Shiki's Eyes of Death Perception

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Unread postby zweiterversuch » August 25th, 2008, 2:22 am

Shiki and Fujino?
Tohno Shiki or Ryogi Shiki?
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Unread postby Riverl » August 25th, 2008, 2:26 am

Which Shiki shouldnt be important, since both of their eyes are called MEODP
But consider the rest of the article that I didnt quote, may be that's T.Shiki
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Unread postby Rikh » August 25th, 2008, 4:39 am

Riverl wrote:Which Shiki shouldnt be important, since both of their eyes are called MEODP
But consider the rest of the article that I didnt quote, may be that's T.Shiki

Apparently if you name your son Shiki, you have around a 1/10 chance that they can see lines of death, and 'kill' things
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Unread postby nanaya_shinya » August 25th, 2008, 5:27 am

Rikh wrote:Apparently if you name your son Shiki, you have around a 1/10 chance that they can see lines of death, and 'kill' things


There are three (or four if you count ryougi's male persona) Shiki's with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception...
"The Real" Tohno Shiki
"The Adopted" Tohno Shiki/Nanaya Shiki
and Ryogi Shiki
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Unread postby kaerstan01 » August 25th, 2008, 7:28 am

nanaya_shinya wrote:
Rikh wrote:Apparently if you name your son Shiki, you have around a 1/10 chance that they can see lines of death, and 'kill' things


There are three (or four if you count ryougi's male persona) Shiki's with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception...
"The Real" Tohno Shiki
"The Adopted" Tohno Shiki/Nanaya Shiki
and Ryogi Shiki


lol wut?! :shock: :P
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Unread postby supremehyren » August 26th, 2008, 5:42 pm

Anyway, point is, R.Shiki or Tohno Shiki, none of them is god-like
I find it amusing, when Rakkyo hasnt been made into movies, no body know her.
Now the movies, and out of nowhere appear so many people calling her godlike, godhax, blah blah.


...hey, I read it way before the movie came out, you know.... :cry:

Anyways, godhax really isn't an exaggeration. For a normal person like Tohno to kill Arcuied, even by surprise, isn't something that should be possible. Ryougi is actually less guilty of insane things than Tohno ('killing the world', etc...), but it's still a ridiculous power. For instance, compare to Asagami's 'bending'. It can 'bend' things: it's a power that can be used for destruction, and is outside of normal human abilities. However, 'bending' and 'direct death' can't be considered remotely equal, because no matter how much you 'bend' something like a True Ancestor, it won't die. It's godhax because it allows things that humans shouldn't be able to do.

I feel like I haven't conveyed my pointed as well as I'd like, but find me a single more impressive power than MEoDP, and then we can talk. People say that it's not as good as it seems, but I've yet to see anything better, except maybe for Magic.


But, not as powerful as everyone make her seem to be
first, it's the "void" R.Shiki that "can kill even God if she want" (figurative speaking, she can only fight defensively again a Servant after all, dont take it too serious)


Still, there isn't a 'void' Tohno Shiki, is there? And anyways, Ryougi generally exhibits higher physical ability than Tohno, and I'd place her normal abilities at the same as his Nanaya mode.


Her eyes never demonstrated the ability to see dots, may be she cant, or she just never bother to stab dots, or like Far side Shiki, somehow she didnt bother with finding them.


Either she can see dots, or her eyes don't work in the 'lines and dots' method. She's killed appendicitis, and that wouldn't work with a line.


Alas, stop your senseless rambling about Shiki using 2 type of eyes
at least use the right term to call his original eyes.
They are one now, human can only has a pair of eyes, or, AFAIK, Shiki only has 1 pair of eyes, not 2 or 3
It's the CNM, originally Jougan, it's not the CNM and the Jougan


Well, although I wasn't quite clear on how Jougan operated, what I meant was something more like 'two properties of eyes' instead of two physically different eyes. Kind of like how you can have both a 'see invisible' and 'see far' enhancement in video games. In other words, I thought that 'see invisible' and 'death perception' circuits had seperately opened in his eyes, instead of 'see invisible' being part of 'death perception'. Basically, you're saying that something evolved into death perception, but 'see invisible' is always there, right?

The point isnt if Shiki can see the origami or not, the point is: "He can kill it"
that's psychic/spiritual power, intangible object
To show that, Shiki CAN kill intangible stuff, unlike what most think.


No, the point is that, if he saw the hair only because of the normal abilities of a Jougan (and then was able to cut it), and not because he saw its death with the MEoDP, then he can only kill things he can see. What I mean is that, if Ryougi can kill concepts like 'intent', then Tohno can only kill intangiable things that 'exist', like spiritual power. 'Intent' doesn't exist in a physical or intangiable form; there isn't a place you can point to and say 'intent is here'. On the other hand, intangiable things like 'power' definitely hold some kind of location, the place the 'power' is acting upon. Since Ryougi can kill concepts, and Tohno can only kill 'intangiable things that exist', Ryougi has superior ability with her MEoDP.
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Unread postby Riverl » August 26th, 2008, 8:50 pm

...hey, I read it way before the movie came out, you know....

sorry, really ><, just that, well, sudden too many people gave her such credit I had to point that out





Anyways, godhax really isn't an exaggeration. For a normal person like Tohno to kill Arcuied, even by surprise, isn't something that should be possible. Ryougi is actually less guilty of insane things than Tohno ('killing the world', etc...), but it's still a ridiculous power. For instance, compare to Asagami's 'bending'. It can 'bend' things: it's a power that can be used for destruction, and is outside of normal human abilities. However, 'bending' and 'direct death' can't be considered remotely equal, because no matter how much you 'bend' something like a True Ancestor, it won't die. It's godhax because it allows things that humans shouldn't be able to do.

I feel like I haven't conveyed my pointed as well as I'd like, but find me a single more impressive power than MEoDP, and then we can talk. People say that it's not as good as it seems, but I've yet to see anything better, except maybe for Magic.

I never mean to say it's not impressive
Just that, uhm, it's not that superb like it seem, encountering quite a number of limitations, physical ability of the user is one such limit (they need to be able to cut/stab the thing) for example.



Still, there isn't a 'void' Tohno Shiki, is there? And anyways, Ryougi generally exhibits higher physical ability than Tohno, and I'd place her normal abilities at the same as his Nanaya mode.

Well, there's a Satsujinki, who fought a Magus/swordwoman, who could stand again "the dog of the Burial Agency" (aka Ciel), and he won without even hurting her, to the point that she was amazed she didn't die out right from the start (although she couldnt use her sorcery, but well, it mean at least his physical ability is much more superior compare to her, probably on par with or higher than Ciel, who, like "Void" R.Shiki, can fight defensively again a Servant). His eyes also leveled up (to what extend is unknown). That's only 1 year after Tsukihime.
But he's not canon... yet :lol:
And I think there's a Reason Nasu keep seperating R.Shiki and "Void" personality when talking about her power.

Either she can see dots, or her eyes don't work in the 'lines and dots' method. She's killed appendicitis, and that wouldn't work with a line.

Uhm, Shiki killed poison with lines, or so I remember, also killed its effect on the body too, just like a dot stab...
That and vampirism
weird stuffs happen...
If I'm not mistaken anyway...
Well, although I wasn't quite clear on how Jougan operated, what I meant was something more like 'two properties of eyes' instead of two physically different eyes. Kind of like how you can have both a 'see invisible' and 'see far' enhancement in video games. In other words, I thought that 'see invisible' and 'death perception' circuits had seperately opened in his eyes, instead of 'see invisible' being part of 'death perception'. Basically, you're saying that something evolved into death perception, but 'see invisible' is always there, right?

It's actually Shiki's brain that proceed the information about death, and it's his Jougan "see the invisible" property that let him see death when work with his brain as a pair (the same for R.Shiki, she proceed the information inside her brain), as in the "see invisible" circuit is what allow him to "see death", its essentially the same, not two property.
Or at least that how I understand it.



What I mean is that, if Ryougi can kill concepts like 'intent', then Tohno can only kill intangiable things that 'exist', like spiritual power. 'Intent' doesn't exist in a physical or intangiable form; there isn't a place you can point to and say 'intent is here'.
On the other hand, intangiable things like 'power' definitely hold some kind of location, the place the 'power' is acting upon. Since Ryougi can kill concepts, and Tohno can only kill 'intangiable things that exist', Ryougi has superior ability with her MEoDP.

Uhm, she still need to reach it to kill it, it's not like she can stab herself and kill someone's intent 2 km away
So, the intent is actually "somewhere out there" in her vision
Its like origami, in our eyes, isn't here or there, but in a person who has jougan eyes, it's somewhere out there.
vampirism is something that... uhm, I dont think we can say exactly it's here or there, but Shiki killed it from his body anyway;
the problem is, yes, Shiki eyes haven't reached R.Shiki's level and cant see/kill something like intention, at least not yet.

BTW, when I said the point is, I was referring to my point when talking about that..., not your actually, since many keep saying Shiki cant kill intangible things *sweat*
Okay, I admit this part is messed up, you were talking about one thing, and me another...
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Unread postby Rikh » August 26th, 2008, 9:59 pm

also its a lesser known fact that the mystic eyes of death perception also give a small stat bonus to Depth perception
pun ftw..
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » August 26th, 2008, 10:35 pm

Wow....
I have a question for you guys about the MEDP.

When Shiki saved kohaku from her dead in Hisui's good ending he had to use bandages or something to cover his eyes,right? but he still could see the lines and dots of death soooo the question is.
If Shiki's eyes were to dissapear (I don't know, they exploded or something) would he still be able to see death?

I mean he sees dead with his brain, doesn't he?
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Unread postby Rikh » August 27th, 2008, 12:05 am

zweiterversuch wrote:Wow....
I have a question for you guys about the MEDP.

When Shiki saved kohaku from her dead in Hisui's good ending he had to use bandages or something to cover his eyes,right? but he still could see the lines and dots of death soooo the question is.
If Shiki's eyes were to dissapear (I don't know, they exploded or something) would he still be able to see death?

I mean he sees dead with his brain, doesn't he?


umm... good question...
I think if he had received replacement eyes, he would be able to do the same (whatever puppets/dolls that people use in the nasuverse for example)
but if his eyes were taken away, i believe he wouldn't be able to see any lines. Since the glasses only affect his sight, it must be based off his eyes. Or maybe the glasses just project a small radius of MEDP Cancellation around them
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Unread postby kaerstan01 » August 27th, 2008, 12:22 am

i think the glasses is made of simply an "indestructible" kind of material therefore doesn't display even a single line or point of death preventing shiki to strain his own brain and also, basing the fact that it is an "eyeglasses", it really helped his vision to see things clearly without causing any strenuous side effects that would be present if his glasses were to be taken off
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » August 27th, 2008, 12:33 am

Now...that makes a lot of sense.
Really, no joking.
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Unread postby abscess » August 27th, 2008, 12:36 am

kaerstan01 wrote:i think the glasses is made of simply an "indestructible" kind of material therefore doesn't display even a single line or point of death preventing shiki to strain his own brain and also, basing the fact that it is an "eyeglasses", it really helped his vision to see things clearly without causing any strenuous side effects that would be present if his glasses were to be taken off

hmm... I think that it's stated somewhere that Aoko stole the glasses from Tohko and the only thing she did was add some spell or potion or some... thing! that made the glasses undestructible, but the "hiding the lines thingy" was made by Tohko.
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » August 27th, 2008, 12:53 am

abscess wrote:
kaerstan01 wrote:i think the glasses is made of simply an "indestructible" kind of material therefore doesn't display even a single line or point of death preventing shiki to strain his own brain and also, basing the fact that it is an "eyeglasses", it really helped his vision to see things clearly without causing any strenuous side effects that would be present if his glasses were to be taken off

hmm... I think that it's stated somewhere that Aoko stole the glasses from Tohko and the only thing she did was add some spell or potion or some... thing! that made the glasses undestructible, but the "hiding the lines thingy" was made by Tohko.



But it still makes sense. I mean, if they are indestructible, they have no death on them.
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Unread postby Rikh » August 27th, 2008, 3:44 am

So shiki can not see lines of death with the glasses on, nor can he see lines of death on the glasses, since they are indestructible (maybe?)...
I can see a lot of uses for indestructible glasses. Like, he can use it as a shield to block arcueids attacks XD
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Unread postby kaerstan01 » August 27th, 2008, 1:38 pm

hmm... but as i recall, there was an occasion wherein his eyes were getting much stronger that he could see cracks past through his own glasses... or not... maybe i should start re-"playing" this game again from the start :oops: :P

if only there was an aoko(hottest "sensei" /magic user in the whole type-moon universe :P) route, it'd more motivating... fantasizes* :P :lol: (dont mind me :P)
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Unread postby nanaya_shinya » August 27th, 2008, 2:39 pm

yes kaerstan, that DID happen in some occasions in Tsukihime... which explains why Shiki will get a blindfold in Tsukihime 2 (IF Type-Moon is really going to create it).
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Unread postby kaerstan01 » August 27th, 2008, 3:10 pm

nanaya_shinya wrote:yes kaerstan, that DID happen in some occasions in Tsukihime... which explains why Shiki will get a blindfold in Tsukihime 2 (IF Type-Moon is really going to create it).


<-------------- also hopes for a tsukhime sequel :wink: 8) :D

a more matured Shiki + an upgraded MEoDP = bloody BADASS Satsujinki :twisted:

but first!!
.....
.......
...........
...............
the remake... :P
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Unread postby Einherjar » August 27th, 2008, 3:31 pm

Having Shiki bloody badass (aka Nanaya nightmare like) kinda defeats the theme in tsukihime.
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Unread postby kaerstan01 » August 28th, 2008, 1:13 pm

Einherjar wrote:Having Shiki bloody badass (aka Nanaya nightmare like) kinda defeats the theme in tsukihime.


nah... shiki would still be the same shiki that we know, exceot that he would be 10x more of a badass when facing DAA''s compared to his younger self
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