Shiki's Eyes of Death Perception

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Unread postby zweiterversuch » August 28th, 2008, 2:03 pm

Who is DAA?

Dante Alligeri-Eri?

wait...that is DAE.....
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Unread postby kaerstan01 » August 28th, 2008, 2:18 pm

zweiterversuch wrote:Who is DAA?

Dante Alligeri-Eri?

wait...that is DAE.....


Dead Apostle Ancestors, Chaos "was" one of them :wink:
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Unread postby Rikh » August 29th, 2008, 3:59 am

Why not give him a knife throwing machine gun too (that can pierce lines of death)... Since we are already this far on making him badass

Maybe have him lose an arm and replace it with archers arm. This will give shiki the ability to trace Berserkers Sword so he can do Nine Live Mystic Eyes Works, in which he can 'kill' things at the speed of mach 5..... nine times???

oh... and the Ryouga Shiki exclusive skill to activate and deactivate eyes (anime style) when needed.


i think he will be pretty nasu-based badass then



oh and throw in a kaliedostick..
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Unread postby AlinSabel » August 29th, 2008, 4:03 am

That's not Nataku from Houshin Engi... *refers to the joke where the master of Nataku imagines what he'd look like with even more random weapons and crap*
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » August 29th, 2008, 9:59 am

What we need to make Shiki even more bad ass is a pair of black glasses and a coat.


(I made it, but I must say....(it is very, very ...ehh....odd.)
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Unread postby serialies » August 29th, 2008, 9:59 am

got time to kill, and yes, i realise that the post gap between this post and what im quoting is rather large

Not that T.Shiki's eyes cant level up, so it doesnt mean Shiki's eyes cant reach her level someday.
But again, R.Shiki's body is more in tune with accepting information from Akasha, so she will always has much easier time using it without a need for a limiter like T.Shiki's glasses or something, and it will still be hard for her to have her brain fried.
(this is what I came to understand, not necessary right)


her body is both "dead" and "alive" (not exactly, but something along that line)
makes her body near perfect for mystic eyes of D, also why Souren wants her body as a steping stone to reach the root


I saw mostly everyone around here take this and translated it into "CNM has no effect if it pierce God Hand, even if he can see the dot" with a tons of reasoning about Berserker's soul cant disappear and so on due to the Throne of Heroes
And they liken the ability to turning a monster hp to zero in a MMORPG game


IIRC, that was just my view on it (analogy and all), don't know how much other people believed it, dante obscuri (i think...or was it brizzle? perhaps both) disagreed, so obviously it wasn't all that readily accepted.

I have to disagree
Explanation for my disagreement:
First, the ability to take away life force, as in, return hp to zero is SHIKI's eyes, not Shiki's

SHIKI has no "eyes" persay, just elements from Shiki's ability was shared due to their link, IIRC.
and as for the analogy of HP -> 0
lets say we have two living blobs, one is stabbed by SHIKI, and one by Shiki
either way, both blobs will be dead, one wont be any "more dead" or "less dead" than the other, in other words, hp 0, just "the mechanics behind how their death is brought about" is different
although, overall the analogy is limiting anyway...and it wouldnt be applicable to chairs :P

Shiki eyes' is taking away lifespan, and the limit, is more like
'Reading up the Akasha, fast forward, at once point, this being no longer "live", as in, reached its time limit, ceased to be, (not "existence is denied", "hacked record" but "end of it time of existing/living", "the record about it ended") okay, saw it
*stab*
the time between now and that moment disappear, the time limit is reached, the life span ended, not in the sense of having all its life force robbed away, but reaching it end according to the record of Akasha'

every thing as a predetermined kind of death, eyes just activate it, "cuts away the time to the predetermined death" is what i understand of it

1.O---------pre-determined-death
2.dotstab
3.Opre-determined-death

instead of it happening "then" it happens "now", simply because the time between "then" and "now" is gone (basing this upon the explanation given in KnK, amongst other stuff)

Or according to Baiken, the one who's working with the Typemoon wiki: Akasha record countless possiblity, think about it as we are jumping to another reality where the one that got stabbed no longer... uhm, live, for a lack of better word

well, if this were the case (i know it's not meant to be taken literally, so view this example in the same kind of light), it should be "jump into a world where herc has died once" rather than "jump into a world where herc is completely dead 12x"
meh, it's a misleading way to think about it anyway IMO

taking the MMORPG metaphor, it's not turning the monster to zero, and it can revive
It's one step further: "realize the moment its time limit's reached, soul dissipate"
or "making this monster the same as its counterpart in another parallel server where it is no longer there"

specifically in terms of the analogy at hand, i think i understand what you're saying, but wouldn't it be more like:
"monster is dead, screw the HP, drop the loot already"

Now talk about God Hand
Since if Berserker soul, as in, the Servant Berserker, dissipated, nothing can help him survive (a dissipated soul has no quality, no trait, no ability whatsoever), God Hand must somehow forced his soul not to dissipate, as in, his soul must still be there.
Forget the stuff one may say that Eirei cant disappear
Heracles never disappear, he's always there in the throne, his God Hand count is always at 12 in the throne
Now when Berserker is defeated, does the Servant soul dissipate and turn into energy without any quality or personality? yes, that's the point of HF, they need that soul energy.


@ underlined part: Roa
@everything else: it's a little hard to say, we don't know the full mechanics behind how Herc revives, although if your argument were (from what i understand of it) true; god hand wouldn't really work at all, god hand doesn't stop him from being defeated or dying, it's just that he revives afterwards (to the limit of 12 times), if death/defeat gets someones ass on the way to akasha instantly, then f/sn and tsukihime would be alot less interesting :P

also, @point-of-HF-is-soul-energy: true they need/desire the soul energy, but even so, herc still revived within the grail war, what stopped him from being "harvested" the first time he "died" or the second, third, or nth time? it was godhand, and as you said "God Hand must somehow forced his soul not to dissipate, as in, his soul must still be there." so i can't really see why that would change with the mystic eye of D

also, few more things, the eye is bound to the worlds rules (eg, can't kill stuff that simply cannot die)
and as god hand is "natural" eg it works in accordance with the worlds rules (divine things are natural, in the nasuverse atleast), wouldn't it make sense for this to prevail over eyes of D considering as it, in a sense, would have the backing of the worlds "rules"?

another thing to consider (although this one is a stretch of the imagination), god hand could be like a phenomenon, and while eyes of D can end the "current incantation" it can't actually destroy the phenomenon itself, so god hand would in this case, persist.

Now back to CNM
IF Shiki ever see dot on him and stab that
it's not taking his hp to 0, then Berserker revives
It's cutting the time until Berserker the Servant is no longer there, as in, dissipated, someone killed him 12 times, etc

well, as i said before, it's hard to say without full knowledge of the mechanics behind it all, although im more inclined to think that it would cut away one "time" rather than twelve times at once, and assuming there are 12 times actually there to be cut is a large assumption to make.

although this is fairly binary logic, consider this: for shiki to kill Berserker completely with one dot-stab (assuming there was a dot to be stabbed), it would equate to "severing" 12 "time-span-of-life", but this would only work if the 12 "time-spans" were already there to be cut/activated, but that wouldnt make much sense, both practically and logically, it would make more sense for him to be using 1 "time-span" at a time.
if that makes sense.

Cut the crap "stab ---> Berserker disappear---> wait, he's Eirei, he cant ----> return to throne ----> God hand activate---> throw back to world"
The image of Heracles on the Throne is frozen, his God hand always stay at 12
The God hand that ever activate is the Servant Berserker's one
If the time limit is turned to zero, the moment Servant Berserker dissipate, then the image, the Heracles on the Throne isnt affect one bit, no contradiction will be created, actually, the contradiction (a Servant) is crushed, in Gaia's eye, all is happy, at least to Gaia. The soul energy just return to where it came from. God hand is not activated, or, rather, as a part of that Servant Berserker, it reached it time limit. The record about this being called Servant Berserker ended in Askasha's part for this reality.
quote from fuyuki:
"When that time limit is up, the soul returns to Akasha, dispersed, and then recycled."

God Hand cant save a dispersed soul


well, id like to refer back to Roa as a counter-example for all the "soul -> akasha is absolute", if Roa can do it, i'm pretty sure a god would atleast have a small chance, and secondly @ underlined part: yeah, bad example of mine, but just a note: that example was only if the condition of "the heroic spirit is summoned from the throne, and is the actual soul, and not a mere copy" was true, so it was a dependant example.

If there's a reason CNM cant negate God Hand, it's pretty much Shiki cant see any dot to begin with.

well, thats just whats commonly accepted :P, can't kill something thats already dead...

Now some people started to say "Higher Mystery cancel Mystery" and say CNM should have low rank of Mystery/un rank, so a God granted ability should win
Well, not necessary when facing each other, a Mystery/concept will negate another Mystery/Concept, more like, they only negate each other when they are in direct conflict with each other, on other case, they merely exploit loopholes of each other
take Gae Bolg and Fragarach for example
One is "I hit you heart no matter what, unless you are super lucky", one is "I hit before you no matter what"
they exploit each other, Fragarach "Hit first", but Gae Bolg "hit anyway", result: both die
Now Excalibur vs Fragarach
One is "This sword cut anything" , one is "I hit before you no matter what"
well, Fragarach "hit first", Excalibur "can cut anything, but couldnt be used", result: Saber was defeated

Can you say Fragarach concept/mystery is higher than Excalibur, or Gae Bolg's one is higher than Excalibur? No (Gae Bolg's Pierce Lance of Death Thorn ability most likely cant win again God Hand while a fully charge Excalibur could do the work, like Illya admitted), but in this case, Fragarach took advantage of Excalibur's concept/mystery loopholes and won, despite being even lower in rank (D/A compare to A++).

Karen said something akin to 'the better concept is one that do thing with less tear", as in, has less weakness to be exploited.


fragarach turns the situation into something like "Saber never used excalibur at that moment", so Fragarach Vs Excalibur never "happened" (or it did, but then that event was re-written so that it "didn't")
it never became a "mystery vs mystery" just "person with Hax sword gets killed before she can use it"
+ Excalibur isn't "sword that can cut anything"

fuyuki: "The attack of the enemy that's released is wiped out as it's returned into an attack that "couldn't happen," the law of the world, the absolute system of time. After all, no matter how powerful or fast the attack is, it won't do anything because the enemy that is defeated first won't have a chance to attack. "

If CNM concept could exploit God Hand's loopholes and kill Berserker, then that's it, I dont see "higher mystery cancel lesser Mystery"
Beside, CNM rank as a Mystery is unknown, it may be anywhere between F and EX

higher mystery beats lesser mystery
thats how it works officially
the more well know a mystery is, the less powerful it becomes

here's Touko's example: lets say you have an ability/knowledge that will get you 10 dollars, if you tell someone else this ability, it now becomes two people with the ability to create 5 dollars
if 10 people know, it becomes 10 people with the ability to create 1 dollar.
although, take that however you wish :P, i wasn't directing it to Fragarach specifically.
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » August 29th, 2008, 10:04 am

And we have a Winner !!!!
The most scary person in the whole Forum is.....

ta ta ta TA!
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Unread postby serialies » August 29th, 2008, 10:05 am

zweiterversuch wrote:And we have a Winner !!!!
The most scary person in the whole Forum is.....

ta ta ta TA!
Serialies Explaining counter Lv10!!


: <
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Unread postby Einherjar » August 29th, 2008, 7:46 pm

serialies wrote:specifically in terms of the analogy at hand, i think i understand what you're saying, but wouldn't it be more like:
"monster is dead, screw the HP, drop the loot already"

No, it would be like that exactly. All games that have instant death, behind the game, the program set the hp to zero, thus killing it. The eye would be something like, erase that object from the database (not the monster database, just make that one monster as if it never existed). That also means it won't drop loot, if you look at it that way.
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Unread postby s4itox » August 31st, 2008, 6:23 am

Einherjar wrote:No, it would be like that exactly. All games that have instant death, behind the game, the program set the hp to zero, thus killing it. The eye would be something like, erase that object from the database (not the monster database, just make that one monster as if it never existed). That also means it won't drop loot, if you look at it that way.

I think the MEoDP works slightly differently than "set HP to 0". That analogy would be like "MEoDP attacks a target's weak point to inflict massive amounts of damage = die". MEoDP doesn't actually damage, it attacks the concept of an item, so I think it would be more like a "MEoDP hits lines / point of death => you're dead now, regardless of how much HP you had left and whatever abilities you have" sort of thing. I think serialies had it closest with saying it removes the time between "then" and "now": attacking the lines will make the death that happens "then" instead happen "now".
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » September 1st, 2008, 2:52 pm

Wait everybody!!
I was drinking tea when suddenly a question came to my mind.

"If Shiki could kill the poison inside Kohaku's body and the blood Saccin injected into his body, could he kill the milk that has been poured into the tea (Before they mix totally)?"

and if so, what happens to the milk?
I mean, it can stay there, with the tea, nor it can be half and half (half of the cup with tea, half with "dead" milk.)

hmmm...it makes me wonder.
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Unread postby kaerstan01 » September 1st, 2008, 3:11 pm

zweiterversuch wrote:Wait everybody!!
I was drinking tea when suddenly a question came to my mind.

"If Shiki could kill the poison inside Kohaku's body and the blood Saccin injected into his body, could he kill the milk that has been poured into the tea (Before they mix totally)?"

and if so, what happens to the milk?
I mean, it can stay there, with the tea, nor it can be half and half (half of the cup with tea, half with "dead" milk.)

hmmm...it makes me wonder.


probably it would end up by your tea being bitter again and shiki's confinement in the hospital :lol:
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Unread postby gunwarrior » September 1st, 2008, 11:01 pm

zweiterversuch wrote:Wait everybody!!
I was drinking tea when suddenly a question came to my mind.

"If Shiki could kill the poison inside Kohaku's body and the blood Saccin injected into his body, could he kill the milk that has been poured into the tea (Before they mix totally)?"

and if so, what happens to the milk?
I mean, it can stay there, with the tea, nor it can be half and half (half of the cup with tea, half with "dead" milk.)

hmmm...it makes me wonder.


Watching some FMP?

Heh, but if they mixed completely already, then the milk wouldn't be a single identity anymore, right? So then he would only see the death of the complete liquid instead of just the milk or just the tea.
Otherwise, he would be able to see the ingrediants of what was in the tea too, or at least thats my understanding of it.
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Unread postby serialies » September 2nd, 2008, 1:36 pm

Watching some FMP?

Heh, but if they mixed completely already, then the milk wouldn't be a single identity anymore, right? So then he would only see the death of the complete liquid instead of just the milk or just the tea.
Otherwise, he would be able to see the ingrediants of what was in the tea too, or at least thats my understanding of it.


he would be able to see the death of the "ingredients", not necessarily the ingredients themselves, as im sure its very difficult to see the poison inside someone mystic eyes or not, yet despite that, we have the kohaku good end.

plus, if he can differentiate poison from blood/flesh/bone, them i'm sure it wouldn't be impossible for him to differentiate milk and tea using the mysic eyes of D.
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Unread postby Rikh » September 3rd, 2008, 12:49 am

I bet shiki can spend days and days messing around with the possibilities of his eyes...
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Unread postby AvatarofRage » September 5th, 2008, 10:38 am

Well, for the whole SHIKI eyes vs Shiki eyes, in video game terms, I see it as SHIKI deals massive damage, regardless of defence, reducing HP until it hits 0

Whereas Shiki doesn't reduce HP to 0, it sets it to 0 with no transition. In that respect, SHIKI can't kill an enemy with infinite HP, because no matter how much he takes away, its still infinite, whereas Shiki can defeat said enemy, because the HP doesn't drop, but simply becomes 0. (And then, if it's a boss, they get their post-mortem special in an attempt to wipe out the whole party)...hmm...I wonder if that means Final Fantasies Odin and Yojimbo summons also have MEoDP?
As for the loot thing, it's kind of hard to determine since apart from the Earth-piece, Shiki never stabs the point of any non-vampires, and since vampires turn to dust/ash when they die anyway, we don't know what happens to the body of something whose point has been stabbed.

As for the milk, if Shiki stabbed the point of milk before it mixed, I would assume the milk would dissipate into water molecules, and other nutrients etc that composed the milk, like how when he stabbed a part of 'Earth', it stopped being 'Earth', and instead just became a big lump of dirt and rock that plants etc that happened to be sitting on Earth. After it mixed however, it would be a new concept of 'tea' instead of 'milk' and 'tea leaves'.

Now then, I seem to recall Shiki noting, when he first saw the lines, that his fingers slipped into the lines a bit, and the only reason they didn't go further was because his finger was thicker than the line. With that said, two things
A) if Shiki cut along a line with something thicker than the line (say a blade thick enough to gouge out the line, and a good 1/2 inch of flesh either side), would it still count as the line being 'cut'? (assuming the rest of the object was otherwise intact)
B) Could Shiki cut a line using something as mundane as a guitar pick, or his fingernail, or does it have to actually be a sharp thing he uses?
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Unread postby Rikh » September 5th, 2008, 3:22 pm

AvatarofRage wrote:Well, for the whole SHIKI eyes vs Shiki eyes, in video game terms, I see it as SHIKI deals massive damage, regardless of defence, reducing HP until it hits 0

Whereas Shiki doesn't reduce HP to 0, it sets it to 0 with no transition. In that respect, SHIKI can't kill an enemy with infinite HP, because no matter how much he takes away, its still infinite, whereas Shiki can defeat said enemy, because the HP doesn't drop, but simply becomes 0. (And then, if it's a boss, they get their post-mortem special in an attempt to wipe out the whole party)...hmm...I wonder if that means Final Fantasies Odin and Yojimbo summons also have MEoDP?
As for the loot thing, it's kind of hard to determine since apart from the Earth-piece, Shiki never stabs the point of any non-vampires, and since vampires turn to dust/ash when they die anyway, we don't know what happens to the body of something whose point has been stabbed.

As for the milk, if Shiki stabbed the point of milk before it mixed, I would assume the milk would dissipate into water molecules, and other nutrients etc that composed the milk, like how when he stabbed a part of 'Earth', it stopped being 'Earth', and instead just became a big lump of dirt and rock that plants etc that happened to be sitting on Earth. After it mixed however, it would be a new concept of 'tea' instead of 'milk' and 'tea leaves'.

Now then, I seem to recall Shiki noting, when he first saw the lines, that his fingers slipped into the lines a bit, and the only reason they didn't go further was because his finger was thicker than the line. With that said, two things
A) if Shiki cut along a line with something thicker than the line (say a blade thick enough to gouge out the line, and a good 1/2 inch of flesh either side), would it still count as the line being 'cut'? (assuming the rest of the object was otherwise intact)
B) Could Shiki cut a line using something as mundane as a guitar pick, or his fingernail, or does it have to actually be a sharp thing he uses?


actually i am pretty sure he can get a person with thin fingers, and have them trace the line while he is moving their hands... Works the same way with a knife at least. Also i bet if he focuses strongly enough, he cut lines in about anything, whether it be air particles, liquids, or great concepts of mystery
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Unread postby serialies » September 7th, 2008, 3:17 pm

AvatarofRage wrote:Well, for the whole SHIKI eyes vs Shiki eyes, in video game terms, I see it as SHIKI deals massive damage, regardless of defence, reducing HP until it hits 0

Whereas Shiki doesn't reduce HP to 0, it sets it to 0 with no transition. In that respect, SHIKI can't kill an enemy with infinite HP, because no matter how much he takes away, its still infinite, whereas Shiki can defeat said enemy, because the HP doesn't drop, but simply becomes 0. (And then, if it's a boss, they get their post-mortem special in an attempt to wipe out the whole party)...hmm...I wonder if that means Final Fantasies Odin and Yojimbo summons also have MEoDP?


if the hp was infinite, it means it can't die, so there wouldn't be any dot at all.
As for eye comparison; they both see lines (not so sure about dots), but SHIKI can only see it for living things, thats pretty much all you need to keep in mind. think of it as a weaker version of Shiki's eyes, limited to living things.

As for the loot thing, it's kind of hard to determine since apart from the Earth-piece, Shiki never stabs the point of any non-vampires, and since vampires turn to dust/ash when they die anyway, we don't know what happens to the body of something whose point has been stabbed.


the loot thing was a joke on my behalf...don't look into it too deeply

As for the milk, if Shiki stabbed the point of milk before it mixed, I would assume the milk would dissipate into water molecules, and other nutrients etc that composed the milk, like how when he stabbed a part of 'Earth', it stopped being 'Earth', and instead just became a big lump of dirt and rock that plants etc that happened to be sitting on Earth. After it mixed however, it would be a new concept of 'tea' instead of 'milk' and 'tea leaves'.


i don't know where your going with that :P are you saying he can or cannot defeat the notorious milk?

Now then, I seem to recall Shiki noting, when he first saw the lines, that his fingers slipped into the lines a bit, and the only reason they didn't go further was because his finger was thicker than the line. With that said, two things
A) if Shiki cut along a line with something thicker than the line (say a blade thick enough to gouge out the line, and a good 1/2 inch of flesh either side), would it still count as the line being 'cut'? (assuming the rest of the object was otherwise intact)
B) Could Shiki cut a line using something as mundane as a guitar pick, or his fingernail, or does it have to actually be a sharp thing he uses?


Akasha mechanics aside; lines are places where (to Shiki) the object is very weak/breakable, kinda like the ripping dots/line on loose leaf paper, only instead of being prone to ripping, it's prone to being cut (by Shiki).

that said, regardless of the object used, as long as it can cut the line, there shouldn't be any problem, so a carrot wouldn't work (unless it's an exceptionally thin and robust carrot), but perhaps a ice pick will (unless it's an exceptionally thick and frail ice pick).

Rikh wrote:Also i bet if he focuses strongly enough, he cut lines in about anything, whether it be air particles, liquids, or great concepts of mystery


if it has a death under the rules of gaia, there will be a dot/lines

concepts are generally (keyword: generally) a no, as like phenomena (not the current incantation, but the act of occurance overall), they don't really have an expiry date to speak of

example: shiki could perhaps "kill" a tornado (assuming he managed to get to the dot), but he can't kill the fact that tornados occur. (phenomenon)

likewise, he can stab a chair, but he can't destroy the "concept" of the chair, or the "soul" of the chair. The chair existed, someone would know what the chair looked like, there would be evidence that the chair existed, somewhere in Akasha there would probably be a little postet saying "hey, this is like, the chair *picture of the chair*" so even with a the ex-chair in pieces, the concept of the chair was never destroyed, only the chair itself.

of course, take this with a grain of salt, as the Mystic eyes of D from KnK seem to bend/twist the rules a bit.
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Unread postby NonExistence » November 11th, 2008, 7:33 pm

serialies wrote:if it has a death under the rules of gaia, there will be a dot/lines

concepts are generally (keyword: generally) a no, as like phenomena (not the current incantation, but the act of occurance overall), they don't really have an expiry date to speak of

example: shiki could perhaps "kill" a tornado (assuming he managed to get to the dot), but he can't kill the fact that tornados occur. (phenomenon)


hence why he couldn't kill warachia before he "hatched".

however, looking back at the definition of CnM, it directly interferes with the cause and effect of the object, bringing upon its predestined death and erasure of existence. that means that while he can only kill occurences of phenomenons and not the phenomenons themselves, it also inversely means that if he directly becomes one with akasha (ie. dies) he'll be able to kill phenomena, as he'll be able to reach their existences within the code of the world. however, he can't kill something when he's dead; therefore, he still can't kill phenomena.

all that up there basically means that serialies was right. hooray for randomly making up random crap.
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Unread postby -Shiki- » November 12th, 2008, 7:05 pm

correct me if i am wrong but i thought CNM ignores the consequences of the action..its more of like your line is cut, so you are dead..none more, none less..no reason for the death other than the lines being cut..and what is killed is not defined as dead..its defined as 'stopped',right?so, as long as the lines are visible, the person or object is entitled to die with the aid of CNM.. :)
thus, it doesnt matter how many lives you have, you are cut, so you are dead~~~

i think there might be mistake so sorry in advance..
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