." Thus, he hallucinates that he is killing people. Then, due to mind-linkage, he meets SHIKI in the middle of his hallucination, and they have an entirely fictional chat. Kohaku covers poor Shiki's arms in medical blood, and there we have it!
Tsukihime drinking game. 1. Every time a word or a phrase is repeated 3 or more times, take a drink (eg. This chair).
2. Every time Shiki claims not to understand something already explained, take a drink
3. Every time Shiki doesn't realize someone is hitting on him, take a drink.
4. Every time someone who should be dead, isn't, take a drink.
5. Every time Shiki does something ridiculous with points\lines.
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Unread postby Neofit » October 15th, 2007, 11:59 am

Yeah, that scenario did come to mind, but still my position remains the same. It would be too convenient for everything to be blamed on Kohaku.
Each individual believes what they want, based on their image of Shiki, I guess.
To me, him having a little crazy side like that would be most appealing. 8)
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Unread postby Naota » October 15th, 2007, 4:19 pm

Another fact that jumped out at me to support the fact that Shiki so far hasn't killed any normal human beings was that you got a bad end for actually finding the real killer and murdering him, just because he was a human being.

Also, from what was said in the PLUS+Disk's first story, Shiki told his imitator that he had never killed a human being.
"They marched onwards, fire against earth, bodies piling ever higher for the whims of rival demons, content in their game. The masses never questioned their intent nor knew their masters, serving Hell more than Heaven in their madness. For madness went unchallenged here, and the great machine of many faces, skins, and thoughts continued to turn in silence."
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Unread postby Einherjar » October 15th, 2007, 8:30 pm

Neofit wrote:Yeah, that scenario did come to mind, but still my position remains the same. It would be too convenient for everything to be blamed on Kohaku.
Each individual believes what they want, based on their image of Shiki, I guess.
To me, him having a little crazy side like that would be most appealing. 8)


Did you know how evil Kohaku is seriously?

Kohaku giving drugs to Shiki is a fact in the visual novel, no question about it.
She looked pretty scary in the end of Hisui route too. At least her ending is good.
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Unread postby -[J1N]- » October 16th, 2007, 6:01 am

Neofit wrote:Yeah, that scenario did come to mind, but still my position remains the same. It would be too convenient for everything to be blamed on Kohaku.
Each individual believes what they want, based on their image of Shiki, I guess.
To me, him having a little crazy side like that would be most appealing. 8)


It's a bit easier to believe if you know that Kohaku's main objectives is to clear out the Tohno family. I wouldn't say it's too convenient, because you have to remember Kohaku hasn't done anything for revenge until now, and there's also the things about the hallucinogens. What I'm trying to get at is that there are quite a few things that point to Kohaku plotting it, rather then just because we want it to be her, or that it fits better because we feel it does.

Shiki does have a crazy side, which is his blood =)
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for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."]
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Unread postby Neofit » October 16th, 2007, 11:31 am

No, no, I meant that Kohaku aside, he could have still had a bad case of flipping out and killing some s**t. :P
Ah, anyway, thanks for clearing that up for me guys. I guess I can`t overlook such facts.
Uh yeah, and I was also going to ask about the conversation between Shiki and SHIKI but I suppose that their bond explains it.
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